Where is Puppychow?

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That's why it's so good to see Art back around, he can keep an eye on you.
:D Art, keeping an eye on Skooter ==> fox watching the hen-house. :lol:

On a serious note, this has definitely been a very instructive/insightful thread all around. Thanks to all who contributed.

Sam - don't do this shit anymore, please. You're supposed to shoot deer, not assault them with your FJR! :p

 
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Right then, within a very few minutes after we got to the hotel, and while everybody was talking about this and trying to figure out what to do next, we were all informed that Tyler had received a call from you with the basic information of what had happened, including that your friends were there to help you out, so rousting rescue teams was off the table.

Anyway, I'm glad you're reading this, and sorry we weren't the ones to find you. I'll just close with this. At breakfast on Sunday morning, with several of us in riding gear and about 30 FJRs parked outside of the hotel in LaPine, a lady approached us and asked if we knew an FJR rider named Samir. Well yes, why are you asking. It was Nancy Koerner and her husband John, the BMW riders who first found you. They'd been very concerned about you ever since and were very relieved to hear you had been seen at the hospital and released. Nice folks.
Thank for telling your story Sac Mike, I appreciate it. I am not going to get into more clarifications/explanations in public anymore, and it is not needed, since that seems to be devolving the tone of this discussion from healing and learning to being defensive etc. I apologize if I abetted that trend, no need to go in that direction at all.

Also, you are right, Tyler did call me (she found my number from the FJR assistance directory, on which I am listed), pretty good thinking I believe. I remember AJ had called me, but I had forgotten that Tyler had done so also. Sorry Tyler..
ph34r.gif


Would you happen to have any contact information for Nancy and John Koerner? They were the first two to find me, followed by two guys on a Triumph Tiger and a VFR. I have the contact info for the latter two but not John and Nancy. I would like to get in touch and send something their way as a token of thanks.

Once again thank you for doing whatever you guys could do. I do appreciate it! Thank you!

 
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So what I want to know is....... as invaluable as SPOT is, why the freak were they giving out the wrong location?!?! That is EXTREMELY concerning to me. How to you screw up LAT/LONG coordinates?
I'd REALLY like to know what Spot has to say about that. I can only imagine what would happen in the back country.


Here is what I know. The SPOT device lost my satellite lock somewhere south from FR97 on Medicine Lake Rd, that is where my last known location froze. When I activated the SOS signal, it immediately transmitted to SPOT emergency services. That much I know, but it appears that at the time of SOS activation and for 40 minutes afterwards the device was still unable to lock onto satellites to provide a coordinate lock on my SOS location.

So, for the first 40 minutes it was sending SOS pings every 10 minutes but WITHOUT GPS coordinates (I had the device pointing towards the sky and what not - so it wasn't due to that). When it did however have a satellite lock, it did send SOS pings WITH GPS coordinates for the next 40 minutes before it seems I turned off the device because I was being taken to a location I can call in from. I am not entirely sure why SPOT emergency personnel were not able to direct emergency services to my SOS GPS location when they had acquired it, or maybe they were attempting to, but I was already on the move at that time. Plus, I am not entirely sure that SOS ping location with GPS coordinates was accurate. Still a lot of unknowns. Technology is not infallible, but I was still better off with it than without it..

 
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So what I want to know is....... as invaluable as SPOT is, why the freak were they giving out the wrong location?!?! That is EXTREMELY concerning to me. How to you screw up LAT/LONG coordinates?
I'd REALLY like to know what Spot has to say about that. I can only imagine what would happen in the back country.


Here is what I know. The SPOT device lost my satellite lock somewhere south from FR97 on Medicine Lake Rd, that is where my last known location froze. When I activated the SOS signal, it immediately transmitted to SPOT emergency services. That much I know, but it appears that at the time of SOS activation and for 40 minutes afterwards the device was still unable to lock onto satellites to provide a coordinate lock on my SOS location.

So, for the first 40 minutes it was sending SOS pings every 10 minutes but WITHOUT GPS coordinates (I had the device pointing towards the sky and what not - so it wasn't due to that). When it did however have a satellite lock, it did send SOS pings WITH GPS coordinates for the next 40 minutes before it seems I turned off the device because I was being taken to a location I can call in from. I am not entirely sure why SPOT emergency personnel were not able to direct emergency services to my SOS GPS location when they had acquired it, or maybe they were attempting to, but I was already on the move at that time. Plus, I am not entirely sure that SOS ping location with GPS coordinates was accurate. Still a lot of unknowns. Technology is not infallible, but I was still better off with it than without it..
Thanks for the clarification Sam. Any chance you will be able to make it to Gerlachfest so I can buy you the beverage of your choice?

