Wicked Webby Air Box Mod Warning

[Karl]

I know. I was patronizing him just for fun. Now I remember why I rarely visit or post on this FJR site. Always too much attitude, puffed up egos, and uber-moderated.

WTF?!?!?!

Skoot, you can do better than that. You still fatigued from the rescue?

Ya, lemme have it. :axesmiley:

 

[Wicked Webby]

HA HA...exactly what I thought when I read that.....
Bottom line, those pleats serve a purpose and a flattened filter isn't filtering adequately.

Actually, the pleats are to increase filter area in a given space. Doubles the available media. For what it's worth, I've used a Uni since first available, my TB throttle plates are spotless. Something isn't right there.

Radman,

I agree with you completely. The purpose of the pleats is not to filter the air better.?.?.? :wacko:

Somethings definitely wrong with how Pickles KnN's metal screens broke apart there...

This WARNING THREAD is like telling people to beware of a certain tire because it picked up a nail.... :dribble:

Nothing wrong with flat air filters, other than needing to be cleaned more often (and cleaned right!). :dribble:

That goes right along with Pickles bike not having any peak Hp improvements to speak of... :blink:

Guess if I was him... I might bad mouth some proven mods too (if my bike ran out like his recently did).

Last time we rolled... How did you think my modded setup worked?

WW

 

[radman]

My GPS clocked 148, and you were walkin away. Of course, I got a half ton of aero ruining crap hung out front, had the Wally map loaded, and a barn door windshield. Still............ I'm sure Wisconsins finest would have conveyed their admiration had things gone another direction :blink:

 

[Wicked Webby]

My GPS clocked 148, and you were walkin away. Of course, I got a half ton of aero ruining crap hung out front, had the Wally map loaded, and a barn door windshield. Still............ I'm sure Wisconsins finest would have conveyed their admiration had things gone another direction :blink:

Hahahahahaha!!

Rads you ain't a kidding... That was too close for sure.

WW

 

[FJRGuy]

...Somethings definitely wrong with how Pickles KnN's metal screens broke apart there...

...

What was wrong was how the filter was modified. (by Pickles own admission!)

...Nothing wrong with flat air filters, other than needing to be cleaned more often (and cleaned right!). :dribble:

...

... when designed and manufactured that way! :dribble:

 

[UselessPickles]

Somethings definitely wrong with how Pickles KnN's metal screens broke apart there... This WARNING THREAD is like telling people to beware of a certain tire because it picked up a nail.... :dribble:

No; this is a warning about how this mod tests the structural integrity of the air filter to/near its limits. There is probably a slight difference in how the two of us flattened our filters. My technique must have weakened the screen too much. If there is anything "wrong" with the original air filter I started with to create my flat filters, it probably wasn't "wrong" enough to be a problem in its intended form. It was probably within manufacturing tolerances and significantly stronger than necessary for its intended usage. This is a warning that variances in manufacturing and/or modification technique and/or over-oiling the filters can lead to the modified filters not being strong enough.

That goes right along with Pickles bike not having any peak Hp improvements to speak of... :blink: Guess if I was him... I might bad mouth some proven mods too (if my bike ran out like his recently did).

I'm not bad-mouthing any mod. I'm reporting my actual experience with it along with my hypotheses on why it happened. You have proven that it gives performance gains. I have proven that it has the potential to not be structurally sound. Everyone can weigh the risks/benefits and decide for themselves whether they want to perform the mod.

Over-oiling the air filters probably contributed to both my air filter failure and my loss of higher-RPM torque. I replaced my air box this weekend and found air filter oil on the bottom of the old air box (ran off of the filters), so I think it's safe to say that I over-oiled them. After installing the new air box with only the slight modifications (cut off the funnel and open up the other side of the air box) and an OEM paper filter, my Motty has been adding fuel in the two RPM areas where I had a loss of torque, and removing some from the mid-range where I had the huge gain (but not as much as it is adding in the low and high RPMs). Only a dyno run will prove it, but this seems to support my theory that the extremely modified air box redistributes torque from below ~3700 RPMs to the mid-range, as well as my theory of my over-oiled air filters causing a loss of higher-RPM torque.

 

[caryt]

Nother reason not to use oiled filters.

 

[Karmak]

An observation-if I have read all the threads going back to WW's beginnings, WW got a good bit of additional increase by opening the airbox radically rather than limiting it to just adding the hole on the right side and de-funneling (which I have at this point)?

I do not see any reason one could not form the necessary shapes without flattening the filter completely, but leaving ridges. I actually did that long ago by fashioning separate filters for the four carbs on my FJ, instead of springing for 4 K&Ns. The FJ still runs strong, no issues.

 

[blueman]

This is a great example not to screw with an already great design. The older I get the more I realize that the engineers that spend millions on Research and Development and real world testing have the right idea. For me to mess around in the garage with a pair of tin snips to modify the air filter and box to MAYBE increase the performance of my bike so small I would never even notice it is fool hardy. And add in the chance of F-ing up my motor in the mean while is something I would not even think of doing. Now if I put helium in my tires it should go faster because it will be lighter, RIGHT!! Thanks for the warning anyway.

