SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Less than 100. For me, there seems to be a huge difference in comfort between 103 and 97.
Which ADV Tourer? BMW GSA vs Super Tenere?
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Less than 100. For me, there seems to be a huge difference in comfort between 103 and 97.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
A new comparo of big bore ADV bikes out: https://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2018-big-bore-adventure-touring-shootout-part-1-street
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
A decent review I think.
One thing I think about when reading almost every motorcycle comparison is how the scores might change if the same group had to test the same bikes after all of them had some age and mileage on them.
One thing I think about when reading almost every motorcycle comparison is how the scores might change if the same group had to test the same bikes after all of them had some age and mileage on them.
Ill be interested in how they fare in Part 2. Im expecting the Africa Twin and KTM to rise to the top. Maybe the VStrom too if they put decent tires on it. Im thinking my next bike purchase may be either an Africa Twin Adventure or a KTM 1090 Adventure R (not the 1290 in this test). Those seem to hit the sweet spot in the ADV bike range for me.
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bigjohnsd
2021 BMW R1250GSA
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Fred W" data-cid="1404515" data-time="1535888326"><p>
Ill be interested in how they fare in Part 2. Im expecting the Africa Twin and KTM to rise to the top. Maybe the VStrom too if they put decent tires on it. Im thinking my next bike purchase may be either an Africa Twin Adventure or a KTM 1090 Adventure R (not the 1290 in this test). Those seem to hit the sweet spot in the ADV bike range for me.</p></blockquote>
What I can't understand is how a manufacturer can target this market without Cruise Control and/or Tubeless Tires?
Ill be interested in how they fare in Part 2. Im expecting the Africa Twin and KTM to rise to the top. Maybe the VStrom too if they put decent tires on it. Im thinking my next bike purchase may be either an Africa Twin Adventure or a KTM 1090 Adventure R (not the 1290 in this test). Those seem to hit the sweet spot in the ADV bike range for me.</p></blockquote>
What I can't understand is how a manufacturer can target this market without Cruise Control and/or Tubeless Tires?
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
You can read all the reviews you can find, and ask advice from your respected riding friends, but there is no substitute for the way a bike feels when it feels right to you. It sounds like you found the one for you and I hope you enjoy it as much as you enjoy your FJRs. In the next couple of years I half expect to read about the growing number of BMW GSs in your garage.
Cruise control would make sense on the 1200cc plus big ADV bikes, as does having shaft drive. To me, those bikes are big time pavement eaters that can run some manicured gravel when they have to.
The mid-sized ADV tourers like the Africa Twin, KTM 1090, ManStrom, Tiger and BMW 800s I dont think need cruise as much. They all have chain drive and are much lighter, and more dirt worthy than the big boys.
Spoked wheels are de riguerre on the dirtier models. The inherent flex of the spokes in heavy impacts is desirable, versus the cast wheels which are more prone to cracking. Some spoked wheel designs support tubeless tires, others do not without installing some kind of aftermarket spoke head sealant. Having tubes also allows you to run lower tire pressures while off road.
The mid-sized ADV tourers like the Africa Twin, KTM 1090, ManStrom, Tiger and BMW 800s I dont think need cruise as much. They all have chain drive and are much lighter, and more dirt worthy than the big boys.
Spoked wheels are de riguerre on the dirtier models. The inherent flex of the spokes in heavy impacts is desirable, versus the cast wheels which are more prone to cracking. Some spoked wheel designs support tubeless tires, others do not without installing some kind of aftermarket spoke head sealant. Having tubes also allows you to run lower tire pressures while off road.
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Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Well there is Fred talking sense again. I just hate that.
I still would LOVE to see Cruise Control on the Africa Twin and the V-Strom. I recently sat on both of those bikes and that was the one thing that bothered me. Yeah, I am spoiled, yeah I am soft but the CC is almost a necessity for the way I want to use an ADV bike.
I still would LOVE to see Cruise Control on the Africa Twin and the V-Strom. I recently sat on both of those bikes and that was the one thing that bothered me. Yeah, I am spoiled, yeah I am soft but the CC is almost a necessity for the way I want to use an ADV bike.
BigOgre
Well-known member
A timely read for this thread. Some of the comments following it are interesting also.
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/the-bike-no-one-is-asking-for-a-bigger-more-powerful-ktm-1090-adventure-r
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/the-bike-no-one-is-asking-for-a-bigger-more-powerful-ktm-1090-adventure-r
bigjohnsd
2021 BMW R1250GSA
Tiger 800 XC had my attention for a while, spooked tubeless wheels, cruise, all the creature comforts, then I rode it. Way to buzzy for me, 6,000 rpm at 75 mph? Why, my KLR turns less than that, Tiger has torque at low engine speeds. Wanted to like it, wanted to replace the KLR with the Tiger, just can't do it. Liked the rest of the pkg, good ergo's, great fit and finish, 3rd iteration design fixes most known issues.
That surprises me that a triple would be buzzy. I havent ridden one so do not doubt your assessment, just that triples are known to be the smoothest engine configuration short of an Inline 6.
