What happened to Isabella's Engine?

[maddad]

I would say that the #3 bearing is the very visible damage and the source of the major noise. If it this amount of visible damage to the bearing, than I'm sure it did a lot more wear at other places and the engine I don't think would be worth the investment to get it back in running order. Great for parts however.

 

[Hornet Pilot]

Well it would be very easy to tell by Plastigauge the clearances.

 

[hppants]

I agree that the plastigage will tell us much more and I will try to do that when I get time. However, it will have to wait a bit. I've got family committment tomorrow and the beginning of my work week is 'el swampo. Thankfully, I leave for a bike camping trip to Arkansas on Thursday, though. Hopefully we can get some more answers. Knowing that I will be gone next weekend, I really should give SOQS a little more attention any how.

Regardless, several forum members have already claimed parts and as such, this motor will just have to live vicariously through many of you instead of literally on its own. Thank goodness - I don't think I could get it back together anyway.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

From the pictures that i see,i don't believe that the noise came from this #3 area!But,perhaps the wear is total in all the contact area between the crank and the rod..Something that you can't see with the eye..The only way is the plastigauge to resolve the mystery..If the wear after the measurement with the plastigauge is normal then something other caused the noise and all the troubles..Patriot said that the engine could not works at idle,but from 2000 rpm and up.He said also that the engine lost power,also the two spark plugs looks like brand new like no gas goes on them.This bearing or any other bearing in not good condition can't cause this in the engine at idle..Something other happens here..!

 

[maddad]

As I mentioned earlier, water in the oil is going damage a number of things. Could have also damaged the cam chain. Never had a mistiming on a motorcycle but have seen it on two cars and both exhibited that they could run but depending on how the timing was off, it would run at low and not high RPM or run at higher RPM but not low RPM.

Cam Chain Timing could have only be checked while dismantling it the first time.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

While I have been extremely impressed with the knowledge and information that has been swapped in this thread, I think we are starting to outsmart ourselves.

FIRST thing on my mind is the motor was making LOTS of noise. It was also weak and did not want to run at low RPM. I posted a pic of the cam chain and tensioner in the original thread and all of that was tight. The timing had not jumped. The mechanic was able to feel enough slop in the rod bearing to make a definite diagnosis by putting a metal rod through the spark plug hole! If it had that much slack in the bearing, that is plenty enough to make one heck of a noise. If you guys can look at blurry pics on the internet and determine that was not the cause of the noise, you are waaaay better than me. I point out that hppants has not found anything else loose at all!

If hppants wants to do the Plastigauge test out of the goodness of his heart, great. I simply don't have the nerve to make any requests to a man who has taken on the responsibility and aggravation of disassembling, cataloging, and storing an entire motorcycle engine at his home. Then he has to wrap, box, and ship the pieces all over the country just for the personal satisfaction of helping others.

I followed Patriot several times before the engine failure. He takes off aggressively. Nearly every time he pulled away from a dead stop there was a noticeable puff of what I took to be oil smoke from the exhausts. The new engine does not do this. I had some concerns over fuel injector wear, ignition, etc. but I can say that when the new motor fires off, there is no doubt in my mind that it is in excellent tune.

Once again, I thank hppants for everything he is doing here. Like the rest of you, I am truly enjoying this thread.

 

[wheatonFJR]

hppants has already provided a great service to the forum with this engine teardown besides all the other work helping patriot out. The packaging and shipping of parts out to other folks is WAY over the top. Wadda pain in the ass that will be.

If I get even a hint of someone not being grateful or whining about something regarding parts or screwing hppants out of shipping/handling $$, I will personally take vacation time to ride yer way and talk smack to your face and try in my own sissy way to hurt you.

 

[ericboutin]

Way to go Quincy Pants!! (Did I just age myself?! lol) Outstanding autopsy!! This thread is definitely a keeper!

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Walt... Is that the same part the ST1300 dorks swear eliminates vibes when they "adjust" it??

Hey, I'm right here! I got feelings you know. I am going to have to file a hurt feelings report. And for the record, that does the exact same thing on the ST as it does on the FJR. The dorks you speak of are imagining a happy ending.

BACK on topic: I went back to post #56 and was interested in the amount of water/oil mixture coating the inside of the water pump housing. Is it possible that the oil and water cross contamination could have been through the water pump shaft seal? Since hppants says that the head gasket was fine, how many other options for cross contamination are possible?

