What's the OEM spec for replacing cam chain?

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Who said cam chains don't stretch?
have ya ever seen a Feejer cam chain ???
The term "stretch", as it relates to chains, is a misnomer -- the steel doesn't actually stretch (elongate). But refers, instead, to the accumulated wear in all the pivot points: pins, pin holes, rollers, etc. Given that the assembly can be made-up of hundreds of small pieces, the accumulated wear in the joints and moving parts adds-up (over time).

Usually, the preferred way to measure chain wear is a percentage (say, 10% -- decided by the manufacturer) over a specified length. For a chain with 1/2" pitch, 10 pitches would be 5" -- if the chain measured (say, for 10%) 5.5", it would be out-of-spec (just a simple/coarse example).

Another way is to compare with a new chain.

"Stretch" is used to indicate an increasing distance between where the sprocket teeth seat themselves on the chain. The chain itself does not stretch, as RH points out. The pin-to-pin distance never changes. But as the rollers wear, the distance from where the chain sits on the crank sprocket to where it sits on the cam sprocket does actually increase, and that's "stretch." The chain isn't any longer overall, but the space between links is, because the inside surfaces wear down.Chains don't stretch, but we call it that. :p
The pin-to-pin distance increases with a worn chain -- due to increased clearance between all moving parts.

There are no rollers on the FJR's Morse style, HY-VO style, multi-plate link chain.

A worn chain is, physically, longer than the correct/new chain.

Based on the premise that a cam chain doesn't really stretch, it only wears, then a 100K miles cam chain would be the same length as a 0 mile chain.
See above...

... MamaYama recommends camshaft sprockets be replaced as a set with a new chain. Fergit changing the crank sprocket. It's pressed on with about 10 million PSI and if it's bad, you're buyin' a new crank
If the cam-shaft sprockets are bad (worn)? -- all things being equal -- the crankshaft sprocket will be worn, too (maybe more?). The crank sprocket sees twice as much cam chain as the upper sprockets -- cams turn at 1/2 engine speed.

 
Good stuff...so...a new CCT is about $80 plus shipping. I'm not going to pull a perfectly good CCT out of my bike. Some one PM me, get my address, and send me your worn out, useless CCT. I will make a print of it, something that any one who deals with this stuff will understand, and find a supplier or manufacture that will get us a CCT that works like a modern part should.

 
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Good stuff...so...a new CCT is about $80 plus shipping. I'm not going to pull a perfectly good CCT out of my bike. Some one PM me, get my address, and send my your worn out, useless CCT. I will make a print of it, something that any one who deals with this stuff will understand, and find a supplier or manufacture that will get us a CCT that works like a modern part should.
Not to hijack this thread, just need to comment here.
JMcG - $80 is pocket change compared to what Radio Howie et al, that have experienced a rather costly repair. $80 Vs losing a motor is really a no brainer to me. My Gen1 was making quite a bit of noise and IMHO I thought it was CCT. I replaced, BINGO! That was it, I can rest at ease.

As the old oil filter commercial used to say, "You can pay me now, or pay me later". Which is more costly paying now or later? Just sayin'.

 
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Good stuff...so...a new CCT is about $80 plus shipping. I'm not going to pull a perfectly good CCT out of my bike. Some one PM me, get my address, and send my your worn out, useless CCT. I will make a print of it, something that any one who deals with this stuff will understand, and find a supplier or manufacture that will get us a CCT that works like a modern part should.
JMcG - $80 is pocket change compared to what Radio Howie et al, that have experienced a rather costly repair. $80 Vs losing a motor is really a no brainer to me. My Gen1 was making quite a bit of noise and IMHO I thought it was CCT. I replaced, BINGO! That was it, I can rest at ease.
As the old oil filter commercial used to say, "You can pay me now, or pay me later". Which is more costly paying now or later? Just sayin'.
Yea, best replace than leave in such an important part that isn't doing it's job. I was thinking we could do better. Something with a ratchet that doesn't loose it's spring tension and give up the ghost.

 
Yea, best replace than leave in such an important part that isn't doing it's job. I was thinking we could do better. Something with a ratchet that doesn't loose it's spring tension and give up the ghost.
Sorry again, we really should stay on topic of cam chains, but....
I here what you're saying. Someone posted up a manual CCT that was for, IIRC, a R1 or other similar Yama motor. No one knew for sure if:

1) Would it would fit on the FJR.

2) What the proper amount of chain slack/tension should be.

3) Would the manual bolt, etc, hold up and do the job.

A manual CCT could create more problems then solve. Not sayin' that Yammers is the best, just one that "should" do the job and was designed for it, all be it maybe not designed very well.

Cam Chain Post 2 cents.

Now for the original post of Cam Chain replacement, it seems as others have said maybe the sprockets would also be beat. On a chain driven motorcycle, they always recommend you replace the chain and both sprockets at the same time. You can see the wear and waves in the sprocket when they are spent. Go thru them on dirt bikes all the time.