Also, FWIW, when you run a chain and sprockets, changing rpm is only an easy gear change away. My VStrom was geared way too high in stock form. It absolutely loafed in 6th gear even at ticket me highway speeds. And that bike has what was originally designed as the TL1000 sport bike engine, so higher rpm is no problem. I regeared it -1F, +2R and it performs the way it should have out of the box. Honestly, if I had kept the stock gearing I would have ditched that bike a long time ago.
Just reread the comparo article. I cant believe how much they knocked down the KTM for having TKC80 tires on the road, but then they say they are putting the TKC80s on all of the bikes for the Dirt Comparison in part 2. Do you suppose that just maybe they should have put the same 80/20 tires on all the bikes for the street comparison?
Also, FWIW, when you run a chain and sprockets, changing rpm is only an easy gear change away. My VStrom was geared way too high in stock form. It absolutely loafed in 6th gear even at ticket me highway speeds. And that bike has what was originally designed as the TL1000 sport bike engine, so higher rpm is no problem. I regeared it -1F, +2R and it performs the way it should have out of the box. Honestly, if I had kept the stock gearing I would have ditched that bike a long time ago.
Just reread the comparo article. I cant believe how much they knocked down the KTM for having TKC80 tires on the road, but then they say they are putting the TKC80s on all of the bikes for the Dirt Comparison in part 2. Do you suppose that just maybe they should have put the same 80/20 tires on all the bikes for the street comparison?
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hppants
Well-known member
I guess I'm just too old school.
Perhaps "adventure" is in the eye of the beholder, but it's impossible for me to wrap my head around the idea that a motorcycle weighing 500 or more pounds can belong on any pathway dirtier than a dusty highway, regardless of its tire configuration, ergonomics, fancy decals, or anything of the like.
I need to ride one of these piggies and see what I don't know.
Perhaps "adventure" is in the eye of the beholder, but it's impossible for me to wrap my head around the idea that a motorcycle weighing 500 or more pounds can belong on any pathway dirtier than a dusty highway, regardless of its tire configuration, ergonomics, fancy decals, or anything of the like.
I need to ride one of these piggies and see what I don't know.
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gregory
Great things are afoot
RFH,
For the right amount of money, you can have CC on an Africa Twin.
I shall soon find out as it is a looooooong way Alaska from my neck o the woods
For the right amount of money, you can have CC on an Africa Twin.
I shall soon find out as it is a looooooong way Alaska from my neck o the woods
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Its not all that hard to get one of these big guys in and out of places they have no business being in. Honestly, the biggest thing that holds my old VStrom back isnt the weight at all, even though it goes 520 lbs before adding cargo. Its the ground clearance. I have an SW Motech skid plate on it which saves the engine cases, oil filter, oil cooler and exhaust pipe from abuse, but it also hangs down reducing the already limited clearance.
Still, last year a couple of us rode our Stroms around on the logging roads up in northern Maine for a week, and in trying to get over toward Moosehead Lake we got on a connector road called the Shirley Tote road. It was pretty rugged, with a lot of low gear idling while standing on the pegs to weave around the big rock outcropping, etc. I was wondering why it seemed so gnarly when we came to an intersection with a big brown sign board with a map on it. We were in the middle of an ATV trail. As we contemplated our position a local Mainiac came through on his 4WD quad with his main squeeze on the back.
He stopped and looked us over and said, Ive never seen any bikes like that in here before. We decided to press on and the rugged part turned out to be only another few hundred yards and then it turned into some nice smooth two track. If it had been a bike like an Africa Twin or the KTM with 10 inches of suspension and nearly that much ground clearance it would have been no sweat at all.
Taking these bikes places that 95% of the other owners wouldnt dream of going is a big part of the allure.
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Blind Squirrel
Well-known member
Let me express it a different way that may help you get your head wrapped around this bigger bike thing:
So, in my garage I have two bikes that I can take out in the dirt in addition to my FJR of course. One is a 1000cc L Twin that weighs about 520 lbs wet. The other is a fuel injected, electric start, WR450F dirt bike converted (barely) to dual sport duty that weighs a svelte 280 lbs. Big advantage to the WR, right.
Then I plop my 215 lb self on top of each bike and we are talking 735 lbs vs 495. Getting closer to the same power to weight. Then you try to load both bikes with luggage, but the dirt bike has inadequate subframe members to mount anything substantial, so you are stuck wearing a backpack, looping some flabby soft bags over it, hoping they dont get stuck in your spokes, and still having to wear the same pair of skivvies for a week straight. The big bike takes it all in stride with a nice pair of Pelican clones (or bigger) and a Givi trunk. You could live outta those bags for months. And the big bike doesnt even complain about that extra weight cause, well... its a big bike. Whats another 50 or 60 lbs?
Im not the most experienced rider in the world (yet) but I have ridden off-road and on with lots of other people both with more and less capable bikes. Im here to tell ya, its not the bike that makes the difference. It is 100% always about the rider. Learn to ride the bike as well as it can be ridden, then think about bitching about the capability of the bike. This is a universal truth.
