rushes
Well-known member
That's me.And, sometimes there are other people that are just as glad to see you go off alone and not be with them
I'm an *******....
Split: Ride Leader Responsibility (was: She Likes It)
- Thread starter Fred W
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
I'm an *******....
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
I always end up leading rides, and I don't even know how that happens. I don't really mind, but I like riding fast, and always stress that I'm pushing too hard. I also stress about where the back of the group is and who can or cannot make a pass so we can stay together.
When I end up following, I like that way more. I just go behind whoever is in front of me and have fun. I try to stay within sight so they don't have to stress about where I am.
During this last SW-FOG, C and I missed the leave time for the group ride to the Grand Canyon North Rim. We slept in, got up when we wanted, ate a leisurely breakfast and then jumped on the bike. We had a BLAST! WE rode as fast or slow as we wanted. We stopped when we wanted, we took off when we wanted, and we were never rushed or irritated while waiting for someone. The best part was never having to look for another bike in my mirror and making any pass I wanted without worrying how it affected the group.
That was a super good day!!
When I end up following, I like that way more. I just go behind whoever is in front of me and have fun. I try to stay within sight so they don't have to stress about where I am.
During this last SW-FOG, C and I missed the leave time for the group ride to the Grand Canyon North Rim. We slept in, got up when we wanted, ate a leisurely breakfast and then jumped on the bike. We had a BLAST! WE rode as fast or slow as we wanted. We stopped when we wanted, we took off when we wanted, and we were never rushed or irritated while waiting for someone. The best part was never having to look for another bike in my mirror and making any pass I wanted without worrying how it affected the group.
That was a super good day!!
08FJR4ME
-WYNPRO-
I like them both,
The group comradery is fun. Then sometimes I just want to take in the scenery and not slow others down. Stop when I want and go where no one has gone before.
Live long and prosper,
Dave
The group comradery is fun. Then sometimes I just want to take in the scenery and not slow others down. Stop when I want and go where no one has gone before.
Live long and prosper,
Dave
Last edited by a moderator:
ionbeam
2 FUN
NEVER FORGET, NEVER FORGIVE! :lol: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/***.gif
0Face
Well-known member
Blah, Blah, Blah... Wheaton is an *******.... Blah, blah, blah... Ride your own ride for ***** sake. .
El Toro Joe
FYYFF
rushes
Well-known member
glory racing
Well-known member
First off...Thank you for creating this thread. The initial thread is a good one so I didn't want it to get interrupted. But this subject certainly needs to be addressed before our sport dwindles even more.
For those that may not know...I live in the heart of the AR twisties and have ridden these roads for many years. By request I lead visiting groups of riders every weekend in the Spring and Fall. Some are capable experienced riders I know, some are experienced riders I just met, some are ok riders that are smart enough to know their limitation and some don't have a clue how to ride mountainous twisties. I am sure each of you have probably experienced some level of the same thing at these 'get togethers'.
I thoroughly enjoy these rides and the camaraderie. However, over the years I have grown tired of the 'pre ride group speech' and additionally the thought that whomever is leading is responsible for riders that may be behind them. The riders behind the leader are adults and should be totally and solely responsible for their own actions... period. To suggest that their stupidity and decisions to ride over their heads is somehow the leaders fault...is simply not right. It is simply a way to not be responsible for your own decisions and actions. America has enough of this already...let's please not include it in our sport. Also as riders, perhaps we should not 'accept' the fact that people may knowingly decide to ride over their heads. Perhaps we should not put up with it instead of making concessions and telling them it is not their fault. If we allow a ******** lawsuit to happen due to this thinking, it will be the end of 'group rides'. Think about it???
I no longer lead group rides as in my mind there is no such thing as a group ride. Rather I suggest that more than one motorcyclist has gathered in a particular location and may be riding at the same time and perhaps to the same destination. I ride the way I enjoy and every other motorcyclist on these public roads rides how they enjoy. It's all good!
In place of the pre ride speech, I created a 3 page document that addresses recommendations and suggested courtesies when people accumulate and ride in mountainous areas. I do not use 'group' terminology. Also there is info on particulars of Arkansas for the benefit of riders who have not been here before. I will attempt to attach it.
* Todays Ride *
I am going for a ride today on public roads and one or more people will be riding at the same time and perhaps with the same destinations. When motorcyclists ride in mountainous remote areas, additional responsibilities and courtesies have proven to assist with a timely, enjoyable and SAFE riding experience for all motorcyclists. If you are not comfortable with this fact and willing to accept these suggestionsplease reconsider or perhaps ride elsewhere.
