valve stem seals

[jestal]

Can anyone positively verify that the valve stem seals changed on the later model FJR's???

I have called several dealers including "Guru Glen" and others and no one seems to know anything about the valve stem seals changing. That was reported earlier as a possible clue as to the origin of the tick issue. I know the part number has NOT changed but supposedly the story was that the seal design changed to a wetter design.

I wanted to verify this just to confirm the TICK suspicions as well as to help me decide what to do with my 03 to prevent the TICK from occurring in the future.

I am at the point with my engine that I can install the new seals if I can be sure that there is such a thing as "new seals" ....or.... modify my original valve stem seals to let more oil down the guide. I had hoped that the seal design was the typical valve stem seal with a small garter spring around the perimeter of the seal. I was just going to pop the garter spring off to make the seal more "wet" and let it go at that. But. The seals are a simple molded silicon or viton seal with no garter spring. Cutting the seal is a possibility but that is a hit or miss approach that could result in blue smoke and several trial and error approaches. Given the difficulty of the surgery I would rather just do it once so the wetter seals (if they exist) would be the obvious choice.

FYI.... The cams are out as per valve clearance procedures. Clearances were perfect BTW. I made an adapter for shop air into the cylinder to hole the valves closed. Another specialty tool was fabbed out of plastic PVC pipe to lever off an aluminum bracket mounted to the exhaust port studs to depress the valve spring retainer to remove the keys/retainer/spring. So.... I'm looking at the seals and have pulled one off to figure what to do to insure no tick in the future. A piece of copper pipe. slotted, with a cap (slotted) on the end will pull the seal off in about 3 seconds. Any ideas....???

 

[Toecutter]

I just spoke to Cindy at the local service place that is fixing my ticking '04. She said they updated the stem seal part number and they have the new seals there for my bike, just waiting on the exhaust valves. I asked and she said I could come down there and check out the parts personally, so I plan to do that later today, and I'll post up about what I learn.

 

[MCRIDER007]

So.... I'm looking at the seals and have pulled one off to figure what to do to insure no tick in the future.  A piece of copper pipe. slotted, with a cap (slotted) on the end will pull the seal off in about 3 seconds.      Any ideas....???

This is interesting because I thought the entire head would have to be removed to replace the seals. Does this mean that Yamaha could have a recall to replace the seals or have the seals replaced during a valve adjustment?

 

[Toecutter]

Does this mean that Yamaha could have a recall to replace the seals or have the seals replaced during a valve adjustment?

Could have? Definitely. Likely to happen? Bet not, unless you request it during the service (meaning pay extra).

Let's start a grass roots campaign for the recall!

 

[Scab]

Jestal, what is the condition of the seals? Do they appear starved or improperly installed, etc.? Any notible wear on anything? And why do you have your engine apart?

Just wondering for background info.

 

[jestal]

The parts list does not show an updated or changed number for the later model years.....but.....I did not ever look at nor record the part number of the valve stem seal back in 2003... Yamaha may have revised the part number and with the click of a key simply superceded all the valve stem seal part numbers with the new number for all model years at the same time. I was just looking for some reference that the number has really been changed at some time and/or the part really revised.

My engine is apart just like you would do if you were setting the valve lash basically. The cam cover is off, the cams are out and the lifters/lash caps are out. The motor is still in the frame....etc... I really don't want to get into pulling the head at this point. I'll wait til it ticks to do that....LOL.

Taking the retainers/keys/springs apart on the engine is a pretty tricky situation. Not something that I would suspect Yamaha would issue a service bulletine or recall to do. If they had every FJR torn down that far to replace the seals on the motor they would end up with far more "repair" induced major engine failures than if they just deal with the tickers that show up. Just my opinion, of course.

