valve stem seals

[Feejer/Weejer man]

Yes mine were the 09 seal # at least thats what the service tech said. He told me that the exhaust seal number had changed and was different than what was on his parts list. Yamaha sent the part needed he did not have to itemize the list for repair.

 

[markjenn]

jestal, another great post.  Keep them coming.
Why are you into the engine with low miles?  Are the valves in spec?  I'm currently planning on running out to the specified valve inspection interval on mine (which now has 10K), but I've always wondered if a preventative valve clearance inspection after break in might be a good idea to catch the few times where things change during break in.

- Mark

Curiousity, mainly. I figured as long as it was apart I would check the valve clearance but I took it apart to look at the parts and the valve stem seals to see what might be there to cause the problem or what might be done to prevent it in the future on mine so as to see what could be learned about it. Curiosity, yes.

So what were your measured clearances before adjustment and what mileage is on your bike?

Thanks,

- Mark

 

[deano]

My exhaust valve seals have been replaced with updated "09" seals. My mechanic had to do a valve clearance adjustment as well, they where out of spec when recieved back from machine shop.

 

[jestal]

So what were your measured clearances before adjustment and what mileage is on your bike?

All of the exhauts valves were just a trifle over .008 for clearance. I just checked for a go/nogo with .008 and .009 feeler gauges and they would all allow an .008 and not an .009 feeler gauge. The spec is .0071-.0098 so they are all well in range.

The intakes measured .0065 to .007 against the spec of .0059 - .0087. Some were a tight .007 feeler gauge and one cylinder actually was too tight for a .007 guage and it measured .0065 on both valves. Once again, all were well within the correct range.

I only have a little less than 2000 miles on my engine. I wouldn't really expect these numbers to change over miles but I'll see if I ever get chance to ride it much....LOL.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Jestal --

How does oil get thrown on the valve stems? It would appear that the valve lifter (inverted bucket) covers over the top of the valve stem and spring. The oil to the lifters is delivered via a hole/port in the camshaft. The oil enters the camshafts at one end near the chain and is metered out via the ports at each cluster of valves. The oil finds its way to the top of the lifters, works its way down the side of the lifters, and then drops down and flows to the drain at the front of the head between cylinders 1 & 2.

Does the oil puddled around the bottom of the valve springs get splashed onto the valve stems as the springs flex up and down?

Looking at a cross section of the engine one notices that the intake valves are oriented almost perfectly vertical for this slanted forward design. Conversely, the exhaust valves are tilted forward at a fairly large angle. I wonder if this has any effect on uniform valve lubrication?

Lastly, do the valves tend to rotate as they move up and down?

 

[Toecutter]

Conversely, the exhaust valves are tilted forward at a fairly large angle. I wonder if this has any effect on uniform valve lubrication?

I'd bet it does. The only way for oil to get to the guides is gravity, and since the exhaust valves never experience vacuum, only pressure, that's two strikes against them getting adequate lubrication. Then there's the heat factor...

 

[jestal]

If you look at the head with the cam cover off there are pockets in the head at each lifter that traps oil just by the tappet. Pretty typical for a direct acting valve train so as to avoid dry starts. The oil puddles just beside the tappets, especially on the exhaust side so there is plenty of oil to be thrown onto the tappet and the spring itself. There is a lot of oil flying around inside that cover when the engine is running. The action of the valve spring flexing will throw quite a bit of oil on the valve stem. I suspect that Yamaha did quite a bit of work in that area as the valve springs themselves will never live if they don't have enough oil flowing over them to cool them at higher RPM's. I don't see anything in the head or lube design that would cause the tick issue, really.

The oil won't just drain down the moving parts. If you could see inside that cover with the engine running the cam and lobes are slinging oil everywhere and the motion of the springs will move a lot of oil around also.

Valves will usually rotate to some extent, especially at higher RPM's. Automotive engines often had valve rotators due to the lower RPM operation of the older pushrod engines. Valve rotators are pretty much a thing of the past in higher revving, modern engines. Plus, valve rotation is not nearly as critical with the higher quality valve steels and powdered metal valve seat inserts used with aluminum head, modern engines.

 

[jestal]

Well, I finally got around to wrapping up this episode of FJR re-engineering.

With the tools I ginned up it was pretty easy to remove the valve springs and seals with the engine intact and replace the seals with the new part number pieces.

After looking carefully at the seals Yamaha is supplying for the ticker repairs (the -09- seals) they appear to be a slighty wetter design so I used those.