The street is not a racetrack! No one really cares how fast or slow you arebesides there is ALWAYS someone faster or slower than you. The only important thing is to have fun safely. First place on the streets and the true winner is the one who smiles the mostperiod!
Ride your own pace! Ride how YOU are comfortable and confident ridingnot the pace that a rider in front of you is comfortable and confident riding. I will be riding at the pace I enjoy at any given time. You are solely responsible to do the same. The most respected riders are the ones who ride within their abilities at any given time.
Potentially dangerous comments I have actually heard;
I like to follow you because I know if you can make the cornerI can make it. Sport touring bikes handle quite well...even 2 up!
I like to follow you because if I see your brake light, I know it is a bad corner. My bike has very good engine braking. More importantly, I am a dumbassthere aint no telling when or why I may hit my brakes.
I like to follow you so I can see and follow your lines. There could be a blind corner I am familiar with that may surprise/startle you.
I like to follow you because you know where all of the bad corners are located. Yes, but I have been known to daydream and look around too much.
I like to follow you so I dont have to worry about where we are. Please have a decent idea of where WE are shall that info become necessary.
I like to follow you because I ride to slow when I lead. Then you definitely need to slow down or lead for a while!
You are on a public road and solely responsible for your safety! Ride smart. Take a moment to think about all that you would have to do if you go down. Assume you are ok but your bike is unrideable. What now? How and when are you getting home and what will it cost?
Have sight of another rider at all times and be aware. There are many areas on mountainous roads where if you have an incident and no one sees it happen it could be very difficult to find you. Be aware of the tendencies of a rider that is behind you. Know how far back he/she usually rides. When safe, briefly check your mirrors to insure they are still riding. If they are not, slow till you see them and then continue. Remember, they are keeping an eye on you as well. If they do not appear in your mirror in appropriate time, stop and recall where they were the last time you saw them. Turnaround and keep your eyes peeled until you meet another rider. Stop and discuss the situation to insure fellow rider does not need assistance.
Realize at any time it is possible for a rider that is in front of you to suddenly pull away from you. Recognize when this happens and realize there is now 1 less set of eyes on each of you. Be aware of where others are on the road and lookout for their possible need for assistance.
If you are not having a serious problem but need to stopstop and wave other riders on by unless you need to communicate. Promptly continue on when you can.
Stop at every road change/intersection until the rider behind you arrives. Proceed once all known riders are accounted for. No man left behind.
Do NOT exit a road without someone knowing. If you do and no one knows, some observant and considerate motorcyclists will be looking for you!!! If for whatever reason you need to depart, inform another rider you have decided to travel another direction.
If someone is riding to close behind you when safe slow a bit move right and wave them by.
If someone is riding to slow in front of youride to their left in the high line until they wave you past. When someone waves you past, only pass when YOU deem it safe to do so.
Couple Suggestions:
If you see a mailbox, there could be hazards. Cars, driveways, gravel, pets, children, etc.
Corners that may have sand/gravel/etcstay in the high or low linedo not cross.
If you find yourself to hot in a cornerlook where you want to go, point your nose and lean it!
If you overcook a right corner that is not blind and there is no oncoming trafficit may be better to run wide into the oncoming lane rather than to stab a handful of brake.
ARKANSAS SPECIFICS:
Corner speed caution signs
Arkansas simply puts up a sign before a 'set' of corners with the direction of the first turn and the suggested speed of the tightest corner in the group. A sign that states 25 mph left hand turn ahead does not necessarily mean that the next turn is a 25mph lefty. The 25mph corner could be 3 turns away. Also, the tight corner may actually be a right hander.
Passing on double yellow
Obviously this is against the law and not suggested. However, should you attempt to pass on a downhill, make sure that you can see the entire CONTINUOUS double yellow line all the way to the >bottom< of the hill before you attempt to pass. Some hills/valleys here adjust elevation/slope several times during the decent. This can give the illusion that the lane is clear, however, there is actually an oncoming vehicle that you cannot see due to the drop in the road. Also, some (very few) locals get pissed if you attempt to pass. Be aware of a possible retaliation swerve.
SPEED Jasper, Pindell and MarshallDO NOT SPEED! Not even 1 mph over. Notorious leo/speed traps. Also 7 from the Hub to Jasper does not have speed traps but leos/park rangers do travel it often in route to/from Harrison. That road can be challenging and fun at the posted speed limit of 55mph. State police use KA band, County uses K band. If you get an alert with Ksmile!