So, in my garage I have two bikes that I can take out in the dirt in addition to my FJR of course. One is a 1000cc L Twin that weighs about 520 lbs wet. The other is a fuel injected, electric start, WR450F dirt bike converted (barely) to dual sport duty that weighs a svelte 280 lbs. Big advantage to the WR, right.
Then I plop my 215 lb self on top of each bike and we are talking 735 lbs vs 495. Getting closer to the same power to weight. Then you try to load both bikes with luggage, but the dirt bike has inadequate subframe members to mount anything substantial, so you are stuck wearing a backpack, looping some flabby soft bags over it, hoping they dont get stuck in your spokes, and still having to wear the same pair of skivvies for a week straight. The big bike takes it all in stride with a nice pair of Pelican clones (or bigger) and a Givi trunk. You could live outta those bags for months. And the big bike doesnt even complain about that extra weight cause, well... its a big bike. Whats another 50 or 60 lbs?
Im not the most experienced rider in the world (yet) but I have ridden off-road and on with lots of other people both with more and less capable bikes. Im here to tell ya, its not the bike that makes the difference. It is 100% always about the rider. Learn to ride the bike as well as it can be ridden, then think about bitching about the capability of the bike. This is a universal truth.
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Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Dammit Fred, stop blaming ME for the dismal performance of my motorcycle(s)! You and this Logic/Truth stuff is really starting to wear on my nerves.
I will sort of disagree with you on one point, I would have combined rider skill and tires. While no tire can compensate for a lack of skill, the proper tire can surely have a huge effect on what an ADV/Dual Sport bike is capable of doing.
Back to my earlier desire to read a follow up on what these bikes are like after a year or two. Obviously if one were terribly unreliable that would be something worth knowing but that is not my only thought. I would love to know things about maintaining each bike and actually living with it for a period of time.
I would just bet that on Valve Check day these motojournalists would be fighting for who got the BMW. Anything ridiculous with the oil changes? Fuel pump issues? Yeah, that was aimed at the KTM, sorry.
I will sort of disagree with you on one point, I would have combined rider skill and tires. While no tire can compensate for a lack of skill, the proper tire can surely have a huge effect on what an ADV/Dual Sport bike is capable of doing.
Back to my earlier desire to read a follow up on what these bikes are like after a year or two. Obviously if one were terribly unreliable that would be something worth knowing but that is not my only thought. I would love to know things about maintaining each bike and actually living with it for a period of time.
I would just bet that on Valve Check day these motojournalists would be fighting for who got the BMW. Anything ridiculous with the oil changes? Fuel pump issues? Yeah, that was aimed at the KTM, sorry.
You caught me Redfish. No rider skill can make up for an unreliable bike. When shit breaks, its broke.
And along the same line, consider that my WR450F is/was a race bike. It wants me to change its oil every few hundred miles, (actually based on hours since all it came with was a resetable trip meter) clean and oil the air filter after every ride, etc., etc.
And this shaft drive addicted bunch around here thinks that chain maintenance is excessive.
And along the same line, consider that my WR450F is/was a race bike. It wants me to change its oil every few hundred miles, (actually based on hours since all it came with was a resetable trip meter) clean and oil the air filter after every ride, etc., etc.
And this shaft drive addicted bunch around here thinks that chain maintenance is excessive.
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Pterodactyl
Well-known member
What I took away from this is that it is Freds fault if I cannot handle my GSA in the wild... I suspected as much.
The big Adventure bikes have become popular because they do many things well. You can get on one in Miami, cross the country on interstates, spend a day or four riding twisty roads in the Rockies and cruise thru the Yukon and ride to Tuk. The big adventure bike will do each of these things competently. Much smaller bikes can do this but they will suck at one of these roles. I have a GSA and and FJR. I like my FJR a great deal, but the GSA is more comfortable, handles better and feels more nimble, is much easier to maintain, can carry more and while it is not as quick as the FJR it is torquey and pretty quick. Please do not think I am bashing the FJR. I have one and I still get a thrill when I ride it. And, Fred is right, it is the rider that makes the difference. I went to the tryouts for people wanting to represent the USA in the International GS Challenge to cheer on a friend. My friend was one of three that represented the USA. There were about 60 guys there and they were all very talented, but the top few were gifted beyond my imagination. They were doing things on big bikes that other experienced riders would struggle to do on a 250.
The big Adventure bikes have become popular because they do many things well. You can get on one in Miami, cross the country on interstates, spend a day or four riding twisty roads in the Rockies and cruise thru the Yukon and ride to Tuk. The big adventure bike will do each of these things competently. Much smaller bikes can do this but they will suck at one of these roles. I have a GSA and and FJR. I like my FJR a great deal, but the GSA is more comfortable, handles better and feels more nimble, is much easier to maintain, can carry more and while it is not as quick as the FJR it is torquey and pretty quick. Please do not think I am bashing the FJR. I have one and I still get a thrill when I ride it. And, Fred is right, it is the rider that makes the difference. I went to the tryouts for people wanting to represent the USA in the International GS Challenge to cheer on a friend. My friend was one of three that represented the USA. There were about 60 guys there and they were all very talented, but the top few were gifted beyond my imagination. They were doing things on big bikes that other experienced riders would struggle to do on a 250.
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