 
Sam, were you in a heavy canopy of trees. I think we SPOT holders have all heard the issues with this scenario.

I use my SPOT a lot on my ocean-going offshore tuna trips and always compare my marks to my 3 redundant GPS Systems I have on the boat. It's always spot on, no pun intended. I have experienced some erroneous posit reports or delays between tracking points as I traverse the more forested regions of the state.

 
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Thanks for everyone working to keep this thread civil. Like Warchild said, a lot can be learned when something like this is reflected on in a spirit of concern and respect.

 
Would you happen to have any contact information for Nancy and John Koerner? They were the first two to find me, followed by two guys on a Triumph Tiger and a VFR. I have the contact info for the latter two but not John and Nancy. I would like to get in touch and send something their way as a token of thanks.
I didn't think to do that, Sam. Awful nice people though. I think their thanks came from hearing you'd made it through all this as well as you did. Anyway, I did buy their breakfast for them. (Well, it was a free breakfast, but I would have.) :rolleyes:

.

 
Sam, were you in a heavy canopy of trees. I think we SPOT holders have all heard the issues with this scenario.

I use my SPOT a lot on my ocean-going offshore tuna trips and always compare my marks to my 3 redundant GPS Systems I have on the boat. It's always spot on, no pun intended. I have experienced some erroneous posit reports or delays between tracking points as I traverse the more forested regions of the state.
I suspect the trees were a big part of this equation. GPS has a difficult time in trees, it can drive you nuts trying to listen to xm radio and the Garmin will lose signal too.

Sam, I believe AJ and I saw your BMW angels and the two back ups on the north end of Harris Spring Rd.

 
So, just a couple of things (or maybe more than a couple):

First: I'm glad that Sam is ok. What was a great riding day turned out to be kind of a cluster **** after some of us realized Sam was missing.

Brian, you have the right guy. It actually took Beemerdons and I 10 minutes to find Sam once the search started. I was surprised that the Spotwalla account didn't show an emergency activation, but was really concerned that the last GPS coordinates given were two hours prior to our search, and out in the middle of nowhere. BUT...I'm getting a little ahead. The group on that day had gotten a little out of control. 13 bikes, with riders of different styles. I'll give a little history from my perspective:

I was having a Hellavua time with my credit card paying for gas. I travel a lot, and have never had an issue, but we stopped in Indian Springs outside of Las Vegas to get gas and the pump at Chevron I was using freaked out and died after putting in 2 gallons of gas. The pump came back on, and I ran my card again. The problem is that Chevron holds $126 dollars every time you run the card, so my bank freaked out and thought someone was trying to load $300 worth of gas in that one stop. Add this to the other two times I had stopped for gas that day also happened to be Chevrons, and Chevron was holding nearly $600 on my card.

That started my cluster ****. Because of the gas card problems, some people grew impatient and decided they were in a hurry, so I had gotten left behind on this trip already. I told them they could go on, and I would catch up, which I did, but it still doesn't make me happy. I ride by myself a lot, so I don't care, but I never leave people behind as it just isn't my style. I learned some things on this trip, and there are some that I won't depend on for a group ride again. My brother and I have this philosophy that, "I'm on fucking vacation. I'll get there when I get there." If you're in that much of a fucking hurry, say so, and leave.

Anyway...The morning we all met in Sacramento, I had to call my bank again and seemed to finally get it all straight. BUT, since I wasn't sure, I pulled out cash and decided I would just pay cash for gas from that point forward. We left as a group, and all stopped for lunch in Quincy. I left lunch before a lot of people because I knew I had some unclustering to do. I needed to fix my headphones, and pay cash for gas. There was a line, and when I went inside, it took forever to get my change. By the time I got back out to my bike, the 5 or 6 bikes at the pumps were done and the last person I saw leaving the lot was Barry.

I knew I could catch up, and figured the group would realize I was gone at the next turn and stop to wait, so I just got my stuff straight. About then, Mike pulled in. He waited for me, and we then took off to catch up. We were hauling ass and I was impressed that Mike was running as fast as he was. We hit the 89/70 intersection and passed it because there were no bikes stopped or in the area. Mike stopped a ways up and said he wasn't sure if we were suppposed to turn. He decided we were on the right track and took off, still in the wrong direction. I figured we should have caught the group by now, so started checking routes on my GPS, only to find that we should have turned at the intersection. By the time I got this unfucked and passed Mike to get him stopped, we were 6 miles past the intersection. We turned around and hammered it.

