Split: Ride Leader Responsibility (was: She Likes It)

Taking this conversation to a new thread. Will ask admins to move the other posts from the old thread (or delete them)

edit - the quotes below were originally made in the thread titled "She Likes It" but we were drifting on a tangent off the main topic of that original thread.

glory racing said:

Fred W said:

glory racing said:

Fred W said:

I do not want to be "that guy" that makes one of his friends "go too far". I think that must be more devastating than biffing on your own.

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Don't want to hijack the thread but I do not understand your comments. Can you briefly expand? Maybe a need for a new thread???

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When I am leading someone else, or especially a group, in a ride, I always ride more conservatively. Always.

When I am leading someone else, I feel responsible for their ride pace.

I do not want to be the guy that entices someone, anyone else, to ride beyond their capability. To me, that is irresponsible.

Yes, I realize that we always chant: ride your own ride, etc. But I also realize that this is just a load of horse poop, and that when someone ahead of you is riding fast(er) you will want to chase. If you think that doesn't happen, or you somehow think that you aren't responsible for them, then you are just being naive or delusional.

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So I am responsible for everyone that rides behind me? If someone behind me piloting their own machine wrecks it is my fault and I am responsible. I am guessing you are an ambulance chaser lawyer. Again, don't want to hijack as this is a good thread.

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Not sure where you got the idea I am a lawyer, never mind one that chases ambulances, or how that has anything whatsoever to do with this discussion. Why is it important to characterize me or cast ad hominem aspersions? Do you think that strengthens your argument? For the record, I'm an electronic engineer by trade, and I am a libertarian at heart and believe strongly in personal responsibility. I also take my own personal responsibilities seriously.

My feeling is that, when you agree to lead a group of riders, you implicitly are (at least partly) responsible for that group's well being. I do not mean that in a legal or financial sense, I mean in it in an internal, personal obligation (to myself) to not put other riders into an overtly dangerous position.

I do not like riding in groups where (knowingly or not) some of the riders goad others beyond their capabilities. And I certainly don't want to feel that I have done that to anyone. You (or anyone else) can do whatever your conscience allows you to. I'm just saying how I feel about it.

I've had that same quandary hosting Rambles and Hootervilles.

Invariably, I will have never ridden with some of the riders that come to the ride. I have found some to be so slow that there is no way I could have led their ride safely and still have other riders behind me. Then there are others, that no matter what pace I would have ridden, could I have kept up with them.

I have always emphasized personal responsibility and to never let others affect the pace that you ride. I have tried finding out personal preferences for pace and put like minded riders in the same groups.

Nothing is ever perfect, but I tried. This rider safety is the main burden I felt when organizing a larger ride, and after awhile one of the reasons I stepped away.

However much burden I felt though, I never felt that there was anything other than that it was the personal responsibility if the rider for their own safety...much as I tried to minimize group think in the organizing.

Mark

This rider safety is the main burden I felt when organizing a larger ride, and after awhile one of the reasons I stepped away.

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Your own actions make my point entirely. We can try and rationalize it any way we want, but if you feel a sense of responsibility for those others you will alter your own behavior one way or another.

It is the responsibility of every rider to ride their own ride. I, almost always, lead and have been known to set a brisk pace even 2-up. I will always tell those that ride with me to ride their own ride and that, if necessary, will wait at the turns. I also try to review the route with everyone, so they know where we will be heading should they get separated. If, however, a group tends to be mostly slower I will slow my pace. Generally this is not a problem if you keep your group size small. IMO that is one of the most important safety factors. Groups tend to get large, because there aren't enough people that are willing to lead.

Mark - The first Ramble I went to you had a great discussion with all the riders in the morning about how riders should choose the group they ride with by generally characterizing the speed and tendencies of each group. I thought that was excellent as it forced people to, at least briefly, think about it.