Also, please be courteous in all of the rural small towns and adjust your speed as appropriate. No need to give motorcyclists a bad name and more importantly there could be young children playing near the streets. You would not want vehicles going down your street at 90MPH! There are plenty of roads/areas in the forests where you can get all you have the courage to attempt...so please just relax for a bit when in populated areas.
Frickin Chat
Arkansas DOT throws out sand/small gravel during winter. Should be against the law! Most will be washed off roads but in uphill/downhill corner sections there could still be accumulations. It is slick and can/will cause tire slippage. It usually is an off white lighter color than the chipseal road surface. Learn to recognize it.
Concealed Carry
Arkansas is a reciprocal state, however, you must have a permit to have a loaded handgun within immediate reach (on person or tankbag). If you do not have a legal permit your weapon must be outside immediate reach and unloaded (saddlebag).
Pace
This is where we started and where we will end. RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE...not the pace of the the rider in front of you. Be comfortable and confident your entire ride, especially towards the end of your day. Remember we are not here to race but to have a good time. The true winner is the one who smiles the most...regardless of speed!
Well I got it to paste but all of the formats are gone. Sorry for the hard and long read.
For those that may not know...I live in the heart of the AR twisties and have ridden these roads for many years. By request I lead visiting groups of riders every weekend in the Spring and Fall. Some are capable experienced riders I know, some are experienced riders I just met, some are ok riders that are smart enough to know their limitation and some don't have a clue how to ride mountainous twisties. I am sure each of you have probably experienced some level of the same thing at these 'get togethers'.
I thoroughly enjoy these rides and the camaraderie. However, over the years I have grown tired of the 'pre ride group speech' and additionally the thought that whomever is leading is responsible for riders that may be behind them. The riders behind the leader are adults and should be totally and solely responsible for their own actions... period. To suggest that their stupidity and decisions to ride over their heads is somehow the leaders fault...is simply not right. It is simply a way to not be responsible for your own decisions and actions. America has enough of this already...let's please not include it in our sport. Also as riders, perhaps we should not 'accept' the fact that people may knowingly decide to ride over their heads. Perhaps we should not put up with it instead of making concessions and telling them it is not their fault. If we allow a ******** lawsuit to happen due to this thinking, it will be the end of 'group rides'. Think about it???
I no longer lead group rides as in my mind there is no such thing as a group ride. Rather I suggest that more than one motorcyclist has gathered in a particular location and may be riding at the same time and perhaps to the same destination. I ride the way I enjoy and every other motorcyclist on these public roads rides how they enjoy. It's all good!
In place of the pre ride speech, I created a 3 page document that addresses recommendations and suggested courtesies when people accumulate and ride in mountainous areas. I do not use 'group' terminology. Also there is info on particulars of Arkansas for the benefit of riders who have not been here before. I will attempt to attach it.
* Todays Ride *
I am going for a ride today on public roads and one or more people will be riding at the same time and perhaps with the same destinations. When motorcyclists ride in mountainous remote areas, additional responsibilities and courtesies have proven to assist with a timely, enjoyable and SAFE riding experience for all motorcyclists. If you are not comfortable with this fact and willing to accept these suggestionsplease reconsider or perhaps ride elsewhere.
The street is not a racetrack! No one really cares how fast or slow you arebesides there is ALWAYS someone faster or slower than you. The only important thing is to have fun safely. First place on the streets and the true winner is the one who smiles the mostperiod!
Ride your own pace! Ride how YOU are comfortable and confident ridingnot the pace that a rider in front of you is comfortable and confident riding. I will be riding at the pace I enjoy at any given time. You are solely responsible to do the same. The most respected riders are the ones who ride within their abilities at any given time.
Potentially dangerous comments I have actually heard;
I like to follow you because I know if you can make the cornerI can make it. Sport touring bikes handle quite well...even 2 up!
I like to follow you because if I see your brake light, I know it is a bad corner. My bike has very good engine braking. More importantly, I am a dumbassthere aint no telling when or why I may hit my brakes.
I like to follow you so I can see and follow your lines. There could be a blind corner I am familiar with that may surprise/startle you.
I like to follow you because you know where all of the bad corners are located. Yes, but I have been known to daydream and look around too much.