Secondly, as far as a field fix or preventative fix...I doubt that it would be very successful even if all the early FJR's were done. By the time tickers showed up the damage was likely already done to all of the motors so adding more oil via wetter seals wouldn't really prevent many tickers for the future and then the job would have to be done again. Best for customer satisfaction to just fix the tickers when they happen. They would have to be fixed anyway if the wetter seals didn't cause the guides to heal or recover from scuffing and damage done already AND you avoid the tearing all the engines down and doing an invasive procedure that could do more harm than good in the long run.

My suspicion from what I have seen is that most all of the early FJR motors will wear exhaust valve guides to some extent. Why some go more catostrphic and tick is not something I totally understand but it is not unusual based on operator break in, specific prelube used on that particular engine (which might change from engine to engine but is likely the same for all the valves in any given engine), the operators duty cycle, how much time at WOT/heavy throttle the engine has seen, etc.... I have seen this in passenger car engines in the field where the exact same parts and pieces would lead to heavy wear in some cases and little or no complaint in the vast majority of others. The "dry" seal could just exacerbate the tendency to wear under the worst case conditions and as a result show up as tickers on this engine. Once again, just my opinion from what I have seen and read so far.

You CAN replace the seals with the head on the engine but it is rather tricky to do. Time consuming and tedious. Not for the faint of heart. Budweiser does not help with the process either. There is definitely the possibility of dropping the keys down where they do not belong, getting the keys missassembled into the retainer, etc. Possibilities then include loose/missing parts floating around inside the engine, dropping a valve due to missassembled valve stem keys when the engine is run, dropping a valve down into the cylinder while the spring/retainer/keys are removed, etc.... Plus, there are going to be special tools required that would need to be designed and built and sent to dealers. Those would be far beyond the elementary tools I fabbed to make them bulletproof for dealer techs to use. FYI...it is a bit of a trick to depress the valve spring, get the retainer centered over the valve stem, get the two keys into place and release the spring without dropping the valve, keys, retainer and to keep the keys into the right place....all within the confines of the chassis the engine is sitting in.

Mine, I was hoping, might be an exception due to the low miles on mine so far and the fact that it was broken in fairly gently and hasn't really been flogged hard or run at high RPM for any extended periods. Just an occasionaly blast in lower gears. My riding so far has not lent itself to much high speed cruising so the motor has been treated pretty gently. I looked at the exposed valve stems at full lift inside the exhaust ports with a borescope and the stems look unscathed with no scoring or scuffing that I could see so I was also hoping to do something remedial to correct the situation before it could escalate into catastrophic wear. Plus, there is this side of me "that has jus' got's to know" so I took it apart to see if I could see what was going on. One thing led to another and I ended up with the springs off and the valve seals on the bench.LOL. They look perfect and everything inside the motor looks perfect. They appear to be NOK seals so I have a call into the NOK rep in DTW to see if I can get any info from him but they are usually pretty quite about other customers products if they are NOK seals.

I'll force a lot of high ZDP engine assembly lube down the exhaust valve guides when I put it together (by applying vacuum to the exhaust port you can suck a lot of lube down the guide) and either use the revised seals if I can confirm that they are indeed revised or just reinstall the OEM seals and cut the lip to allow more oil in and hope for not too much smoke....LOL.

 

[markjenn]

jestal, another great post. Keep them coming.

Why are you into the engine with low miles? Are the valves in spec? I'm currently planning on running out to the specified valve inspection interval on mine (which now has 10K), but I've always wondered if a preventative valve clearance inspection after break in might be a good idea to catch the few times where things change during break in.

- Mark

 

[MCRIDER007]

I've always wondered if a preventative valve clearance inspection after break in might be a good idea to catch the few times where things change during break in.

I used to have the same concerns but I read somewhere that the manufactures do not recommend early valve checks because all of the various parts that wear may not be totally broken in and if you adjust a valve clearance early you may have to re-adjust it later. It sounded like the clearances are set on the assembly line with the expectation there will be some changes and some of the valve clearances may get slightly out of spec during breakin but will be back in spec by the first valve service.