This also stirs up the pot on how often etc as Toe said. Usually these parts should last most of the motors life. I would say it's at the riders discretion and what they feel comfortable with in cost and risk.

 
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"Stretch" is used to indicate an increasing distance between where the sprocket teeth seat themselves on the chain. The chain itself does not stretch, as RH points out. The pin-to-pin distance never changes. But as the rollers wear, the distance from where the chain sits on the crank sprocket to where it sits on the cam sprocket does actually increase, and that's "stretch." The chain isn't any longer overall, but the space between links is, because the inside surfaces wear down.
Chains don't stretch, but we call it that. :p
right, the chain can have the tendacy to ride up on the teeth of the sprockets

and the sprockets experience wear

not a good thing at all with the crank end sprocket...not replaceable unless the crank is replaced

 
Some one PM me, get my address, and send me your worn out, useless CCT. I will make a print of it, something that any one who deals with this stuff will understand, and find a supplier or manufacture that will get us a CCT that works like a modern part should.
Cool! Unfortunately, since mine was covered under YES, the dealer couldn't give me the old one.

Anybody else got one laying around?

 
Couple of points:

Yes, absolutely, given enough time, a cam chain will wear and that wear will be seen as "stretch", which we have already established is not really stretching per se, but an accumulation of wear that results in an elongation of the chain. This elongation is the main reason that a chain driven cam system has an automated tensioner. Otherwise we could just take up the slack in the new chain with a manual tensioner and never look at it again.

There are a multitude of reasons that a cam chain and sprockets wear so much more slowly than a drive chain. Obviously, the cam chain lives an ideal life, immersed in a continual bath of lubricating oil, protected from the elements in the confines of the engine, etc. Another is that the load on the camchain is much smaller, (even in proportion to it's smaller size) only driving the cams. But another important difference is that a drive chain must have slack in it to accommodate the articulation of the rear suspension. This slack allows the chain to climb the teeth of the sprockets under load and results in uneven wear to the sprockets and chain. Because the cam and crank sprockets do not change distance from each other, the camchain can (and should) have no slack. That is the function of the CCT.

The chain will never become shorter, so the chain tensioner only needs to take up additional slack throughout the life of the chain, never give any back (except during a service procedure such as removing the cams). That is the premise behind a ratcheting pawl type of CCT. It takes up any chain slack with a spring loaded plunger (some have the spring assisted with engine oil pressure), and as the plunger extends the ratchet ensures that the plunger won't be inadvertently driven back into the tensioner body allowing the chain to go slack with the catastrophic consequences.

Here's a picture of a CCT from a Kawi ZX-11 with a ratcheting pawl:

zx-11tensioner04ms.jpg


This is a pretty standard way to design a CCT.

The method that Yamaha engineers chose to design the tensioner is completely different. It is a torsionally loaded (twisted) spring that drives the plunger out via a spiral cut groove in tensioner body. There is no anti-reverse feature in the Yamaha tensioner other than having to overcome the bevel of the spiral drive. Apparently, as ionbeam, Howie and now Patriot can testify, this isn't enough to prevent the chain tensioner from retracting and the chain going slack.

Another missing feature of the Yamaha tensioner design is that there is no way to gauge chain wear (stretch). On a ratcheting CCT, the SOP is to remove the end bolt and withdraw the spring before then removing the tensioner body from the engine. The ratchet will remain in position and you can measure how far extended the plunger is, and compare that to a spec. The Yamaha design it is impossible to remove and retain the plunger in it's present extension.

If we knew all of the physical measurements of the Yamaha tensioner and the required plunger range it is entirely possible that there would be a ratcheting tensioner already available from some other bike application that we could transplant into our FJRs.

Otherwise, IMO, a manually adjusted tensioner would be a better long term bet than continuing to use the poor Yamaha design and run the risk of expensive head damage.

The web page that I glommed the picture of the ratcheting cam chain tensioner from has an interesting dialog about CCTs on Kawis. It seems they have had the same kind of complaints historically and the ratcheting CCT in the picture is their fix. ;)

 
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One can make a relative assessment of timing chain condition by removing the pickup rotor cover on the right side of the engine and measuring the horizontal distance between the two chunks of chain as they rise up to the camshafts. Measure as high up as possible to evaluate the extension of the tensioner and its guide -- the pivot pin at the lower end of the guide fixes its position down low. Of course one could also assess how much the lower tip of the guide is gradually moving to the left as the guide pivots clockwise around the pin.

 
The more the cam chain stretches the more the valve timing goes out of spec. Same thing is true with push rod engines with cam chains.

The CCT and the damper, the part the CCT pushes on, has the same part number from '03 to '09 on the FJR.

