Why do you think my FJR's transmission failed?

[wfooshee]

Mine is the one referenced above with the broken shifter. I'd been having the 2nd-gear-skip issue that is fairly common on FJRs, and on many other bikes, too. 4th wasn't jumping or skipping but I did get the occasional false neutral going to 4th from 3rd. When the star cam broke (the weld holding it on the shift drum broke cleanly) I decided to have a look at everything else while in there, and not just replace the shift drum.

My 4th gear dogs showed extreme wear, with beveled edges present on both the dogs and the holes they mate in to. A strong, deliberate shift always worked, but sometimes that lazy kick while you're just zipping along wouldn't quite reach and I'd get a false neutral. Clutch, kick back down, pull again in 3rd, then shift again and it would shift properly.

The beveled edges induced a force pushing the gear towards disengagement, resisted only by the shift fork being in place. That wore the gear wheel and the shift fork enough that critical measurements were not required. Metal was visibly missing on both the fork and the gear. We weren't talking about thousandths, or even hundredths of an inch, it was all in that first decimal place. Well, OK, the gear might have taken two places....

Point is, my 4th gear was well on its way to total uselessness. Had I not been digging about because of the failed weld on the star cam, I would have been digging about within a year because of being unable to reach or use 4th gear.....


As for the question of sitting at the light in first instead of neutral, the gearbox doesn't care. Shifting to first from neutral is no big deal. It's less clunky if you give a rev before grabbing the clutch to kick down, which gets the input shaft spinning, which gets the one side of first gear spinning better for the shift.

The thing you do NOT want to do is stop in 3rd or higher and try to get down to first while stopped. When clutched in any gear and stopped, there is NO MOVEMENT in the transmission. Trying to shift will force a dog into a solid surface rather than empty space at least half the time. That's why the suggestion, if you find yourself there because of a panic stop or something, to shut the engine off and shift gently while rolling the bike back and forth, and leaving the clutch alone. (Good luck with that, AE owners!)

Never sit on a bike in the showroom and work the shifter!!!!!!

 

[mcatrophy]

...while rolling the bike back and forth, and leaving the clutch alone. (Good luck with that, AE owners!)

...

No problem at all. Just rock the bike, keep trying the shifter finger flipper. You won't bend a fork, the actuator doesn't stamp as hard as a person might, and you will move the gear sufficiently to let it engage.

I've done this several times over the years. Usually it's just 2nd to 1st that baulks, just ease the bike forwards (or backwards) a bit, try again, it will go in.

Of course, with a Gen III YCC-S, you have the option of it changing to first as you come to rest

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(Click on image for movie)

 

[Dan23]

I have a hard time believing that shifting a bike down from a higher gear with the engine running will lead to the destruction of a transmission. Obviously, you don't want to do that just by jumping on the shift lever, but letting the clutch out and releasing a bit and -- with some gentleness-- working the shift lever ought not damage either the shift forks or gear dogs. Now I could be wrong, but I'm not yet buying that bit of wisdom.

In any case, about my now defunct FJR, I don't think I got bad service out of it. When I consider the original selling/buying price divided by the years owned and the value at trade in, the price per year was reasonable. I just hope the new one is as good over the long haul.

 

[Fred W]

I think what was being suggested above was that (when shifting the gearbox down with the bike stationary) if the operator stomps the shift lever too hard they can bend the shift fork. Once the fork has bent, shifting can subsequently become "incomplete" during normal operation when the bike is underway. That would be when the damage to the gear dogs could occur, during an incomplete shift under power, due to a previously bent shift fork.

 

[Dan23]

I think what was being suggested above was that (when shifting the gearbox down with the bike stationary) if the operator stomps the shift lever too hard they can bend the shift fork. Once the fork has bent, shifting can subsequently become "incomplete" during normal operation when the bike is underway. That would be when the damage to the gear dogs could occur, during an incomplete shift under power, due to a previously bent shift fork.

I'm good with that. Though I'm thinking you'd have to reef on the shift lever pretty hard to bend a shift fork.

One person I was talking to on my trip after my bike was replaced (a motorcycle mechanic of considerable reknown) told me that a shift that isn't quite completed all the way may slip out of the gear under power and this can cause the fork to be bent. Then it's only a matter of time...

What do the assembled FJR owners think of that theory?

 

[TomInPA]

I don't know about you, but when I screw up and have left the bike in a high gear while stopped, I'm in an unusual hurry to leave due to my aversion to being run over.

At a traffic light, the sudden discovery I'm unable to go on green, results in a semi-panic and slamming the bike into first. Glad the rest of you find time to turn the bike off and leisurely manipulate the gears into first.