I do not have any experience that supports or refutes this logic.

 

[Feejer/Weejer man]

My ticker will be together by Friday. Do I need any info on a break-in prcedure. Do I need to do anything special.? <_<

 

[Dangerous Dave]

or just reinstall the OEM seals and cut the lip to allow more oil in and hope for not too much smoke....LOL.

Jestal, I hope when you say "reinstall oem seals" that you mean fresh factory ones and not the old ones you just took off. I would have to strongly encourage you to not reinstall the old seals. Toyota has a particular engine in the family (which I shall leave nameless) that's notorious for valve seal failures. Biggest symptom is a BIG puff of blue smoke on cold startup. I realize this isn't the same situation at all as what the FJR is suffering, but my point was that I've replaced ALOT of valve seals! I believe most japanese manufacturers use the same type of valve stem seal. These seals have a slight "rib" on the inside which snaps down onto the valve guide and retains it. That rib is fairly easily damaged on removal and I'm not sure it could be trusted to stay on the guide if reinstalled. The pisser is that they're ridiculously expensive little bastards! I devised a setup very similar to what you described for replacing the seals without removing the head.

Rather than repeating you, I'll just concur with ALL the cautions you mentioned for this operation...definately not for the faint of heart or anyone who's not extremely mechanically inclined. I'd also have to caution you against nicking the seals to allow more oil to bypass them, lest ye have a smoker. If you don't see any galling on the valve stems (you've got your own borescope?? ), lube the stems, put on fresh seals (lube those too before assembly), put it back together and go ride.

MHO,

 

[radman]

I was going to add my 2 cents, but changed my mind.

 

[Luke]

2 cents was all the change that was in your mind!

Sorry, Rad, I couldn't resist. That one was wide open.

 

[deano]

Jestal, My Canadian 04 was fixed in sept 05 I was told then the "new" valve seal # was 33m-12119-09-00, the old # is 33m-12119-00-00, Hope this helps.

 

[jestal]

Jestal, My Canadian 04 was fixed in sept 05 I was told then the "new" valve seal # was 33m-12119-09-00, the old # is 33m-12119-00-00, Hope this helps.

Deano, from what I have been able to surmise you got the correct part numbers. The dissappointing thing, from what I see so far, is that if you simply order new OEM valve stem seals from Yamaha off the current published parts list you get the original seals, the -00- seals....!!! Those are what are currently shown in the parts list on the Yamaha parts-on-line website and at the dealers. ONLY if a special service case is opened and reviewed before the ticker complaint bike is fixed does the shop get alerted to the availability of the -09- seals. I am assuming that the -09- seals are the reported "wetter" seals until I can tell otherwise. It would be interesting for anyone who has had their ticker fixed to review the repair order and see which part number seal was used for the repair.

I have the -09- seals enroute for comparison.

 

[jestal]

or just reinstall the OEM seals and cut the lip to allow more oil in and hope for not too much smoke....LOL.

Jestal, I hope when you say "reinstall oem seals" that you mean fresh factory ones and not the old ones you just took off. I would have to strongly encourage you to not reinstall the old seals. Toyota has a particular engine in the family (which I shall leave nameless) that's notorious for valve seal failures. Biggest symptom is a BIG puff of blue smoke on cold startup. I realize this isn't the same situation at all as what the FJR is suffering, but my point was that I've replaced ALOT of valve seals! I believe most japanese manufacturers use the same type of valve stem seal. These seals have a slight "rib" on the inside which snaps down onto the valve guide and retains it. That rib is fairly easily damaged on removal and I'm not sure it could be trusted to stay on the guide if reinstalled. The pisser is that they're ridiculously expensive little bastards! I devised a setup very similar to what you described for replacing the seals without removing the head.