I will also apologize if my earlier post sounded mean and grouchy. I did not mean it to be that way, when I re-read it, I did not really like my own choice of words. I am enjoying the speculation and I am in awe of the knowledge that you guys have concerning these engines. Please, keep it up. I am learning and I like it.

 

[wfooshee]

We knew you weren't one of those dorks.

You're a different kind of dork.

Somehow.

 

[PhilJet09]

Walt... Is that the same part the ST1300 dorks swear eliminates vibes when they "adjust" it??

Hey, I'm right here! I got feelings you know. I am going to have to file a hurt feelings report. And for the record, that does the exact same thing on the ST as it does on the FJR. The dorks you speak of are imagining a happy ending.

BACK on topic: I went back to post #56 and was interested in the amount of water/oil mixture coating the inside of the water pump housing. Is it possible that the oil and water cross contamination could have been through the water pump shaft seal? Since hppants says that the head gasket was fine, how many other options for cross contamination are possible?

I will also apologize if my earlier post sounded mean and grouchy. I did not mean it to be that way, when I re-read it, I did not really like my own choice of words. I am enjoying the speculation and I am in awe of the knowledge that you guys have concerning these engines. Please, keep it up. I am learning and I like it.

It's possible, but Patriot would have seen drippings coming from the weep hole in the pump, unless that hole was plugged somehow. For coolant to get into the oil, or oil into the coolant, it would have to get past both the mechanical seal that keeps the coolant on it's side and the oil seal next to the impeller side bearing AND the weep hole would have to be plugged,

 

[Patriot]

That's exactly what was happening for quite awhile. There would be drops of bright green coolant on the plastic fairing right below the water pump after every ride or shutdown. When the coolant level was checked, it was always normal at the overflow resouvoir

 

[hppants]

Hornet, Maddog, and I are kind of fishing in the same hole. I really wanna know what happened. We have to plastigage the bearing surfaces to know more. Besides, i'd like to learn how to do the plasti-gage thing anyway. I don't mind playing around with it and learning more about something. When I've had enough, I'll let ya'll know.

Confirming some of R/H's comments - although I didn't post it, I did verify the timing was correct on the motor before I took the chain off. I used the valve adjustment "how to" thread on the fjr1300 info website. Also, the cam chain was extremely tight - that tensioner was working and there is no way in hell the chain was gonna jump a tooth. After I removed the tensioner and looked at it more closely to figure out how the dog gone thing works (ingenious BTW), I realized that the tensioner still had at least 1/2 of it's travel (adjustment) left.

Also, I have no doubt that coolant (not just rain water) got into the oil. Patriot - did Aaron confirm that at any point in his diagnosis?

Also - as a note for me when I get to the plasti-gage test, could someone please post the torque spec for the connecting rod nuts?

 

[ionbeam]

There is a series of procedures and alignments that go into torquing the big end rod nuts. You really need to look at the FSM for this with all the pictures, arrows and notes. The FSM does tell you how to Plastigauge the rod bearings. If you need help with a manual, PM me and I will get you what you need.

The issue with the CCT is that once the old design CCT plunger gets near 50% extension many have their spring force drop off to near zero when just a little past 50%. When right out of the box the old design CCT starts life with the plunger extended 50%.

The following is excerpted from the FSM, this isn't intended for you to use, just to give you an idea why you need the FSM for the procedure:

7. Install:
• big end bearings
• connecting rod assembly 1
(into the cylinder and onto the crankshaft
pin)
• connecting rod cap
(onto the crankshaft pin)
NOTE: @
• Align the projections on the big end bearings
with the notches in the connecting rods and
connecting rod caps.
• Be sure to reinstall each big end bearing in
its original place.
• While compressing the piston rings with piston
ring compressor 2, install the connecting
rod assembly into the cylinder with the other
hand.

• Make sure the “Y” marks a on the connecting
rods face towards the left side of the
crankshaft.
• Make sure the characters b on both the connecting
rod and connecting rod cap are
aligned.

9. Tighten:
• connecting rod nuts
WARNING
@
• Replace the connecting rod bolts and
nuts with new ones.
• Clean the connecting rod bolts and nuts.
NOTE:
@
The tightening procedure of the connecting rod
nuts is angle controlled, therefore tighten the
nuts using the following procedure.

a. Tighten the connecting rod nuts to the specified
torque.
b. Tighten the connecting rod nuts further to
reach the specified angle 120°.
T R . .
Connecting rod nut
1st
20 Nm (2.0 m · kg, 14 ft · lb)
T R . .
Connecting rod nut
Final
Specified angle 120º

 

[maddad]

Purely for investigational purposes I wanted to confirm that the oil out of that thing was actually oil and water. So....

