What happened to Isabella's Engine?

[Redfish Hunter]

On Hwy 28 and the Cherohala I know Dad stays in 4th most of the time. Of course he is following my slow ST-1300... Okay, it is not the Honda's fault I am slow.

I do appreciate hppants taking the time to do this and document it for all of us. I kind of wish I was there to help him. Except that I would not be any help, I would just be in the way.

 

[John d]

My guess is that prolonged periods of engine idling and slow speed running that is common place in parades can be the problem, since the oil pressure would be low at low revs. Once the revs build up, the oil pressure goes higher and does a better job of lubing the big end bearings. Combining that with high ambient temperature wouldn't be good for an engine, especially if the fans aren't working.

 

[Patriot]

Good point, Ross.
Mike - have you noticed the fans kick on at all?

yes, definitely...I always leave it idling at the end of a ride in the driveway, dismount, take jacket and helmet off and stow in garage, then ride it in, park it, and shut down. Fan is comes on in driveway. I also notice it come on sitting at a traffic light and then pulling into a fuel stop. All my engines were hard to start...like took two tries if weather was hot (I've ridden where the road was 107F heat index in July), the engine is hot, and the fan comes on when I hit the starter button. It'll do the ah ah ah. I let off the starter button, wait 5 sec, and try again and it fires right up. If the battery is somehow not fully charged, the clock might reset during the ah ah ah.

I shamefully think part of the problem includes the dinged up fins on the radiator. I had some wiring and relays come loose from under the dash between the forks and bump into the radiator for a period of time. The corners of the radiator fins were beat up. I got a fin fan tool from harbor freight for a home repair plus asked Aaron to check and improve the air flow while he had the bike and the rad was out.

I'll keep a more close eye on this one.

The overheating was on very twisty hwy 28 with average speeds of 35mph. Straights maybe 40 and switchback turns down to 20. When I lazy ride this way, I am way slower than usual.

As an aside, I led a ride Fri at NAFO with 5 others in the group. On the Cherohala, Burnspot following right behind me and running 4th gear. I was tooling along the sweepers in 3rd averaging 5-6k. I recommended he drop a gear and run in sync with me. He said that was much better.

BTW, per "TailoftheDragon.com", the Cherohala and hwy 441 are both open after what I believe were rock slids in the fall/winter.

Being in the deep south...heat is intense especially June-Aug...I have July...

 

[Fred W]

My guess is that prolonged periods of engine idling and slow speed running that is common place in parades can be the problem, since the oil pressure would be low at low revs. Once the revs build up, the oil pressure goes higher and does a better job of lubing the big end bearings. Combining that with high ambient temperature wouldn't be good for an engine, especially if the fans aren't working.

... and in the deep south, no less.

That's a good point made. Our man Patriot puts his engine through that sort of "abuse" on a regular basis, and as part and parcel of being who he is. But there still may have been something about the last engine that wasn't cooling quite right. Maybe the impeller is trashed in the waterpump? Worth a quick look.

 

[Patriot]

My guess is that prolonged periods of engine idling and slow speed running that is common place in parades can be the problem, since the oil pressure would be low at low revs. Once the revs build up, the oil pressure goes higher and does a better job of lubing the big end bearings. Combining that with high ambient temperature wouldn't be good for an engine, especially if the fans aren't working.

... and in the deep south, no less.

That's a good point made. Our man Patriot puts his engine through that sort of "abuse" on a regular basis, and as part and parcel of being who he is. But there still may have been something about the last engine that wasn't cooling quite right. Maybe the impeller is trashed in the waterpump? Worth a quick look.

yes, routinely and including those scorching days, it's common to sit in a parking lot waiting some period of time for the mourners to finally get in their cars, the hearse prepared to depart, and start the escort. I try not to fire up the bike until ready to go, but that judgement is all over the map. Once I crank up, I generally let it run until we go if less than 15 minutes. Then for a mile, we might crawl along at 3-5mph until we get up to speed with everyone together. If I am attending/involved in 8 mission a month, then that's a common situation for me and Isabella.

also, and be reminded of the burnt exhaust valve on that same engine...I remember some questioning whether a crushed header 80% closed would do that...but then that was the cylinder in question.

In addition to above,

 

[RossKean]

My guess is that prolonged periods of engine idling and slow speed running that is common place in parades can be the problem, since the oil pressure would be low at low revs. Once the revs build up, the oil pressure goes higher and does a better job of lubing the big end bearings. Combining that with high ambient temperature wouldn't be good for an engine, especially if the fans aren't working.

... and in the deep south, no less.