Rather than repeating you, I'll just concur with ALL the cautions you mentioned for this operation...definately not for the faint of heart or anyone who's not extremely mechanically inclined. I'd also have to caution you against nicking the seals to allow more oil to bypass them, lest ye have a smoker. If you don't see any galling on the valve stems (you've got your own borescope?? ), lube the stems, put on fresh seals (lube those too before assembly), put it back together and go ride.

MHO,

Yes, I meant new OEM seals. I realize the damage that can occur removing valve stem seals like this. There is a metal collar molded inside the seal itself that the elastomer MUST adhere to in order to retain the integrity of the seal. Often, during removal, the elastomer is stressed to the point that it tears away from the metal collar inside. The damage is invisible but the seal integrity is not what it should be.

Installing the seals onto the guide is a bit tricky to avoid damage, too, as the seal ID must be prelubed to prevent shearing the elastomer away from the collar when pressing it onto the guide. That is likely where the problem occurs that you mention.

Deliberately nicking the seals could certainly lead to a puff of smoke on startup. Not something I want but that would be preferrable to me to having a ticker later on. At least if it puffed smoke and never ticked it could be a clue as to what was going on. I was wrestling with the possibilites of the downsides of what I was attempting which prompted this post to see if more info was out there. But I did want to try something rather than just button it back up.

I don't have my own but between a couple of my buddies there are a few "community tools" floating around that we each bought to prevent duplicating rarely used items. So one is available. Each of use borrows from the other when necessary.

 

[jestal]

My ticker will be together by Friday. Do I need any info on a break-in prcedure. Do I need to do anything special.? <_<

Check what parts yours is going together with and if you are not getting the -09- seals as called out above then insist on them....or nothing has changed from what caused it to tick in the first place.

 

[jestal]

jestal, another great post. Keep them coming.
Why are you into the engine with low miles? Are the valves in spec? I'm currently planning on running out to the specified valve inspection interval on mine (which now has 10K), but I've always wondered if a preventative valve clearance inspection after break in might be a good idea to catch the few times where things change during break in.

- Mark

Curiousity, mainly. I figured as long as it was apart I would check the valve clearance but I took it apart to look at the parts and the valve stem seals to see what might be there to cause the problem or what might be done to prevent it in the future on mine so as to see what could be learned about it. Curiosity, yes.

 

[jestal]

I've always wondered if a preventative valve clearance inspection after break in might be a good idea to catch the few times where things change during break in.

I used to have the same concerns but I read somewhere that the manufactures do not recommend early valve checks because all of the various parts that wear may not be totally broken in and if you adjust a valve clearance early you may have to re-adjust it later. It sounded like the clearances are set on the assembly line with the expectation there will be some changes and some of the valve clearances may get slightly out of spec during breakin but will be back in spec by the first valve service.

I do not have any experience that supports or refutes this logic.

With an overhead cam engine and direct acting tappets there is little or nothing to wear or change regarding valve clearances. Theoretically, the cam/lifter interface could "wear" and open the valve clearances. Theoretically, the valve seat and valve seat face could erode and close the valve clearance. We are talking minor minor changes here.

Practically speaking, nothing moves. If there is change or wear significant enough to change the valve clearance "out of spec" then something is wrong. Cam lobes rarely, if ever, loose a few thousandths of an inch. They either loose nothing or wipe the cam lobe. Same with lifter faces. Same with valve seats and valve seat faces. If the valve train is correctly designed and all the materials and processes are right then nothing really moves.

Pretty solid evidence of this even with "tickers" that tick because of excessive valve guide clearance (which causes excessive clearance in certain dynamic situations of the valve/lifter motion) but measure perfect for valve clearance at the mandatory check before it is declared a "ticker".....

 

[Scab]

Well Jestal, I for one appreciate what you are trying to do. Never know when a trek into the forbidden territory will reveal the ultimate answer. While the question of why is hotly debated, it is mostly speculation and assumption. I appreciate your boldness to go where few of us would dare.

And all just to "see". Keep diggin'.