We followed my GPS route and ended up passing the group while they were stopped at an overlook. I jammed on the brakes and made a judgement error, and Mike and I almost ended up in an ugly wreck. That got my adrenaline going, and although up to that point, I wasn't sure if I should be pissed or not, when I got into the parking lot, I went straight for pissed.

Doug got the brunt of that, and I'm not even sure why. Maybe because he was the only one that really acknowledged that Mike and I had been left...At that point, I was done. I knew how to get where we were going, and I was gonna go by myself at whatever pace I wanted. Tyler calmed me down and brought me to my senses, and Doug almost instantly forgave me for being a dick. I ended up staying with the group, and we decided to change the way the ride was going. Tom became the sweep, and he and Doug had radios. That played out well until our last gas stop.

The decision had already been made that people were going to break off at that stop and go different directions; kind of depending on their skill level, and how bad they just wanted to get to the hotel. However, more impatient bullshit at that stop had the group broken up into groups of people that had no idea where anyone else was going. Two riders decided they didn't want to wait the 5 minutes it would take for their turn, so they left that station and went up the road somewhere...Not to be seen again until Klamath falls. Sam went to look for them, but they were gone. I was paired up with Doug. Mike, Tom, Russ, Sam and those guys knew where they were going, so we all broke off and headed for our roads.

While Doug and I were on this cool little road he took me on, we passed a BMW and a yellow sport bike packed to the hilt. I think that yellow bike may have been the VFR, but not sure. We saw a big muley next to the road, and just kind of took it easy.

We got to Klamath Falls and started hanging out with the group that was there. Then Mike and Russ pulled in. The first thing Russ asked me was if any of us had seen Sam. He told me what got posted earlier about losing Sam in the dirt road, turn around fiasco, and said they searched, but couldn't find him. There was no cell phone service, and they weren't sure about being there in the dark, so they hoped he had decided to take his own route and get to the hotel. He hadn't, so the search was on.

We found Sam's Spotwalla page on the forum, and his cell number. Barry called Sam, but got voicemail. Don and I found that Sam's last position was where he crashed (or close), but since there was no emergency post, we weren't sure why his track had stopped. I knew it was one of three things: Sam turned it off for some reason, the batteries died, or he was in a bad crash and destroyed the unit, stopping the signals. Fearing the worst, we found the Sheriff's Department that area beloned to and started making phone calls.

As soon as I told the dispatcher we were missing a biker, he told me Sam was found, was basically ok, and had hit a deer. I called the hotel where Sam had been taken and got him on the phone. He was actually talking to Tyler who had gotten his number off the FJR assistance list and reached him. Donno why Barry's call went to VM, but with the crappy service in those areas, it wasn't a surprise.

So...Sam was found, and I was again pissed, but the look on Russ's face when we told him Sam had crashed said it all. They didn't mean to leave, him, they just didn't know where to look. FWIW, neither Russ nor I took our riding gear off until we found out Sam was in good hands and being taken care of. We were going to go look for Sam, but that would have taken way longer and been much more dangerous than making the necessary preemptive phone calls. The only reason I mention Russ over Tom or Mike is because Russ was standing in the same room. Tom and Mike may have been doing the same things, I just didn't see it.

So, some things were learned on this trip. This is the first time I have ever been on an FJR trip where the group grew while enroute to the destination. That's a way bigger cluster than leaving on group rides in the morning. As people add themselves to the group, lead and sweep can change, and people lose track of the number of riders. That's what happened in Quincy. Even I didn't know we had grown to 13.

If this ever happens again, I'll be sure to make sure we have a solid bike count, an understanding of the route, and a designated lead and sweep. I'm also getting a SPOT. This will be my last trip without one. I ride by myself way too often to continue without a way to summons help. I should know better, but I have let the cost keep me away from it. Dumb decision, but it is what it is.

I'm glad everyone is ok, and glad we learned lessons without someone losing their life. I think, like me, this was a lot of peoples' first rolling cluster ****, so we didn't think of the things we are forced to think about now. I'm betting that with anyone out of these groups, it won't happen again.

 
Excellent post HotRodZilla. I bet you had to carefully consider exactly what you said and how you said it, my compliments on keeping that one on a positive note. I would be willing to bet that everyone involved in this will forevermore be a wonderful person to ride with after learning this kind of lesson. If there is anything positive that can come from this, it is that we all are able to learn from this situation. Every one of us on this forum has an opportunity to benefit from the lessons here. I know I have spent some time considering my mistakes while riding with others, I have carefully considered making changes to my style.