Took the DRZ out on the trail last evening, after dark, after a rainy day, in Eastern Canada where we still found a little snow in woods.

Had to cross several puddles about 1' deep and some 30' long. Went down in one. Couldn't start, were about 15 kms back in the woods, but the end of the trail was less than a kilometer ahead. So push push push. And then at about 300 meters from the end of the trail. The sick feeling I had was verified. Black River has no bridge.

Could not start the bike. Could not turn back. Not in a place that a trailer or 4x4 could ever get to. No cell coverage. Just two of us, so did not want to separate.

River was flowing fast enough to knock us each off our feet once while testing. A few floating pieces of ice did not add to the warmth. About 30' across and 3' deep.

Tooks the bikes one at a time (KLR650 was heavy) and DRZ400 not so bad. Called the cousin for a rescue. Had to cross that river back and forth 3 times.

Started tearing things down a bit this morning to let it dry out. So I can confirm the emulsion you see in the engine is exactly like what poured out of my engine this morning. Most of mine being just pure water but a little bit of emulsion just from the trailer ride home and the pushing about.

Hoping drying things out will be enough.

 

[hppants]

Ionbeam - thanks for this info. When I get close to the test, I'll PM you.

Maddad - way to "take one for the team"?

In the interest of safety, let's keep our research at home.

 

[yamafitter]

Purely for investigational purposes I wanted to confirm that the oil out of that thing was actually oil and water. So....
Took the DRZ out on the trail last evening, after dark, after a rainy day, in Eastern Canada where we still found a little snow in woods.

Had to cross several puddles about 1' deep and some 30' long. Went down in one...

<snip>

...Hoping drying things out will be enough.

When you water a dirt bike out like this the first thing is to open up the airbox and take the filter out since it will probably be foam & soaked with dirty water. Put the filter aside for a moment. You also will need to check if there is any water in the float bowl if the bike has a carb. Just pull the float bowl drain plug. I will sometimes turn the gas on for a few seconds to flush out any dirt that got in with the water.

Next pull the sparkplug out. On most modern dirt bikes this will probably require pulling the gas tank off. Flip the bike upside down and put the bike in about third gear and spin the rear wheel. This will pump the water out. Sometimes with four strokes the exhaust valves will trap water in the header pipe so sometimes you have to stand the bike upright on its rear wheel to get the water drained out.

Install a new sparkplug and attempt to start the bike with the chock on at first without the air filter. Repeat if necessary. Once the bike starts, wring out the air filter and install.

I've always been able to get a bike going after I have watered out but one of the problems with a four stroke is that water gets trapped in the crankcase. You need to do a couple of oil changes to get all the water out or you risk damage to the bearings.

I sucked in some mud along with some water through the crankcase breather once on the WR450 and that turned into a $1600 engine rebuild when the mud blocked the oil line, collapsed the oil filter and took out the bottom end. Happy not I.

After that I always have my finger over top of the kill switch when crossing water now. If I think I'm going over I try to kill the engine before it sucks water instead of air.

 

[J Paul]

When you plastigage the rod bearing you only need to go to the initial torque which will get the cap seated squarely.Also the bearings and rod must be clean and dry for an accurate reading. Jeff

 

[Afast03nNJ]

Lots of comments about the bearing, which really doesn't seem to look that bad, but no comments or photos of the connecting rod or wrist pin?

 

[Yroundrdn]

Great thread and job on this engine. Just got caught up with both stories last night. Great group here on this board.

The only thing I have to toss in for Patriot is I don't think the idle or slow speed riding will do any damage to your bike, especially newer bikes. We leave our police cars idling all shift. I start my car at 0530 and turn it off around 1815, even in 100 degree temps. Also, when I was on a police bike, we beat them into the ground, idle forever during training, days of slow riding drilles during the academy, parades, slow escorts, and some wild cold starts to over 100 in 6 or 7 seconds. Only the Harley's have issues. With my dirt bikes I had many long slow days at high elevation when kids were little riding in the mountains at 10-15 mph for hours on end. The new tech and engines seem to take much more abuse than we think they can handle. Keep up the great work Patriot, and again, great group of guys here.