Thinking that you can ride with a group and not affect their risk profile in some way is naive. One of the reasons I rarely ride with groups of any kind is that there is always an effect on safety. Some manage it well, others, not so well. It is the responsibility of each rider to ride their own ride. But they are rarely able to truly do so when riding in a group. A little rubs off, through the group effect on speed, through target fixation, or otherwise.

Fred W said:

Taking this conversation to a new thread. Will ask admins to move the other posts from the old one

glory racing said:

Fred W said:

glory racing said:

Fred W said:

I do not want to be "that guy" that makes one of his friends "go too far". I think that must be more devastating than biffing on your own.

Click to expand...

Don't want to hijack the thread but I do not understand your comments. Can you briefly expand? Maybe a need for a new thread???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

When I am leading someone else, or especially a group, in a ride, I always ride more conservatively. Always.

When I am leading someone else, I feel responsible for their ride pace.

I do not want to be the guy that entices someone, anyone else, to ride beyond their capability. To me, that is irresponsible.

Yes, I realize that we always chant: ride your own ride, etc. But I also realize that this is just a load of horse poop, and that when someone ahead of you is riding fast(er) you will want to chase. If you think that doesn't happen, or you somehow think that you aren't responsible for them, then you are just being naive or delusional.

Click to expand...

So I am responsible for everyone that rides behind me? If someone behind me piloting their own machine wrecks it is my fault and I am responsible. I am guessing you are an ambulance chaser lawyer. Again, don't want to hijack as this is a good thread.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you got the idea I am a lawyer, never mind one that chases ambulances, or how that has anything whatsoever to do with this discussion. Why is it important to characterize me or cast ad hominem aspersions? Do you think that strengthens your argument? For the record, I'm an electronic engineer by trade, and I am a libertarian at heart and believe strongly in personal responsibility. I also take my own personal responsibilities seriously.

My feeling is that, when you agree to lead a group of riders, you implicitly are (at least partly) responsible for that group's well being. I do not mean that in a legal or financial sense, I mean in it in an internal, personal obligation (to myself) to not put other riders into an overtly dangerous position.

I do not like riding in groups where (knowingly or not) some of the riders goad others beyond their capabilities. And I certainly don't want to feel that I have done that to anyone. You (or anyone else) can do whatever your conscience allows you to. I'm just saying how I feel about it.

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Wow, that kind of came out of left field. Not sure what prompted that response. Anyway, yes I would feel somewhat responsible if leading a group of riders myself. I agree with Wheaton you can get all kinds of riders. Slow pokes and speed demons. I have experienced both. I did a trip down to Virginia several years ago with a freind on a Honda event. He was smart enough to not ride my pace through the twisties. It is best to ride with folks you have ridden with before and have the same expectations. All newbies should be forwarned and given advise on what to expect and what should be done if not able to keep the pace. At least I would hope the leader would mention it.

Just my thoughts,

Dave

I've ridden with some local groups that actually have the riders sign a release of responsibility form before you can ride with them. (So, they are admitting that it's dangerous...). I doubt that there is much legal weight to the release of responsibility sheet, but the ride leaders seems to feel better about having the document.

Riding with a group of unfamiliar people is always a risk, you never know what you will get in the mix. For the most part, the FJR groups I have ridden with across the country have all been pretty consistent in riding style and behaviour. There is the fast group which tends to filter to the front and then everyone else. While there has been the occasional OOPS in the groups, the FJR group rides have been pretty well managed everywhere. Group pat on the back. One thing I have seen on long rides is riders seem to fatigue during the day, then blinkers are left on more often, they start to take poor lines in corners, explore the yellow line and road edge more and start crowding other riders when braking. I prefer to be either in the front or the back of the line of riders to keep some distance from any trouble that may occur. After assessing the group that is riding together I sometimes opt out of the group and run the same route only I do it as a single bike. There have only been a limited number of riders that set a group pace that most others shouldn't follow, regardless of their experience.

New England is pretty small so we tend to have a local group of 20-24 riders from several states, of which a varying mix of 10-14 will typically show up for various rides. We have all been riding together for so long that we have really good group discipline and move in synch (think fish school ). People that ride with us for the first time often comment that we run a great group ride and we seem to be choreographed.