 

[Fred W]

I think what was being suggested above was that (when shifting the gearbox down with the bike stationary) if the operator stomps the shift lever too hard they can bend the shift fork. Once the fork has bent, shifting can subsequently become "incomplete" during normal operation when the bike is underway. That would be when the damage to the gear dogs could occur, during an incomplete shift under power, due to a previously bent shift fork.

I'm good with that. Though I'm thinking you'd have to reef on the shift lever pretty hard to bend a shift fork.

One person I was talking to on my trip after my bike was replaced (a motorcycle mechanic of considerable reknown) told me that a shift that isn't quite completed all the way may slip out of the gear under power and this can cause the fork to be bent. Then it's only a matter of time...

What do the assembled FJR owners think of that theory?

I suppose it's a chicken vs egg thing. Why did the shift incompletely engage if the fork wasn't already sloppy?

I don't know about you, but when I screw up and have left the bike in a high gear while stopped, I'm in an unusual hurry to leave due to my aversion to being run over.
At a traffic light, the sudden discovery I'm unable to go on green, results in a semi-panic and slamming the bike into first. Glad the rest of you find time to turn the bike off and leisurely manipulate the gears into first.

I agree with the haste and urgency observation. I have never had to kill the engine to get the bike to shift to the next gear. I have no idea why that suggestion would be useful.

 

[Old Guy]

I don't know about you, but when I screw up and have left the bike in a high gear while stopped, I'm in an unusual hurry to leave due to my aversion to being run over.
At a traffic light, the sudden discovery I'm unable to go on green, results in a semi-panic and slamming the bike into first. Glad the rest of you find time to turn the bike off and leisurely manipulate the gears into first.

In my experience, there is no fast way to get from 5th to 1st at a stop. I would use the engine-running method. While holding the front brake, engine idling, I'd press down and gently release the clutch 'til it slips to 4th. Then to 3rd. Then to 2nd. The FJR will pull away quite nicely in 2nd if you're in traffic and want to get moving more quickly.

It's more likely to happen to me in a panic stop. Oh, I know, you're supposed to downshift while stopping, but I will admit to finding myself still in 5th gear after having to come to a panic stop.

 

[Constant Mesh]

If you come to a stop with the bike in 3rd, 4th, or 5th you've got problems, unless you're parking it.

You're going to be abusing the transmission, forks, etc. getting back to neutral with the engine running.

If at all possible, I believe it's highly desirable to shut off the engine and then get back to neutral or 1st.

 

[wheatonFJR]

If you come to a stop with the bike in 3rd, 4th, or 5th you've got problems, unless you're parking it.
You're going to be abusing the transmission, forks, etc. getting back to neutral with the engine running.

If you do it 5,10 times??? Or 100 times?

I obviously shift down normally, but I've had a panic stop or two in my life...and have not seen or felt any damage during or after any of those few times I've full on panic stopped without downshifting.

 

[Old Guy]

If you come to a stop with the bike in 3rd, 4th, or 5th you've got problems, unless you're parking it.
You're going to be abusing the transmission, forks, etc. getting back to neutral with the engine running.

If you do it 5,10 times??? Or 100 times?

I obviously shift down normally, but I've had a panic stop or two in my life...and have not seen or felt any damage during or after any of those few times I've full on panic stopped without downshifting.

It'd be hard to know without extensive testing, wouldn't it? You'd have to shift while sitting still until something fails. I do know that I've used the method described above in post 27 for going on 5 decades without a transmission failure of any sort. I don't even know when I discovered it; it's like it's just something I've always known. Lots of things are like that for old people

But the bike can be easily shifted while sitting still with the engine running by just releasing the clutch almost to the friction point but before the bike starts moving.

It can also be easily shifted with a dead engine by just moving it back and forth gently. But in response to TomInCA (post 25) I'd prefer to get it rolling ASAP.

 

[rushes]

In my opinion a transmission problem on a modern bike can only be rider error.

Unless a circlip or a bearing fails.

 

[wheatonFJR]

In my opinion a transmission problem on a modern bike can only be rider error.Unless a circlip or a bearing fails.

What kind of error Russ?

What bad things have you done?

 

[rushes]

In my opinion a transmission problem on a modern bike can only be rider error.Unless a circlip or a bearing fails.

What kind of error Russ?

What bad things have you done?

I can't remember ever doing ANY bad things....

edit: seriously, shift forks need help to bend...

 

[Old Guy]

In my opinion a transmission problem on a modern bike can only be rider error.Unless a circlip or a bearing fails.

What kind of error Russ?

What bad things have you done?

I can't remember ever doing ANY bad things....