While I had the valve springs and seals off I also polished each of the exhaust valve stems where they stick out of the valve guide with 600 emery paper to add a bit of a hone pattern to the valve stem to retain some oil and carry it past the seal. The finish is pretty fine but should help with oil retention on the stem and into the guide.

I also pushed a ZDP rich assembly lube into the exhaust valve guide/stem interface to help set up some "prelube" there when I do start it so as to hopefully help any scuffing that might have occurred already to stop scuffing and burnish itself so as to prevent it from escalating into catostrophic wear. Hopefully, then, the wetter seals and the bit of a hone pattern on the valve stems will keep enough oil in the guides for the long haul so as to prevent it from becoming a ticker.

All-in-all removing the cams and doing the job was not that difficult as it turned out. Time consuming and no place to get in a hurry but nothing too technicaly difficult.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

While I had the valve springs and seals off I also polished each of the exhaust valve stems where they stick out of the valve guide with 600 emery paper to add a bit of a hone pattern to the valve stem to retain some oil and carry it past the seal. The finish is pretty fine but should help with oil retention on the stem and into the guide.

Hmmmmm, not sure that was a good idea. What's to stop that from "honing" the inside of the seal? In the same way that an abraded fork tube is the demise of most fork seals, don't you think this might destroy the sealing surface of the valve seals over time? 600 grit isn't for polishing, 2000 grit is. Yamaha already re-engineered it...why go farther?

Just my thoughts,

 

[Toecutter]

While I had the valve springs and seals off I also polished each of the exhaust valve stems where they stick out of the valve guide with 600 emery paper to add a bit of a hone pattern to the valve stem to retain some oil and carry it past the seal.  The finish is pretty fine but should help with oil retention on the stem and into the guide. 

Hmmmmm, not sure that was a good idea. What's to stop that from "honing" the inside of the seal? In the same way that an abraded fork tube is the demise of most fork seals, don't you think this might destroy the sealing surface of the valve seals over time? 600 grit isn't for polishing, 2000 grit is. Yamaha already re-engineered it...why go farther?

Yamaha also engineered the ticking motor and the infamous alternator, to name a couple. Fork seals need to keep all the oil in, while stem seals need to pass some oil. Perhaps they don't pass enough. I'd rather use a little oil than have to get my head rebuilt every 20,000 miles. Time will tell if this was a good idea or not, and I hope it was. I'd probably do something like this myself if I was industrious enough to do my own valve adjustment and no longer owned a warranty.

 

[jestal]

While I had the valve springs and seals off I also polished each of the exhaust valve stems where they stick out of the valve guide with 600 emery paper to add a bit of a hone pattern to the valve stem to retain some oil and carry it past the seal.  The finish is pretty fine but should help with oil retention on the stem and into the guide.  

Hmmmmm, not sure that was a good idea. What's to stop that from "honing" the inside of the seal? In the same way that an abraded fork tube is the demise of most fork seals, don't you think this might destroy the sealing surface of the valve seals over time? 600 grit isn't for polishing, 2000 grit is. Yamaha already re-engineered it...why go farther?

Just my thoughts,

I understand your concern. Same thing I thought about, too.

The valve stem is chrome plated. 600 wet/dry with the light contact "honing" or polishing I did didn't really change the surface of the valve stem much. Hopefully just enough to carry a little more oil past the stem seals. If the stem seals get eaten up....well....I know how to change them without taking the motor apart, don't I?? LOL

Chrome valve stems are commonly buffed anyway at the valve manufacturer. Chrome plating valve stem has a hidden hazard of leaving chrome nodules on the surface of the valve stem. They are invisible but are as aggressive as a file in eating up valve guides. Stems are robotically buffed or honed to eliminate the possibility of chrome nodules so most chromed valve stems have a surface finish like this anyway. If the supplier thinks their chroming process is in control they may skip the honing or buffing process and "take a chance". I looked at the Yamaha valve stems under an SEM and they do not look like they were buffed. I was looking for the chrome nodules as a suspect for the tick problem but didn't find any evidence of them.

As far as the polishing I did causing a problem it is very very low risk. Creating a high spot on the surface will cause wear and tearing up a seal. Creating low spots in the surface (like the polishing with the 600) will just carry oil. Low spots are usually fine. High spots are what you want to avoid. That is why you can take a nicked fork tube and polish it with 600 (to remove the high spots) and it will still work fine.