I also just made a decision to purchase a SPOT. Not for myself just yet but for Dad. He often rides his FJR by himself while I am working. He also spends many days on the water along the Louisiana Gulf Coast running fishing charters. If I could logon during the day and "see" him, it would put me more at ease.

While I am sincerely sorry for Puppychow, I am also sorry for those of you who were searching and worried about him. I can relate to the feeling of helplessness and failure when you feel you are responsible for possibly making a mistake that could end in a worst case scenario. I am sure that every rider involved went through their own personal Hell while waiting for some information. I extend my sympathies and also my heartfelt appreciation to you all for sharing this opportunity for improvement.

 
Point blank - I've never ridden with any other group of peeps that don't subscribe to the 'leave no rider behind' philosophy. I'm not sure why it's so prevalent with this group, or if it's all part of a new way of thinking, but it certainly is different. I can't recall how many threads I've read on this forum about groups being split up only to re-unite later, separately, at the destination. My first Death Valley ride was that way, I got left behind, way behind, with no maps, no clue. I right then and there determined I'd rather be lost than dead and quit chasing the long-gone-race-pack. The only real difference with this ride is that Sam collected a deer, so now all are critiquing the group riding thing.

I think Sam started a 'how to have a good group ride' thread and I'll contribute there when I get home. Based upon this incident, and a horror ride I once was on where a bunch of guys died due to a stupid rider mistake, me thinks I'll just take my chances riding solo or only with peeps I trust and know. So much more to say, will have to wait. Big mile day tomorrow running solo, off to sleep. And yes, I have a crew of 'homies' watching my back via Spot.

 
Pretty interesting how different versions of the same event, all honestly told with the facts as known and remembered, can vary, but by reading through them all and allowing for different perceptions, we get a fairly good picture of the events, as far as I can see.

I think it's kind of interesting that I'd just posted a group riding system that Dave (Orestes) Clarke told me about last month. What Dave called the "Second Man Drop-Off System" got the usual mixture of comments, from "it won't work for us" to "we don't need to follow no stinkin' rules." But it would have made Friday's screw up end a lot better if we'd used it, so I'm giving it another shot.

With a group as loosely organized as us forum riders, it would be impossible to impose it on everybody--after all there's no official authority and no way to move, second, and vote to adopt a standard riding system, but I think it would have addressed every single problem we had in this Grass Valley to Klamath Falls clusterfuck. I hope everyone will just read it and think about it.

 
No access to computer so typing from my phone...short..

I have no idea now who I saw following Tyler back towards 70 junction from 89. I was sure it was AJ and I was pretty sure Sac Mike was the only one left in Quincy when the rest of the group left. I feel terrible that AJ was also at the gas station across the street and I never saw him... :(

I am sorry!!!!

 
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Zilla, nice reflections.

I wasn't on this ride, but damn if I could relate to it. I've had two group rides that resulted in folks getting lost, confused, and worried calls being sent around. Not coincidentally, both of them happened when we were in rural areas (or off-road, in my recent WABDR excursion on the Husky), and in both cases, we were riding with experienced, thoughtful riders.

Point is, this happens to everyone, even the best of us. Walking through this in a thoughtful way, with the goal of informing and learning, is healthy and productive. It teaches everyone else, and it reminds us next time to pay attention, usually about the time when we've gotten comfortable and dropped our guard.

My two cents:

The group on that day had gotten a little out of control. 13 bikes, with riders of different styles.
Agree that the size of this group was the first challenge. The PNW crew learned this lesson a long time ago, and we break into groups of 5 max, grouped by speed. We all know each other's pace pretty well, and if we get a newbie, we deliberately slow it down or have a discussion prior to the ride. More than five, and it just becomes too tough to keep track of everyone or keep a reasonable pace.

If you have hot rodders that like to make time and move fast, either they need to ride in smaller group, or they need to decide to slow down. This has to be done at the start of the ride, not in the middle. Gas stops are a good time to reform new groups. Some of you might think this is too much "structure" and "supervision". If that's you, you need to start riding alone, regroup with those that keep your pace, or relax and slow down.

On my woods ride a couple of months back, after a group of us got separated deep in the forest, we had a pow-wow the moment we rejoined up with the group. Most of us had never ridden with this group, and didn't know their style; only three of the guys had ridden with each other. The leader re-explained the buddy system and simple hand commands, and thereafter, it went down just fine. A day later, when one of the pack had a pretty spectacular get-off in the middle of nowwhere, the buddy system came in handy and we were able to quickly regroup and help the downed rider, with no one getting lost and no confusion. This was super important as we had zero coverage, though several of us had SPOTS. It was totally worth the embarrassment I felt when the group called me on my misunderstanding of the system and some of the commands. I sucked it up, and the rest of the ride was a blast. Afterwards, I felt much closer to this new group and so much more confident should something have gone wrong. (I missed hitting an elk by about 50 feet on that trip, it wasn't my time).