I have. But I won't be detailing them here .... you know .... statute of limitations?

 

[wfooshee]

If parts aren't spinning, shifting is bad. And NO gears are spinning if the bike is stopped and in gear. The ONLY time anything spins on a stopped bike is when it's in neutral, which is why it's OK to sit in neutral then kick down to first.... parts are spinning and will mate OK.

Shifting while stopped is worse on the forks than it is on the dogs, though. With nothing spinning, there's no rotational impact on the dog engagement, just the resistance against the shift fork if the dogs don't engage. That's where rocking the bike comes in, getting stuff to move. Slipping a little clutch will NOT finish the shift unless the bike moves. Again, movement is the key.

Bent forks that may result from this shifting while stopped will result in premature wear of the dogs, as less surface engages when it's actually shifted, because the bent fork doesn't move the wheel over far enough.

 

[Old Guy]

If parts aren't spinning, shifting is bad. And NO gears are spinning if the bike is stopped and in gear. The ONLY time anything spins on a stopped bike is when it's in neutral, which is why it's OK to sit in neutral then kick down to first.... parts are spinning and will mate OK.
Shifting while stopped is worse on the forks than it is on the dogs, though. With nothing spinning, there's no rotational impact on the dog engagement, just the resistance against the shift fork if the dogs don't engage. That's where rocking the bike comes in, getting stuff to move. Slipping a little clutch will NOT finish the shift unless the bike moves. Again, movement is the key.

Bent forks that may result from this shifting while stopped will result in premature wear of the dogs, as less surface engages when it's actually shifted, because the bent fork doesn't move the wheel over far enough.

I can sit on my bike in my shop with the engine running and not moving and shift up through the gears to 5th and back to 1st with no drama whatsoever. Usually, it slips right in, but if I press and it doesn't go, I can gently release the clutch enough to pull the slack out of the drive train and it'll slip right in -- no drama.

If your bike is sitting in the shop in low gear, how far can you move it back and forth without using the clutch? Probably a couple of inches? Then would it not be reasonable to assume that you could move the gears in the transmission without moving the bike? All it does is take up some slack, sort of like rocking the bike back and forth except you're taking out that slack with the clutch.

All I know is that every single time that I've tried it since I started riding in 1965, the bike has clicked right into gear. It never grinds. It never clunks into gear. It's just a gentle click. It's hard to believe it's hurting anything, especially since .... it never has.

Does this accelerate the wear on anything? Dunno. I can't prove anything one way or the other. I just know I've never had a problem with a transmission despite the abuse I inflicted on them in my younger days.

 

[Denver_FJR]

My old FJR ('06 Gen II with a bit under 80k miles) lost 4th gear while on a trip, so I traded it on the fly for a 2014 ES model and completed my trip.
What made my '06 FJR's transmission fail? Or is the transmission a known weak point of the FJR's design?

Oil changes were at 5k mile intervals using Mobil1 15w50. Symptoms of the failure were that 4th gear was okay until significant throttle was applied, then it slipped while emitting mechanical noise indicating the gear dogs were slipping.

I don't know if I'd call the FJR transmission a weak point but considering how major a component it is, it does seem (to me) there's been a surprising number of failures. Maybe also surprising, I think I can recall quite a few more transmission failures then FJR rear drive failures.

 

[supertankerm60a3]

If you consider the TOTAL number of miles for this entire forum (probably over 50 million, all bikes, all miles) the total number of transmission failures is not that high. The problem is magnified by the nature of this, or any, forum.

 

[Fred W]

My old FJR ('06 Gen II with a bit under 80k miles) lost 4th gear while on a trip, so I traded it on the fly for a 2014 ES model and completed my trip.
What made my '06 FJR's transmission fail? Or is the transmission a known weak point of the FJR's design?

Oil changes were at 5k mile intervals using Mobil1 15w50. Symptoms of the failure were that 4th gear was okay until significant throttle was applied, then it slipped while emitting mechanical noise indicating the gear dogs were slipping.

I don't know if I'd call the FJR transmission a weak point but considering how major a component it is, it does seem (to me) there's been a surprising number of failures. Maybe also surprising, I think I can recall quite a few more transmission failures then FJR rear drive failures.

Not so surprising if you have done any work in Quality Assurance before.

The transmissions that have gone bad have been on A models as far as I can remember. I can't recall any AEs having developed the dreaded 2nd gear skip. The A's have to be shifted by a human. Humans can, and do, make mistakes. A single badly missed shift is all it may take to alter the shifting fork mechanism enough that the transmission eventually distorts itself further under its own significant power.

You do not shift the final drive, so there is less opportunity for a human mistake to cause future problems.