When someone sends me their used CCT the only thing I will not be able to measure is the distance available from the mounting point to what ever is on the other side of the cavity it is mounted in, limiting the length of the body (in other words when the CCT is installed the distance from the opposite end of the pusher to the wall). If some one can get that size when they have theirs apart that will help the cause.

I know we can do better than the current design. First we need to find out if one from another bike fits without altering it. If not we should be able to find one that can be cut to fit. Maybe turn the shaft down that fits in the mounting hole. Maybe enlarge or slot the mounting bolt holes to match a different bolt pattern. Whatever it takes. I'm sure we can figure something out.

 
Since I am not understanding about 75% of what has been posted I only have one question, if this is not a maintenace issue as in it is not listed in the maintenance to be done area then isn't this a warranty item? Sorry for my ignorance, scab you needn't reply.

 
A manual CCT could create more problems then solve. Not sayin' that Yammers is the best, just one that "should" do the job and was designed for it, all be it maybe not designed very well.
Manual cam-chain tensioners used to be all there was -- and, then, there were many noisey OHC engines (with rattling cam-chains -- they seldom, if ever, got adjusted).

From a manufacturing perspective, Yamaha would want cam-chain adjustment to be automatic (especially, in the 21st century).

Racers like manual cam-chain adjusters -- but they're 'one-with-their-engine' all the time.

Cam Chain Post 2 cents.Now for the original post of Cam Chain replacement, it seems as others have said maybe the sprockets would also be beat. On a chain driven motorcycle, they always recommend you replace the chain and both sprockets at the same time. You can see the wear and waves in the sprocket when they are spent. Go thru them on dirt bikes all the time.
As the chain wears and the pitches elongate -- so, do the pitches (distance berween centers) of the sprockets. If a new (no wear) chain is installed on worn sprockets, the new chain is encouraged (by the out-of-spec. sprockets) to rapidly conform and is soon out-of-spec. (elongated), too.

There have been many cam-drive 'patents' in the history of I.C. engines -- it's probably just too bad that such a problematic design as chain & sprockets has found such popularity in the industry? :(

 
Since I am not understanding about 75% of what has been posted I only have one question, if this is not a maintenace issue as in it is not listed in the maintenance to be done area then isn't this a warranty item? Sorry for my ignorance, scab you needn't reply.
Absolutely. And it has been covered by warranty in every instance I'm aware of. But you'll notice that all three of the engines that have gone out to lunch with bent valves are 2004's. Beyond coverage of even the full YES. My 2005's YES coverage ends next month. I intend on keeping mine for many more years.

 
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"There have been many cam-drive 'patents' in the history of I.C. engines"
Yeah, they're called steel gears. :p
Yeah, gear-driven cams -- what a beautiful design. I want a pre-'v-tec' viffer mainly for that one feature. I've said Honda gives you the rest of the bike for free -- the engine, alone, is worth what they're asking.

Another good design, imo, is the Suzuki SV/TL v-twin -- gear-driven cams from a chain-driven intermediate shaft -- the sprocket sizes for the chain-drive part aren't critical (they're not in the head) and, therefore, can be as large as necessary for reliability.

It's that one aspect of the FJR engine's design that may be a fatal flaw -- the size of the cam-chain sprocket (non-replaceable) on the crankshaft. Way too small for longevity -- not to mention limited sprocket-teeth-to-chain-link meshing (too few teeth engaging too few links). This aspect has been compromised by engine size restrictions. :(

Another very nice design is Kawasaki's W650 tower-shaft/bevel-gear cam-drive... :)

 
https://www.fjriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3701

from S76 post on the "other" forum:

TENSIONER ASSY, CAM

5JW-12210-10-00 (replaces 5JW-12210-01-00)

I put a new tensioner in my bike last winter and got the old part number. I just put a new one in Heidi's bike a month ago and got the new part number. The new part number is recent and the two tensioners are different. The plunger assy on the new one is longer, which keeps more tension on the spring and chain guide.

You really want that new number. I also found out in the process of timing the bike that it is possible for a brand new chain to skip a tooth on the crank, if you attempt to turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank with the tensioner not installed.

__________________

Bob

 
The new part number is recent and the two tensioners are different. The plunger assy on the new one is longer, which keeps more tension on the spring and chain guide.
Hmmm, maybe the good folks from Yamaha quietly created a fix for a faulty situation without making right for all the folks who may get their motors lunched in the near future....

 
The new part number is recent and the two tensioners are different. The plunger assy on the new one is longer, which keeps more tension on the spring and chain guide.
Hmmm, maybe the good folks from Yamaha quietly created a fix for a faulty situation without making right for all the folks who may get their motors lunched in the near future....
I think Toe is onto something. The replacement CCT has a noticeably stronger spring. I would call this replacement a 'design update' to correct potential field failures. They knew it was deficient and took action to correct. Probably not enough evidence from their point of view to warrant a recall.

Does anyone know what model year bike gets the new CCT as original equipment?

 
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