Fred W leads good rides and manages a pace very well for the various situations. We have always ended the ride with everyone that we started with (unless someone intentionally peels off) and we have never placed anyone in a dangerous situation. It seems that the most dangerous situation for our group is at a dead stop where people sometimes have 0 mph tip-overs for various reasons

Yup, what Mr.'beam says. Always a good time riding with this NE FJR pack. A very responsible, experienced group of (mostly) smart riders. Makes group riding a lot more fun (and safe).

I agree with everything stated above, especially that Fred is not an ambulance chaser(!). I prefer not to ride in groups, but one, two or even three other experienced and sensible riding companions is fun. Biggest group I've ever ridden with/led? Seven bikes. It was not fun. That's because, as others have stated, there is a certain feeling of responsibility for the well being of others in the group. So I slow down, and become very methodical...for the perceived benefit of the rest of the riders. However, if/when I've had enough of this, at a break I will counsel, "I am going to step up my personal pace. Only if you are comfortable with a faster pace, you are welcome to tail along. Please, everyone ride your own ride! Do not try to keep up if you are uncomfortable. If you scare yourself, you are riding too fast; slow down! This is not a competition. There will be no shame or embarrassment associated with any pace you choose to ride; only an admiration for your good sense and maturity."

So we all seem to agree.

(1) Ride your own ride, except if you're leading -- then you should ride something closer to the average (median?) ability of the group.
(2) Smaller groups are better, and riders can self-assign to the group that best fits their skill level and desired speed.
(3) Everybody waits for the group to re-form at locations where we turn.

With wider dissemination of GPS and helmet comms, the group leader role becomes more like the source of information: here's the GPS route, here's our expected schedule, here's the roadway characteristics, we're riding no faster than XX mph, and is everybody synched into the group intercom?

I have 25 years of experience leading backpacking groups through the southern Appalachians, and those three criteria above were the same we used on the trail. We also placed great emphasis on who was sweeping -- which has not yet been mentioned.

It makes a lot of sense to ensure the leader and the sweep are skilled riders and familiar with the route. The leader passes on-road info to the group (formerly relayed by MSF hand signals: single/dual column, debris, bathroom break) and the sweep passes information to the group about how well they are maintaining formation.

It quickly becomes obvious who is good at group riding: they listen to the leader's pre-ride spiel, pick the left or right half of the lane depending on their position in the column, and they maintain that position.

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PS: Never met you, FredW, but assume you're one of those guys who just naturally accepts responsibility for everything and everybody. Good people to have around.

I read these threads, here and elsewhere, and can't help but conclude that large group rides do little other than increase the dangers in what is already a pastime that has some inherent risk attached. Mostly, as riders, we seek to manage and minimize the risk ... then some go out and ride in groups!

It's fun to ride with friends, but once that exceeds three or four at a time, it becomes something else.

I maybe get a bit of a jaundiced view from regularly encountering large groups of Harley riders. These guys are nuts, quite frankly. They have someone up front which is fair enough, but they also have people at the back of the pack doing the craziest **** I have ever seen on the roads. They will even try to prevent others from passing! Who the hell died and made them traffic cops? The drift along, inches apart, at 5 or 10 mph below the posted limit, and think that attempting to stop other road users from overtaking is some kind of divine right.

Ride with your friends by all means, but you do have to ride your motorcycle responsibly and well within your own limits. All the time remembering that you are just a motorist, like all the others. You have no more rights than the guy hauling the RV, or riding the bicycle. If your group goes too quickly, fall behind ... it is okay

from FredW:

When I am leading someone else, or especially a group, in a ride, I always ride more conservatively. Always.

When I am leading someone else, I feel responsible for their ride pace.

I do not want to be the guy that entices someone, anyone else, to ride beyond their capability. To me, that is irresponsible.