That's a good point made. Our man Patriot puts his engine through that sort of "abuse" on a regular basis, and as part and parcel of being who he is. But there still may have been something about the last engine that wasn't cooling quite right. Maybe the impeller is trashed in the waterpump? Worth a quick look.

"New" engine should have a "new" water pump? (I assume) If it was a problem, it shouldn't be now. Still, it would be a good idea for Patriot to keep an eye on engine temps.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Except all the other thoughts don't forget that the two spark plugs looked like brand new..
A very lean mixture can do the spark plugs to looks like this..Also can cause more heat in the cylinder..
In my bike i have never seen over the four bars in the display in any case,even and in the traffic also and in the deep summer the last 9 years..

 

[Fred W]

"New" engine should have a "new" water pump? (I assume) If it was a problem, it shouldn't be now. Still, it would be a good idea for Patriot to keep an eye on engine temps.

Yes, I'm talking about hppants looking at the old impeller.

(that's what this thread is about)

Also, remember that there is no reason not to believe that the old engine had more than one "issue."

 

[RossKean]

"New" engine should have a "new" water pump? (I assume) If it was a problem, it shouldn't be now. Still, it would be a good idea for Patriot to keep an eye on engine temps.

Yes, I'm talking about hppants looking at the old impeller.

(that's what this thread is about)

Also, remember that there is no reason not to believe that the old engine had more than one "issue."

Agree - I was getting getting various threads mixed, but still a good idea for Mike to keep an eye on engine temps to see if the overheat was a function of riding circumstances/style or due to something mechanical. It would be really nice to see if there is a root cause for all of Mike's issues on the old engine. Overheating, burnt valve as well as the death stroke that finished it off. Was the exhaust header issue a factor, water pump, oil circulation????? More data for the knowledge base!

 

[Fred W]

Zackly!

And when you've replaced what amounts to a 3/4ths of the engine it's real easy to get confusicated by what's new and what's old.

 

[Auburn]

Good point, Ross.
Mike - have you noticed the fans kick on at all?

yes, definitely...I always leave it idling at the end of a ride in the driveway, dismount, take jacket and helmet off and stow in garage, then ride it in, park it, and shut down. Fan is comes on in driveway. I also notice it come on sitting at a traffic light and then pulling into a fuel stop. All my engines were hard to start...like took two tries if weather was hot (I've ridden where the road was 107F heat index in July), the engine is hot, and the fan comes on when I hit the starter button. It'll do the ah ah ah. I let off the starter button, wait 5 sec, and try again and it fires right up. If the battery is somehow not fully charged, the clock might reset during the ah ah ah.

I shamefully think part of the problem includes the dinged up fins on the radiator. I had some wiring and relays come loose from under the dash between the forks and bump into the radiator for a period of time. The corners of the radiator fins were beat up. I got a fin fan tool from harbor freight for a home repair plus asked Aaron to check and improve the air flow while he had the bike and the rad was out.

I'll keep a more close eye on this one.

The overheating was on very twisty hwy 28 with average speeds of 35mph. Straights maybe 40 and switchback turns down to 20. When I lazy ride this way, I am way slower than usual.

As an aside, I led a ride Fri at NAFO with 5 others in the group. On the Cherohala, Burnspot following right behind me and running 4th gear. I was tooling along the sweepers in 3rd averaging 5-6k. I recommended he drop a gear and run in sync with me. He said that was much better.

BTW, per "TailoftheDragon.com", the Cherohala and hwy 441 are both open after what I believe were rock slids in the fall/winter.

Being in the deep south...heat is intense especially June-Aug...I have July...

Mike, couple of thoughat that might help your radiator and cooling, is taking the time (it is a PIA) and carefully squirt water through it from the back side to clean out all the bugs and grit that gets trapped between them. Could be a bunch or road grime is clogging the fins and effectively reducing the capacity of the radiator. You will probably have to soak it several times for a while and then blow with comressed air to get it out. A degreaser might help too.

Also, you may want to add some Water Wetter (red line product) to you coolant. It will make the coolant more efficient in the heat transfer and lubricates the water pump.

In race engines, you can't use anit-freeze, so everyone runs water with water-wetter to get efficient cooling. Water wetter is compatible with coolants too..

 

[hppants]

The water pump has been removed. I looked in the hole and spun it by hand just out of curiosity and I saw nothing unusual in there, nor felt anything other than what I would imagine a working water pump feels like with a normal impellor moving against the case. I have the ability to cut it open, but for now, let's keep disassembling the motor and see what we learn. I'll take a closer look at it later.