 

[Reaper]

OK, so what's the final consensuse here? To get the increase in HP and Torque, we cut up the air box and I think modify a GSXR K & N filter (they are already flat) to fit??

Or, it doesn't work?

 

[Karmak]

This is a great example not to screw with an already great design. The older I get the more I realize that the engineers that spend millions on Research and Development and real world testing have the right idea. For me to mess around in the garage with a pair of tin snips to modify the air filter and box to MAYBE increase the performance of my bike so small I would never even notice it is fool hardy. And add in the chance of F-ing up my motor in the mean while is something I would not even think of doing. Now if I put helium in my tires it should go faster because it will be lighter, RIGHT!! Thanks for the warning anyway.

You must keep in mind that the engineers who spend millions on research and development have to do so within the constraints of emissions controls, etc. The performance of bikes nowadays is limited by concessions made to emissions regulations-which usually result in choked off airboxes, leaning out fuel delivery, etc. It is done in large part for regulatory, rather than performance reasons or reliability issues. Minor alterations such as the above will not result in dire consequences if done with a bit of reasonable knowledge and care. Speaking from the experience of having done a great deal of significant alterations to engines over 40+ years, the minor mods discussed above will not result in catastrophy unless the air/fuel ration is leaned out drastically, or reasonable care is not taken in ensuring adequate filtration is established (which, unfortunately useless pickles had some bad luck with).

I can pretty much guarantee the engineers would not develop engines which are actually as constrained as ours if not mandated. Every engineer I know would be designing systems that maximize air and fuel delivery if he had his druthers, rather than choke it off. The FJR airbox and fuel delivery system is not a "great design," but a design that actually constrains performance. I would concede it is an adequate design given emissions (etc.) constraints.

Additionally, anyone who wonders why anyone would go through all kinds of machinations just to get a horse power or two more just "doesn't get it." No offense, you are just not "one of us."

 

[Karmak]

OK, so what's the final consensuse here? To get the increase in HP and Torque, we cut up the air box and I think modify a GSXR K & N filter (they are already flat) to fit??
Or, it doesn't work?

I'd be willing to bet we can find a K&N filter and manage to get it to fit without flattening it out-and I plan to do exactly that. It may also be possible to fit a small round filter to each intake tube (K&N makes them from less than 1" diameter up). It would take a lot of fiddling in a small space, but I've already manged to fit a rubber block that closes off the intakes from the back of the airbox so when my nitrous enters the airbox it doesn't get up behind the intake tubes (blueman, please do not have a stroke if you read this). I just wonder if the individual filters might result in less volume than WW's method.

 

[Wicked Webby]

Just so you know..

My method was very well proven on the dyno. Gave me around 25,000 trouble free miles (with doing proper air filter cleaning's and re-charging). I do not know how Pickles panels failed like that. I suspect it could have been from over bending the wires on the KnN panels along with over oiling. Because my mod will allow your FJR to breath. My buddy

BigR on his C14 use to joke that my air box howled and would suck my legs together! It did sounded awesome. My Brothers 06 FJR is another example (current FJR's) still running this mod without any problems. If I still had an FJR, I wouldn't hesitate to "chop the box." The ONLY down side to the KnN flat panels (if you don't mess them up) is that you need to clean them say every oil change or so.. They allow a lot of air in and get dirty faster than pleated panels.

The title of this thread should have been, "How not to try and do Wicked Webby's Air Box mod by UselessPickles."

Happy HP hunting fellas. Do not let Pickles blunder scare you away from a proven setup. BTW, the Techlusion/Dobeck

was/is a great tuner. It was proven on the road and the dyno.

WW

 

[Karmak]

The title of this thread should have been, "How not to try and do Wicked Webby's Air Box mod by UselessPickles."
Happy HP hunting fellas. Do not let Pickles blunder scare you away from a proven setup. BTW, the Techlusion/Dobeck

was/is a great tuner. It was proven on the road and the dyno.

WW

:lol:

I agree, I have used the Techclusion on both FJRs and it is simple to adjust and very efficient

 

[blueman]

Not quite sure what you mean having a stroke over what. I am simply saying over the years I have seen to many 12 pack garage mods on motors thinking they know more than the Factory R&D guys. Resulting in little or know performance gain. And even resulting in performance and reliability LOSS. This is clearly an example of that! I would not want to be cruising down the highway thinking at any moment my motor might inhale a piece of metal leaving me on the side of the highway as my motor locks up. GOOD WARNING not to do by the way. Talk is cheap,motors are not. Just because I was seeing if I could squeeze out a fraction of a horse power on a dino from my handy work with a pair of tin snips. As competitive as the motorcycle industry is,if the engineers thought they could increase performance with actual real world results by just opening up the airbox they would. I can remember installing [email protected] on my RD-400 in 1977, 20 motorcycles ago. Did not do anything for performance.