Yes, I realize that we always chant: ride your own ride, etc. But I also realize that this is just a load of horse poop, and that when someone ahead of you is riding fast(er) you will want to chase. If you think that doesn't happen, or you somehow think that you aren't responsible for them, then you are just being naive or delusional.

from Glory Racing

So I am responsible for everyone that rides behind me? If someone behind me piloting their own machine wrecks it is my fault and I am responsible. I am guessing you are an ambulance chaser lawyer. Again, don't want to hijack as this is a good thread.

from Big Sky

Uh-oh...

Good discussion. I've been leading my group rides for about 15 years. There is a group gathering before we leave discussing the overall route, riding your own ride, and that we will wait at turns so no one gets left behind. If I have a new rider join us, I spend a little time getting to know them and letting them know about our group ride dynamics. I also tend to break up the ride into smaller groups if there are a lot of participants as there's no way you're going to have everyone riding the same pace. And some of my events are more destination rides... I tell everyone where I'm starting, what my route is, and where we're staying at the end of the day. Some folks do their own thing, some come along with me and everyone ends up together at the end of the day.

I do understand what Fred is saying about personal responsibility... I'm frequently checking my mirrors to make sure all the ducklings are okay and that I end the ride with the same number of riders that I started out with. B)

I guess I've been doing it wrong. I thought it was like Moto GP, fastest bike at the front, slowest at the back, and the purpose of the front rider was to be the lighting rod for law enforcement, sacrificing his license for the sake of the group.

(PS, I'm only sort of kidding, "sarcasm altert")

Tyler said:

...I do understand what Fred is saying about personal responsibility... I'm frequently checking my mirrors to make sure all the ducklings are okay and that I end the ride with the same number of riders that I started out with.

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On rides with more than our friends I usually ride sweep to ensure that there are no lost lambs and to observe for shenanigans or any difficulties that a rider may be experiencing. I would also like to have a dollar for every time I see turn signals left on and would disagree with anyone that thinks self canceling turn signals are unnecessary Plus, it makes it easier for my pillion to shoot 3.78e12 pictures along the way

Spud said:

...fastest bike at the front, slowest at the back, and the purpose of the front rider was to be the lighting rod for law enforcement, sacrificing his license for the sake of the group...

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Sometimes the first bike just pisses off the patrol officer (diplomatic politeness) and then with attitude the rest get hammered along with him/her. (Skip (Nice Rumble) in Walpole... where the cop pulled completely across the road in his SUV and stopped the whole group.)

Sounds like a lot of stress which is exactly what I'm trying to dissipate when I ride.

I really like riding by myself...

As going for a "ride" has always been sorta a personal experience to me....my time of peace and reflection....(a zen like or even religious type of thing)...So, I find the term "Group Ride" to kinda be an oxymoron.

I've been on a few group rides (more than three bikes) and really didn't like it. Riding in a pack seems much more nerve racking....the opposite of why I like to ride.

Only time it was OK was doing a poker run, where everyone is given a map with checkpoints to stop at so you can set your own pace and route....with the final destination is your choice as to when you get there.

The "fun" of the group ride appears to me only to start when everyone has stopped, gotten off their bike and socialize over the days ride. In this sence it makes the destination more important than the journey...again the opposite of how it should be.

You are never alone on an LD Rally

You ride your own ride. You go to the places you have planned. Rarely do you ride along with others .... Yet their is a strange "companionship". A feeling that while the others are out there, also riding their own rides and maybe several states away, they too are part of your ride.

You are never alone ... it's a great comfort at times, and a Group Ride I can heartily endorse

rushes said:

Sounds like a lot of stress which is exactly what I'm trying to dissipate when I ride.
I really like riding by myself...

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If you want to show your friends a special ride or destination of distinction then it's not work.

If you are in a different area of the country and someone offers to take on the navigation and logistics like fuel stops and food so you can cruise along and just take in the sights, it's not work.

If the only way you can ride is to get in a large group or lead a large group then you are doing something wrong. Not every ride needs a group to be enjoyable. And, sometimes there are other people that are just as glad to see you go off alone and not be with them