RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
Like the recalls on three year old models?
New models don't necessarily bring about more recalls than old models. Think "ignition switch".
Yamaha's Woes
- Thread starter SockMonkey
- Start date
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New models don't necessarily bring about more recalls than old models. Think "ignition switch".
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
You're back-asswards here dingleberry. As usual.
Because a new model in the FJR's case DID bring about more recalls. Gen I - ZERO recalls. Gen II- what? 3 recalls? (mpg readout, ECM - altitude issue, and the ig switch)
madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
Er...uhm...Mr. SkooterG, sir........
While not a recall, there were a couple of issues with Gen I bikes........
[SIZE=8pt]For 1, "The Tick" (though it didn't affect all FJRs). [/SIZE]
For another, there was a TPS issue and letters were sent out to all owners (I got a letter for my totalled '04 and for my current '05).
And about a jillion solutions for the radiant heat that some did suffer (I've been lucky?!?!).
I'm just sayin'.....
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Yeah, but they weren't recalls! C'mon Mike, we are specifically discussing the fact that a new/redesigned model is just as likely to have 'issues' as the one it replaces or is supposed to be better than. Or more specifically, would it make financial sense in the current climate for Yamaha to roll out a Gen III FJR with all the possible new design flaws that they would have to fix, rather than just keep the GenII going now that it seems most bugs have been worked through.
This is not another Gen I vs. Gen II tired old thread. However....................
Those items you mention above for Gen I's - none brought consternation to owners like the Altitude Issue and Ignition Switch issue did.
And........I didn't even mention them messing up the throttle response from Gen I to Gen II - you know, the issue that requires the G2 and/or PCIII to remedy? (At least on the 06 and 07s)
Just doing fine and dandy with my 168k Gen I. Not a ticker, and not an oven. Did get the TPS replaced for free around 90k, though.
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madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
With that thought in mind, one should consider the market is much broader than it was when the FJR was first introduced. There were only a few specific designed sport-touring bikes, the C-10 Connie & ST1100 were the main competition (Aprilia Futura and Ducati ST-3/4 were beyond what most average riders would buy).
Today the market includes the ST1300, C-14 Connie, FJR, and the new BMW K1300GT (No more Aprilias and Ducatis). BMW has stated that the touring market is going soft.
With that as a basis, and with the state of the world wide economy, I agree that this is not the climate for any manufacturer to introduce an upgraded version. The current iteration of the FJR will "hold it's own" in the market without any increase in R&D and the advertising/marketing budget for the launch of a "new" version.
My perspective is that any "new" FJR would need a different engine. If for no other reason than to increase the alternator output to a level that would support the electrical gadgetry many riders install on their FJR. I don't know that it would "need" a 1400-1500 cc engine, but the cases would have to be redesigned to change the alternator.
I'm with you, Greg. I will continue to enjoy my Gen I.
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2WheelTiger
Chief Executive Carnivore
There is a chance that tne newest/latest model will have more recalls. It's pretty common to have the engineers go back over a design and eliminate some of the "reliability margin" on parts if the manufacturer can save a dime a unit. Silly stuff like thinner bodywork, less expensive seals, etc etc can show up late in the product's life.
The ignition switch thing is a good example. I have no positive proof, but there's a reasonable chance somebody at Yamaha or their supplier decided to save some coins on a re-order of production inventory. Thus, the new part has a documented failure rate and the old part was reliable.
I've watched it happen time and time again. First quarter product has teething problems. Second quarter product is pretty reliable. Third quarter product gets "upgrades" that turn it into a turd again. Fourth quarter product is OK. I'm talking hardware here, not software.
So there's a chance that a fresh 2010 might get some 'cost saving upgrades' and suffer as a result. Of course, if I could really see into the future, I'd be picking Lotto numbers right now.
The ignition switch thing is a good example. I have no positive proof, but there's a reasonable chance somebody at Yamaha or their supplier decided to save some coins on a re-order of production inventory. Thus, the new part has a documented failure rate and the old part was reliable.
I've watched it happen time and time again. First quarter product has teething problems. Second quarter product is pretty reliable. Third quarter product gets "upgrades" that turn it into a turd again. Fourth quarter product is OK. I'm talking hardware here, not software.
So there's a chance that a fresh 2010 might get some 'cost saving upgrades' and suffer as a result. Of course, if I could really see into the future, I'd be picking Lotto numbers right now.
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madmike2
Shtirrenuppenmeister
Norge...no dealer support and one waits and waits and waits for parts.
Sprint ST..I simply forgot (Honda VFR...ditto)
Varadero is not available in the Southern Canada (the contiguous 48 states of America)
Tiger & V-strom are more adventure-touring-wannabes but certainly can and are used for sport touring. I'd think an FZ-1 with the optional panniers and the new Bandit outfitted as it was at the Toronto motorcycle show would also fit into this category.
I was thinking more along the lines of those bikes "offered" as ready-made factory sport-touring machines. Certainly the Norge and Sprint St would fall under that category.
That only helps strengthen what I was trying to say about the breadth of the current ST marketplace and the risk of introducing a "new and improved" version of any bike.
Crash Cash
Well-known member
So... um, if an FJR-1300 has 145hp, why does this XJR-1300 thing have only 97hp??? Is it not based on the same motor? That's a 30% reduction here! Does taking off all the plastic really remove that much power? ISTR the same thing happened to the R1->FZ1. Is it a static electricity thing? Because I'm just not seeing the upside here...
I'll pass on the lack of oomph. The number you can paint over, but it's expensive to fix "slow".