Now I do remember giving some advice to my oldest son recently on modifying his YZ-250. He was trying to make his bike lighter thinking he would be faster racing. He works at one of the local motorcycle shops and is always looking at aftermarket stuff. Thinking that sinking more money into his bike making it lighter he would be faster. I told him all you have to do is put Helium in you tires and you will be much faster than the factory riders. On another note if you really want to watch your ride squeeze out a few more ponies on a dino with real world results with know reliability concerns just put some gas in your refrigerator for a while. Having it in a container of course. Just pouring into the frig it will not work and your frig will be flammable. Chill it real good then poor it in to your tank a rev it to red line on the dino. You will see a performance increase . Racers have done this for years to get the hole shot. Do it some time its fun. The only down side, is all the food in the your frig will have that I just siphoned gas out of my neighbors car with my garden hose taste.

 

[meosborn]

You can never have too much HP. Even if it's only a few, it's worth the effort. Even if it doesn't work out.

WW, I agree that UP should have chosen a different name for this thread but I don't think he was intending to cause a problem. It's always appeared to me that he just wanted to put a bit of caution out there for those that might be inclined to try out your mod.

Nice Victory BTW.

 

[Gramps]

Not quite sure what you mean having a stroke over what. I am simply saying over the years I have seen to many 12 pack garage mods on motors thinking they know more than the Factory R&D guys. Resulting in little or know performance gain. And even resulting in performance and reliability LOSS. This is clearly an example of that! I would not want to be cruising down the highway thinking at any moment my motor might inhale a piece of metal leaving me on the side of the highway as my motor locks up. GOOD WARNING not to do by the way. Talk is cheap,motors are not. Just because I was seeing if I could squeeze out a fraction of a horse power on a dino from my handy work with a pair of tin snips. As competitive as the motorcycle industry is,if the engineers thought they could increase performance with actual real world results by just opening up the airbox they would. I can remember installing [email protected] on my RD-400 in 1977, 20 motorcycles ago. Did not do anything for performance.
Now I do remember giving some advice to my oldest son recently on modifying his YZ-250. He was trying to make his bike lighter thinking he would be faster racing. He works at one of the local motorcycle shops and is always looking at aftermarket stuff. Thinking that sinking more money into his bike making it lighter he would be faster. I told him all you have to do is put Helium in you tires and you will be much faster than the factory riders. On another note if you really want to watch your ride squeeze out a few more ponies on a dino with real world results with know reliability concerns just put some gas in your refrigerator for a while. Having it in a container of course. Just pouring into the frig it will not work and your frig will be flammable. Chill it real good then poor it in to your tank a rev it to red line on the dino. You will see a performance increase . Racers have done this for years to get the hole shot. Do it some time its fun. The only down side, is all the food in the your frig will have that I just siphoned gas out of my neighbors car with my garden hose taste.

Not all performance enhancements result in catastrophes and this mod done right will generate an increase in hp. I opted to do the far less drastic surgery in order to keep the stock style filter (although I upgraded to a K&N). Before & after dyno's gave me a 5hp gain with the stock exhaust system.

Very simple to do, but in the overall performance of the bike, for most, it's probably not a big noticeable change. At least for me, my bike is only as good as my ability to ride it & more power doesn't make me a better rider. But, it is fun to have more of it...power that is.

 

[blueman]

I have a K@N installed on my FJR and most of my vehicles. Like them because I can reuse them. I am still skeptical about any performance gains. It kind of reminds me of oil additive claims.

 

[Karmak]

This weekend I fashioned two new filters from a K&N that retain their original shape (not flattened out). I made frames from flat coil stock (1/2" overlap on both sides of the 3/4" thick K&N) and the whole filter is shaped exactly like the outside dimensions of the airbox. No loose screening, all filter edges inside the frames and siliconed. If anybody is interested I can post pictures.

Blueman-the "stroke" comment is because I mentioned I use NOS. If you worry about messing up the bike by fiddling with a filter, I figured you'd stroke out at the mention of NOS in an FJR!

 

[blueman]

If I inhale the NOS I might get a good laugh. When I was 16 years old I was lucky enough to work on a Racing P-51 Mustang, it got world record in Reno in 1976. The name of the P-51 was Precious Metal.

I was also lucky enough to work with well seasoned Rolls Royce mechanics that were modifying Rolls Royce Merlin engines doubling the horse power to 3200 horse power. I learned more from those guys about building motors than I ever thought I could ever imagine. Watch one of those blow up in the air, which I have, that will give you a stroke. Honest engine performance mods are done by increasing compression, boost, air and fuel intake ect. Cutting a few holes in a air box a still think will not make any real difference in performance. It reminds me of the time that I thought if I flipped the lid of my air cleaner on my 1976 Buick Regal I would shave a second or two off at the drag strip. If it did ever one would be flipping there lids. Hay did I make a PUN.