I like to follow you so I dont have to worry about where we are. Please have a decent idea of where WE are shall that info become necessary.
I like to follow you because I ride to slow when I lead. Then you definitely need to slow down or lead for a while!
You are on a public road and solely responsible for your safety! Ride smart. Take a moment to think about all that you would have to do if you go down. Assume you are ok but your bike is unrideable. What now? How and when are you getting home and what will it cost?
Have sight of another rider at all times and be aware. There are many areas on mountainous roads where if you have an incident and no one sees it happen it could be very difficult to find you. Be aware of the tendencies of a rider that is behind you. Know how far back he/she usually rides. When safe, briefly check your mirrors to insure they are still riding. If they are not, slow till you see them and then continue. Remember, they are keeping an eye on you as well. If they do not appear in your mirror in appropriate time, stop and recall where they were the last time you saw them. Turnaround and keep your eyes peeled until you meet another rider. Stop and discuss the situation to insure fellow rider does not need assistance.
Realize at any time it is possible for a rider that is in front of you to suddenly pull away from you. Recognize when this happens and realize there is now 1 less set of eyes on each of you. Be aware of where others are on the road and lookout for their possible need for assistance.
If you are not having a serious problem but need to stopstop and wave other riders on by unless you need to communicate. Promptly continue on when you can.
Stop at every road change/intersection until the rider behind you arrives. Proceed once all known riders are accounted for. No man left behind.
Do NOT exit a road without someone knowing. If you do and no one knows, some observant and considerate motorcyclists will be looking for you!!! If for whatever reason you need to depart, inform another rider you have decided to travel another direction.
If someone is riding to close behind you when safe slow a bit move right and wave them by.
If someone is riding to slow in front of youride to their left in the high line until they wave you past. When someone waves you past, only pass when YOU deem it safe to do so.
Couple Suggestions:
If you see a mailbox, there could be hazards. Cars, driveways, gravel, pets, children, etc.
Corners that may have sand/gravel/etcstay in the high or low linedo not cross.
If you find yourself to hot in a cornerlook where you want to go, point your nose and lean it!
If you overcook a right corner that is not blind and there is no oncoming trafficit may be better to run wide into the oncoming lane rather than to stab a handful of brake.
ARKANSAS SPECIFICS:
Corner speed caution signs
Arkansas simply puts up a sign before a 'set' of corners with the direction of the first turn and the suggested speed of the tightest corner in the group. A sign that states 25 mph left hand turn ahead does not necessarily mean that the next turn is a 25mph lefty. The 25mph corner could be 3 turns away. Also, the tight corner may actually be a right hander.
Passing on double yellow
Obviously this is against the law and not suggested. However, should you attempt to pass on a downhill, make sure that you can see the entire CONTINUOUS double yellow line all the way to the >bottom< of the hill before you attempt to pass. Some hills/valleys here adjust elevation/slope several times during the decent. This can give the illusion that the lane is clear, however, there is actually an oncoming vehicle that you cannot see due to the drop in the road. Also, some (very few) locals get pissed if you attempt to pass. Be aware of a possible retaliation swerve.
SPEED Jasper, Pindell and MarshallDO NOT SPEED! Not even 1 mph over. Notorious leo/speed traps. Also 7 from the Hub to Jasper does not have speed traps but leos/park rangers do travel it often in route to/from Harrison. That road can be challenging and fun at the posted speed limit of 55mph. State police use KA band, County uses K band. If you get an alert with Ksmile!
Also, please be courteous in all of the rural small towns and adjust your speed as appropriate. No need to give motorcyclists a bad name and more importantly there could be young children playing near the streets. You would not want vehicles going down your street at 90MPH! There are plenty of roads/areas in the forests where you can get all you have the courage to attempt...so please just relax for a bit when in populated areas.
Frickin Chat
Arkansas DOT throws out sand/small gravel during winter. Should be against the law! Most will be washed off roads but in uphill/downhill corner sections there could still be accumulations. It is slick and can/will cause tire slippage. It usually is an off white lighter color than the chipseal road surface. Learn to recognize it.
Concealed Carry
Arkansas is a reciprocal state, however, you must have a permit to have a loaded handgun within immediate reach (on person or tankbag). If you do not have a legal permit your weapon must be outside immediate reach and unloaded (saddlebag).
Pace
This is where we started and where we will end. RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE...not the pace of the the rider in front of you. Be comfortable and confident your entire ride, especially towards the end of your day. Remember we are not here to race but to have a good time. The true winner is the one who smiles the most...regardless of speed!