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
I'm guessing it tops at at 97 ponies since it's air-cooled. More HP = More BTU. Probably turn into a claymore if you bumped it up to Feej-level horsepressure. NOT the same motor...not even close.
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Shadow
Well-known member
In these tough times Yamaha could save millions by dropping out of MotoGP.
Gone are the days that meant sales if you won the GP.
Any why is America still spending billions on space launches and research?
They could be out of debt in a week if NASA was stopped.
Gone are the days that meant sales if you won the GP.
Any why is America still spending billions on space launches and research?
They could be out of debt in a week if NASA was stopped.
WBill
Well-known member
Y'know... all they really have to do is add HID headlights and fly-by-wire throttle. The platform is quite durable. If anything, consumer demand is making it a little bloated. WBill
Fly by wire? :blink: Huh? :blink: Why?
That seems like the last thing I personally would want them to change to. I have owned several cars with fly by wire and I didn't like it. I like the feeling of control in my right hand (or foot). Don't want any computers messing with my throttle inputs.
But I do agree with your overall tenor. The FJR is already a great bike in its present form. Since none of the other guys are likely to do any more updates in this class either, it shouldn't need anything done to it to be at or near the top of its class for many years to come.
One of the great things about the FJR is that it fits neatly between the full on sport class bikes and the full on tourers. So the owner can tweak those few little things and bias it in the direction they want. Either farkle it up for long distance comfort, or tweak it out to maximize the fire breathing engine performance. Loading up the stock FJR with a bunch of touring oriented stuff would cause the bike to lose appeal to the younger guys that want to bring it to the drag strip on weekends. Likewise, making the bike 100 lbs lighter with chain drive would disenfranchise the LD fogies wanting to iron butt the bike.
If the Harley marketing model has shown the world anything it is that the vast majority of motorcycle owners will want to customize their bikes to their own personal tastes. That is a large part of the enjoyment for them. When bikes are just bought, ridden and sold in basically stock form, they begin to become the transportation appliances that cars are. And where is the excitement in that?
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It'll likely get electric throttle control soon. With that system it's easy to implement different throttle sensitivity schemes similar to the new R1. Also with electric throttle it would be very easy to implement cruise control without adding extra hardware except for the pushbuttons.
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
We may still see a 2010 upgrade. I suspect that Yamaha started investing in the engineering right after they finished with the 2006 model.
SockMonkey
Makin' Some Noise
Nope. The XJR1300 possess the latest (and likely last) incarnation of the venerable FJ1100 motor (which was the son of the XS1100 motor). I'm not sure what effect boring and stroking it up to ~1,251cc had on reliability, but you couldn't kill the old 1100 mill if you'd have tried as many on this forum can readily attest.
FJRGuy
FJR Rally Addict! :D
The current economic situation will have had no effect on work that has already been done! (I know, Duh! but it seems this point is lost on some). Even modest changes can take years to implement and it gets to a point where they are "Pot Committed" (to use a poker analogy.) If the retooling is done, we may see a new machine, if not, then probably not. That being said, I don't really see the need for a Gen III anytime soon. Sure there are things I'd like to see done but with the aftermarket farkles that are available, I can fix most of them. And the longer they run Gen II, the cheaper Gen II specific parts, pieces and farkles will be.
Long live the FJR! (or at least mine! :yahoo: )
Long live the FJR! (or at least mine! :yahoo: )
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
Well, in motorcycles, your right wrist input hasn't controlled the throttle at all -- for decades. Since the inception of CV, constant-vacuum (constant-velocity, in the U.S.), carburetors on (many/most, until recently) bikes -- the twistgrip has merely 'ordered-up' throttle opening by moving a butterfly; the actual venturi size increase or decrease was accomplished by vacuum pressure acting on a diaphragm or moveable piston controlling a slide. Previous to CV, riders actually did control the venturi size -- and, often got it wrong by 'ordering-up' excessive throttle openings for the existing speeds (both engine and road).
Although many old-timers decried the loss of control brought about by the advent of CV carbs, they soon adjusted and began to appreciate their benefits.
For many, the excitement is in the riding -- and a 'standard' motorcycle can supply plenty of that (especially if it's a good one...).
For some, the excitement is in the farkleing.... :blink:
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Rolavine
Well-known member
I keep reaching for that missing 6th gear because the bike could pull it no sweat.
The downside would be the lack of speed indication, with a 6th it would be very easy hit the ton without due consideration of the potential consequences.
At least with the 5 speed that bit of vibe just over 80 runs up my backbone and sometimes says 'woe*!'.
*Should be whoa but I just can't help it, honest.
The downside would be the lack of speed indication, with a 6th it would be very easy hit the ton without due consideration of the potential consequences.
At least with the 5 speed that bit of vibe just over 80 runs up my backbone and sometimes says 'woe*!'.
*Should be whoa but I just can't help it, honest.
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charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
True -- the old XS1100 was tough (if rudimentary...).
But, when progressing down the performance road, the limits begin to show up.
The FJ11/12 had 4-valve heads (v/s XS11's 2-valve) and could, at times, have problems with shedding the heat of combustion (under certain extreme conditions), resulting in warped valve faces. It's an often repeated problem with air-cooled 4-valve engines -- just not enough material/mass to rid the head of high combustion temps. Suzuki, in their air/oil cooled GSXR series engines, added another oil pump to supply copious amounts of cooling oil to the head to carry away the heat (and a large oil radiator/cooler).
Enter XJR1300: One way to ensure air-cooled engine top-end reliability is to limit the (specific) power output -- a big engine with modest power. Thereby ensuring that high load/high cylinder head temps don't happen very often.
A recipe that can be quite satisfying for some....