 

[Patriot]

Good point, Ross.
Mike - have you noticed the fans kick on at all?

yes, definitely...I always leave it idling at the end of a ride in the driveway, dismount, take jacket and helmet off and stow in garage, then ride it in, park it, and shut down. Fan is comes on in driveway. I also notice it come on sitting at a traffic light and then pulling into a fuel stop. All my engines were hard to start...like took two tries if weather was hot (I've ridden where the road was 107F heat index in July), the engine is hot, and the fan comes on when I hit the starter button. It'll do the ah ah ah. I let off the starter button, wait 5 sec, and try again and it fires right up. If the battery is somehow not fully charged, the clock might reset during the ah ah ah.

I shamefully think part of the problem includes the dinged up fins on the radiator. I had some wiring and relays come loose from under the dash between the forks and bump into the radiator for a period of time. The corners of the radiator fins were beat up. I got a fin fan tool from harbor freight for a home repair plus asked Aaron to check and improve the air flow while he had the bike and the rad was out.

I'll keep a more close eye on this one.

The overheating was on very twisty hwy 28 with average speeds of 35mph. Straights maybe 40 and switchback turns down to 20. When I lazy ride this way, I am way slower than usual.

As an aside, I led a ride Fri at NAFO with 5 others in the group. On the Cherohala, Burnspot following right behind me and running 4th gear. I was tooling along the sweepers in 3rd averaging 5-6k. I recommended he drop a gear and run in sync with me. He said that was much better.

BTW, per "TailoftheDragon.com", the Cherohala and hwy 441 are both open after what I believe were rock slids in the fall/winter.

Being in the deep south...heat is intense especially June-Aug...I have July...

Mike, couple of thoughat that might help your radiator and cooling, is taking the time (it is a PIA) and carefully squirt water through it from the back side to clean out all the bugs and grit that gets trapped between them. Could be a bunch or road grime is clogging the fins and effectively reducing the capacity of the radiator. You will probably have to soak it several times for a while and then blow with comressed air to get it out. A degreaser might help too.

Also, you may want to add some Water Wetter (red line product) to you coolant. It will make the coolant more efficient in the heat transfer and lubricates the water pump.

In race engines, you can't use anit-freeze, so everyone runs water with water-wetter to get efficient cooling. Water wetter is compatible with coolants too..

I go by Aaron's judgement...Coolenol coolant...he and his Dad have tested it against Water Wetter and Engine Ice in Goldwings with multiple temp checks on an engine in similar circumstances and found Coolenol superior in it's cooling performance.

And everytime he's had the engine and radiator out, he does a cleaning he routinely does for all bikes he works on.

All bikes in his presence are treated like it was his, or his Dad's, or his sister's bike to make reliable by checking everything he can.

 

[TomInPA]

If it is a spun crank bearing, it all goes back to a lubrication failure. All these other issues may be contributing, but that has to be the bottom line.

 

[wheatonFJR]

If it is a spun crank bearing, it all goes back to a lubrication failure. All these other issues may be contributing, but that has to be the bottom line.

Why?

 

[BackintheSaddle]

"yes, definitely...I always leave it idling at the end of a ride in the driveway, dismount, take jacket and helmet off and stow in garage, then ride it in, park it, and shut down..."

Just curious, side stand or centerstand?

 

[hppants]

Made a little progress last night.

1. Got the rotor bolt out. Put a little heat on it, hit it with my 1/2" drive impact and it came right off. Whomever suggested heat - much thanks. I'll put that tip in my memory for future reference. I need to pick up some grade 8 bolts for my puller, so I'm on my way.

2. Took the water pump apart and I was surprised to see the metal impeller. This thing is made like a cannon - it's no wonder I have never heard of a water pump failure - that baby should last forever. I have no doubt this pump was working - impeller moves very freely, all seals look good, etc. But look closely. There was oil in the water. Since I found the motor outside, I knew that some water got into the oil, but I did not expect to find oil in the water. Perhaps a clue?

3. Also, is this the breather element? While removing it, one of the bolts was badly deformed. Had to drill it out - casualty of battle, I guess...

4. Finally, I cut open the oil filter last night. There was some metal particles in the bottom that did not get there from my cutting the filter.

I'm out of room on my table. Next major step is to bag and tag the parts I've removed before I split open the cases. Slow, but steady she goes.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Great stuff...thanks for posting the photos.

 

[RossKean]

Interesting on the metal bits in the filter. I wonder what the bottom of the oil pan will look like?

 

[Hornet Pilot]

Just out of curiosity you might check if the metal particles in the filter are magnetic (like iron or steel). Bearing material usually isn't magnetic (I think?) and of course the case is aluminum and would'nt be either. Just curious!