Well I got it to paste but all of the formats are gone. Sorry for the hard and long read.
Fontanaman
Robin Trower
+1. And this is why more and more I am riding alone. The point of riding is to get away from it all for a few hours and riding with others often leads to finding new problems, instead of leaving the problems behind.
Fontanaman is an *******.... Blah, blah, blah... Ride your own ride for ***** sake.
So, there is only one reason to ride? Just to get away from it?
I guess I've been wasting my time doing all that other stuff unnecessarily. What a dope I am.
I do appreciate your position Glory Racing. In a perfect world I would be right there with you. As I said, I believe people should take personal responsibility for their own actions. Personal accountability is #1.
But I am also aware enough to realize that we do not live in a bubble of seclusion. What we say, and do, has an influence on people around us every day. Sometimes we actually care a little bit about those other people and then having something bad happen to them as a result is not a good thing for us.
We have different perspectives, maybe different goals in life, probably different values too.. I'm just a bit more concerned about having the day end on a positive note with everyone going home, than whether I was able to get let my yah-yahs out that particular day. One can always ride alone on other days to do that. YMMV
I guess I've been wasting my time doing all that other stuff unnecessarily. What a dope I am.
I do appreciate your position Glory Racing. In a perfect world I would be right there with you. As I said, I believe people should take personal responsibility for their own actions. Personal accountability is #1.
But I am also aware enough to realize that we do not live in a bubble of seclusion. What we say, and do, has an influence on people around us every day. Sometimes we actually care a little bit about those other people and then having something bad happen to them as a result is not a good thing for us.
We have different perspectives, maybe different goals in life, probably different values too.. I'm just a bit more concerned about having the day end on a positive note with everyone going home, than whether I was able to get let my yah-yahs out that particular day. One can always ride alone on other days to do that. YMMV
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HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Glory Racing, I don't think anyone is saying they would be legally responsive for someone else's mistakes, but some may feel responsible for someone that is riding behind them and crashes.
I'm with you, if I crash, that's my own fault. If you crash, well, you probably needed to ride within their limits, but even with that train of thought, some guilt may still linger.
I'm with you, if I crash, that's my own fault. If you crash, well, you probably needed to ride within their limits, but even with that train of thought, some guilt may still linger.
glory racing
Well-known member
Agreed, but the point I am trying to bring awareness to is that...If we as a group(motorcyclists) continue to foster the belief that the leader is responsible for the riders behind them...eventually there is gonna be a BS lawsuit. This is Merica, land of the free the brave and the lawsuit. Then what? Once a precedent is set who is ever gonna lead a ride knowing that they will be held responsible and accountable for anything behind them. Even if in reality and actually it was totally out of their control. No matter how 'slow' you ride, something could happen!
Point #2 is perhaps we as a group should begin to cumulatively criticize riders that ride over their heads...not make them believe that we should slow down for them and make it easier to 'keep up'. Keeping up is not important...riding within your abilities is what is important! I am not talking about someone with less skills and a slower pace, totally different scenarios.
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Glory Racing, I think we are discussing being considerate and concerned for the safety of others; not responsible for it. And some feel the leader can take some measures to enhance the safety of everyone in the group. And some leaders feel some degree of moral - rather than legal - responsibility to enhance safety if possible.
I have been involved in four group rides where a rider has crashed: one with very light damage to rider/bike; two with moderate damage to rider/bike and one with serious damage - five days hospitalization and totalled bike; one rider on point, two riders at sweep and one mid-pack. In no case was the pace too hot and an incapable rider tried to keep up. In every case it was simply operator error. In no case did the crashed rider blame anyone other than themselves, nor was anyone else actually to blame.
Now in the case of two bikes colliding, that could be a different matter.
In my opinion, I don't believe any trail lawyer worth their salt would consider the kind of suit you contemplate; they get paid only if they win...and they would not ever win such a suit and would know it. "I deserve damages because the lead rider was going at a pace too fast for me, which caused/enticed me to go too fast." It would be tossed as soon as it came before any competent judge. I have some faith in the integrity of the legal system (this includes lawyers), judges and juries, though I'm sure I will soon be castigated for it. I have seen it work effectively close-up.
And I'm with you when it comes to notions of personal responsibility.