I have a Honda CBX from 1979. Those bikes were notorious for eating up fork seals. They would only run about 8000 miles and start to leak. The cure is to take the fork tubes apart and thoroughly polish them with 600. My fork seal like went from 8000 miles to at least 30,000 as that is how many miles on the seals in the bike now with no leaks. The surface was "too smooth" to retain oil and the seals were working dry and would tear up.

As far as re-thinking Yamaha's "engineering".... Two responses. One, their engineering has proven to lead to tickers. I'll trust my own engineering at this point as I have a bit of experience in that area myself. Quite a bit in fact. Secondly, You telling me this is like the pot calling the kettle black. LOL. If Yamaha's engineering was so good why did you rip your forks out and sent them to be modified, or change tires, or change shocks, or change seats, or ???, or ???. LOL. Seriously, I suspect they missed something with the valve stem seal performance. Unusual but true. They may have gone with their conventional wisdom from other engines and ended up picking too dry of a seal or maybe the valve stem surface finish changed and they didn't realize it, or ???? **** happens. React to it.

BTW. When I had my forks apart I took the damper rod that looks like a normal steel rod. Polished the heck out of it with 600. Looks shiny like chrome now. Should help the new damper rod seals I installed seal better and have less friction. 600 will definitely polish. Depends on what you are polishing.

 

[Scab]

For what it's worth, I'm with Jestal on the re-engineering. There are actually very few, if any, things in this world that cannot be improved upon. Yamaha is not omnipotent here, people. If they were, we would never have had a ticker.

My hat's off to Jestal for not sittin' there whinning and worrying about the tick issue and twidlin' thumbs waiting on someone else to fix it. The man's in up to his eyeballs in this and has his money where his mouth is. Does he have the answer? Time will tell. Did yami fix this on the '06? Time again will tell.

From what little I actually know on this issue. My money is on Jestal. But, hey, I'm a gambler.

 

[skyway]

As far as re-thinking Yamaha's "engineering".... Two responses. One, their engineering has proven to lead to tickers.
I'll trust my  Seriously, I suspect they missed something with the valve stem seal performance. Unusual but true. They may have gone with their conventional wisdom from other engines and ended up picking too dry of a seal or maybe the valve stem surface finish changed and they didn't realize it, or ????

I'm not sure that Yamaha has ever publicaly admitted to the real cause here, other than taking care of its customers when it occurs.

One thing I know for sure is, the engineers who are behind the valve train design in Japan (or wherever) know exactly what is causing the problem. I would like to have been a fly on the wall during the staff meetings when the problems were being discussed. It would have saved a whole lot of bandwidth and potential grey hair on FJR forums worldwide for sure.

I wonder if Yamaha will follow the lead of Ducati, and open up a direct blog with its customers? Nothing wrong with admitting results or failures IMO.

 

[Scab]

Realistically, I don't think it would economically practical for Yamaha to admit anything. Judging by the low number of occurences, any admitance on their part would only open flood gates of owners who would then demand repair regardless of their experience with the problem or symptoms. The smart money is to do exactly what they are doing: maintain customer satisfaction by fixing the ones that break and keep your mouth shut about anything else.

Yes, I imagine that by now they know exactly where the flaw or flaws are. I also imagine we will never hear Yamaha admit it. I also imagine we will never hear when the funeral was for the guy that screwed up.

 

[markjenn]

I agree with Scab. If Yamaha ever "admitted" to a problem, the owner community would smell blood in the water and everyone would suddenly have a ticker. I think even today, tickers are vastly over-diagnosed.

An admission by Yamaha would have to have a recall come along with it. They've done the math and simply fixing the few % of bikes with the problem is much more cost-effective. If the incidence rate were to spike up dramatically, they'd probably do the recall.

- Mark

 

[skyway]

Realistically, I don't think it would economically practical for Yamaha to admit anything.  Judging by the low number of occurences, any admitance on their part would only open flood gates of owners who would then demand repair regardless of their experience with the problem or symptoms.  The smart money is to do exactly what they are doing:  maintain customer satisfaction by fixing the ones that break and keep your mouth shut about anything else.Yes, I imagine that by now they know exactly where the flaw or flaws are.  I also imagine we will never hear Yamaha admit it.  I also imagine we will never hear when the funeral was for the guy that screwed up.

Yes I agree it is wishful thinking, but by not addressing thier client base with 'the real facts', speculation and mis-information about this issue has spread like wildfire across many motorcycle forums, which has prevented some from not jumping in on this great bike.