Also, we had prepared beforehand by having everyone in the group provide various contact info (their cell, their emergency contact) and had established a phone tree in case of emergency. This meant having a spouse volunteer to be the "relay", and if an issue came up, she was responsible for keeping everyone informed and being the contact lead.

Two years ago, after that guy went missing for a few weeks and they found him dead in the bushes, having crashed on the road, I bought a SPOT and dedicated it for me and offered it for the PNW Crew's use. I set up profiles for every member, and when they need it, I just activate their profile after I confirm with them about their emergency contacts. Auburn and crew are using it now for their 10 day trip through the West. I pay for coverage, and have everyone bring me back a fresh set of Lithium Ion batteries as a fee for borrowing it. It's piece of mind, and money well spent for our super close, super supportive crew. If you regularly ride as a group, it's a wise investment.

Radios are great, but unreliable. GPS is great, but you need to have studied the route beforehand, and hopefully carried a map. I lost my GPS on a get off during the "woods" ride, and didn't know the route very well, so I was totally dependent on the other riders. And you should communicate with the group where you plan to stop next, just for a check up. That way, no one gets too far ahead and has to make "should I stay or should I go" decisions.

EscapeArtist is one of the best group leads I know, and PanMan and Niehart are probably the best sweeps I know. When I ride with this crew, I know they have my back, I know their pace, and it's too the point where I just don't enjoy riding in larger groups with new people unless we have a pointed ride discussion before we start. Every time I've neglected this, something has gone wrong, people go missing, and the ride just isn't any fun. It's taken us quite a few rides to get to this point, but even now, we always have a pre-ride discussion.

Happy that PuppyChow is able to share his perspectives, and happy that everyone here shared their versions. Always great to learn and rethink my own practices.

 
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No access to computer so typing from my phone...short..

I have no idea now who I saw following Tyler back towards 70 junction from 89. I was sure it was AJ and I was pretty sure Sac Mike was the only one left in Quincy when the rest of the group left. I feel terrible that AJ was also at the gas station across the street and I never saw him... :(

I am sorry!!!!
Haha...Don't stress it. Like me (everyone else) you had no idea how many bikes were supposed to be in the group. Lesson learned for next time. Honestly, if I had known the group had grown to 13, I would have done like you and gotten gas before we ate. Again...Lesson learned.

I don't think it was your responsibility to know I was there. I hadn't been riding with you for 3 days. Except for that period where I got left, I always knew where my group was, regardless of the size of the pack. I mistakenly expected the same.

We just gotta watch out for each other. YOU were the one that got hurt. The only thing hurt on me was my feelings. I knew you could ride, so when it was apparent you were missing I knew it was bad. We just gotta make sure that in the future we are more diligent.

We can't prevent deer strikes, flat tires, mechanical problems, or whatever. BUT we can be sure everyone is accounted for.

 
Hey PuppyChow. I don't think I saw if it was mentioned or not (forgive me if I missed it) but what version of spot were you using? I wonder if that had anything to do with the snafu?

 
WTF? I go away for a while and come back to this!? Sam, Sam, Sam so glad that you are okay!

As for SPOT and Spotwalla, my understanding was always that Spotwalla was more for entertainment and sharing the route with friends/family while the actual SPOT set-up was for emergency use. Perhaps, when we are doing group or semi-group rides, we chould add the contact information of our traveling companions to our emergency contact list in SPOT. This would require more futzing around than many of us would like and, even if we did this, IIRC they might not find out about the SOS until they checked their emails.

Good thread with many things to ponder and act upon but, Sam, please refrain from providing such real life instruction in the future.

 
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Glad you are mostly okay Sam. If you weren't we would be just be feeling sad and saying nice things, but now we have a chance to learn or remind ourselves.

The word clusterfuck was invented just for this type of situation. I can identify with many of the things that have been said on this thread.

Lead and been part of many large group rides in my prior life. The bigger groups are in some ways easier because it has to be organized.

But one like this that started with reasonable size and grows, not so easy to change the loose attitude.

This is for any noobs that may be reading this thread. If you decide to participate in a ride with multiple riders you have joined a group ride.

I know you may not have signed a document but tough shit. You also have two responsibilities. Don't run over those in front of you

and don't lose the guy behind you. I know shit happens and most of the time it happens to some one else but I suspect the good folks

in this clusterfuck didn't expect it would happen to them.

God speed for a complete recovery Sam.

 
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