An early on damage control statement to its dealers would have eased the minds of the riding community, and maybe increased sales of the FJR as a result. Even now I still read how some dealers still have no knowledge of the tick. For current owners and potential buyers walking into their local yamaha dealer voicing concern, I just can't see how this helps?

 

[jestal]

From the auto industry side of things Yamaha's reaction to the tick problem is typical of the Japanese auto industry and has been repeated many times with their cars in the past. It is also part of the reason the Japanese car companies have such a sterling reputation for reliability and quality. They never admit anything was wrong and routinely offer "extended warranties" without publicly admitting anything was wrong and they never leave any sort of paper trail...i.e...part number changes, service bulletines, etc....to document that there was a problem. Consumer Reports has fallen for this tactic the worst for they often quote how many "service bulletines" or "recalls" the US companies have for a particular model as if that indicated some level of quality. The Japanese companies just don't issue any bulletines, even though there are problems, so CR never picks up on the problems. Since most of the service bulletines are informational items anyway it is really a sore point with a lot of the US companies over how the foreign companies operate.

Just like today, the parts list for the FJR still shows the exact same parts for the valvetrain but you get different seal part numbers if you take in a ticker and the dealer calls Yamaha. At least they seem to be taking care of their customers on this one.

The tick problem may or may not be overblown. I suspect that more engines would eventually tick if they got enough miles on them. The number of tickers is probably as small as it is due to the fact that not many bikes get run to that mileage level. Yamaha is probably assuming that most will never tick due to whatever varaibles there are that exacerbate the tick in some engines combined with the fact that most will never get many miles piled on them. Even if you were to assume that they would all tick, doing any sort of recall on every engine would create far far more problems than the eventual number of tickers likely to surface (just due to the intrusive nature of any repair) so any sort of recall or wide spread fix is highly unlikely. "Admitting" anything by Yamaha would just create a firestorm of protest so the best thing they can possibly do is to keep quiet, fix the ones that show up and hope the internet doesn't spread the word further than they think it can....LOL.

BTW.....I'm just reporting my observations and what I decided to do on my engine. I take full responsibility for whatever happens...to my engine....NOT YOURS. I was just 10 head bolts away from pulling the head and replacing the exhaust guides anyway so it won't be a big deal if something does happen to mine. I am NOT suggesting that anyone else undertake the same mods or that they will be successful. I may never even know if they worked or not. Even if mine never ticks it won't prove anything unless we made the mods on a lot of engines and none of them ever ticked. Mine might not have ticked anyway for whatever reason. I was just doing the investigation out of curiousity and making what mods that I felt were directionally correct for heading off any sort of lube problems in the exhaust valve guide area on my engine. As long as it was apart I had to do SOMETHING.....LOL.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

markjenn Posted on Mar 20 2006, 01:40 PM<snip>

I think even today, tickers are vastly over-diagnosed.

Do you mean: Yamaha is repairing "tickers" that aren't really tickers -- but, just bikes thought to have a problem? explain, please...
FJRay Posted: Mar 19 2006, 09:50 PM(different, but similar, topic)

IMO the tick thing is way overated. if you have a ticker (mine was one of the real early ones) yamaha will fix it. you will probably find that is a better runing bike than new. mine was. then ride the **** out of it and quit worrying about a tick. **** happens.

Interesting -- there may be (now) a way of knowing if you're going to have a "ticker"! If your bike has "sub-standard" performance -- it may be a ticker-in-the-making? It's been reported that (other) owners felt the bike performed better after getting it from the shop (for ticker fix). It's been said that the performance had deteriorated -- but, maybe? (as FJRay states) the performance wasn't there in the beginning?

IMO, it's hard to believe that a repaired bike will be noticeably better than a new one -- not unless that new one was faulty to begin with?

...just some thoughts for discussion.

BTW, thanks jestal for all your insightful comments.

 

[radman]

A repaired engine (post tick) has had essentially a nice valve job. Any engine will run better than new if, once broken in, it has a valve freshning. This was common practice on our race motors, once everything seated, a quick valve lapping would create perfect chamber sealing and the utmost in power. So I would imagine 2 things happen-one, the engine performance had deteriorated to the point where power was well down, and two, the fresh head brought out the most in the engine as fresh valves always will.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

So, what I hear you saying, Rad, is that we're all riding FJRs with "sub-par" engines anyway and having a "ticker" may well be a good-thing -- in that, we'll have the opportunity to finally get the bike's performance up-to-spec? A silver-lining, so-to-speak?