I have been involved in four group rides where a rider has crashed: one with very light damage to rider/bike; two with moderate damage to rider/bike and one with serious damage - five days hospitalization and totalled bike; one rider on point, two riders at sweep and one mid-pack. In no case was the pace too hot and an incapable rider tried to keep up. In every case it was simply operator error. In no case did the crashed rider blame anyone other than themselves, nor was anyone else actually to blame.
Now in the case of two bikes colliding, that could be a different matter.
In my opinion, I don't believe any trail lawyer worth their salt would consider the kind of suit you contemplate; they get paid only if they win...and they would not ever win such a suit and would know it. "I deserve damages because the lead rider was going at a pace too fast for me, which caused/enticed me to go too fast." It would be tossed as soon as it came before any competent judge. I have some faith in the integrity of the legal system (this includes lawyers), judges and juries, though I'm sure I will soon be castigated for it. I have seen it work effectively close-up.
And I'm with you when it comes to notions of personal responsibility.
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glory racing
Well-known member
I am right there with ya regarding adjusting your ride. I have been leading rides for years and do exactly that every weekend. I even adjust based on the road and what I know is up ahead. That is not the issue.
A prior comment was that several FJR's would find there way to the front and the rest would tag along. Well, there ya go...on no...they were enticing others to ride faster and 'KEEP UP'. I say that is BS thinking and it happens at every 'group ride'.
I am thinking in terms of a paradigm shift regarding who gets kudos, who gets criticized and what is the main focus of the ride. Riders that do not have the discipline to ride their own ride and therefore get sucked into riding over their heads...should be banned from rides, forums, dealerships, etc. Sure that is exaggerated but simply trying to make the point.
Regarding your thoughts on the possibility of such a bs lawsuit... I pains me to say it but your are wrong. With so many riders currently believing/promoting/being comfortable/admitting that people ride over their head to stay with the group....it is just a matter of time before another lawsuit is gonna happen. Yes, another one! There has already been talk of just such a lawsuit where a gopro was used to say the leader was at fault. Unfortunately I could not locate any specifics. Additionally to prove that it happens, all a lawyer has to do is visit any moto forum and look for threads where the collective riders comment that they slow down as to not entice others to ride faster!
Please realize I am not trying to argue, stir the pot, etc. I am simply a very concerned enthusiast regarding the future of our sport. I truly do not want to be able to say...see, told ya!
A prior comment was that several FJR's would find there way to the front and the rest would tag along. Well, there ya go...on no...they were enticing others to ride faster and 'KEEP UP'. I say that is BS thinking and it happens at every 'group ride'.
I am thinking in terms of a paradigm shift regarding who gets kudos, who gets criticized and what is the main focus of the ride. Riders that do not have the discipline to ride their own ride and therefore get sucked into riding over their heads...should be banned from rides, forums, dealerships, etc. Sure that is exaggerated but simply trying to make the point.
Regarding your thoughts on the possibility of such a bs lawsuit... I pains me to say it but your are wrong. With so many riders currently believing/promoting/being comfortable/admitting that people ride over their head to stay with the group....it is just a matter of time before another lawsuit is gonna happen. Yes, another one! There has already been talk of just such a lawsuit where a gopro was used to say the leader was at fault. Unfortunately I could not locate any specifics. Additionally to prove that it happens, all a lawyer has to do is visit any moto forum and look for threads where the collective riders comment that they slow down as to not entice others to ride faster!
Please realize I am not trying to argue, stir the pot, etc. I am simply a very concerned enthusiast regarding the future of our sport. I truly do not want to be able to say...see, told ya!
This has been my approach over the decades.
ORGANIZED group rides like with GWRRA have an inferred level of obligation to participants (and carry chapter insurance). There's a reason they are so structured and lead/tail talk to each other about someone who isn't playing well in the mix. In those, I like to break the larger group up into packs (fast, medium, and slow) with a skilled lead/drag for each. Also keeping each group to 7 or less with 100 - 200 yards between the tail of the group in front and the lead of the next group. Keeping the ducklings together is the goal and riding to the lowest skills of each group is the leader's task.
Less Structured groups are along the lines of what was mentioned about each rider knowing the destination and each rider keeping the one behind in their mirrors; stopping at a turn to wait for them to catch up so they know which way the group went. Since each rider watches their mirror, there's no chance of leaving anyone behind unless some rider gets selfish and quits watching.
Informal "groups" of 2 or 3 well-known friends is what it is (barring hoonishness that puts riders out-riding their sight lines and failing to keep enough in reserve for public roads). This is the very thing that GR went into great detail to describe and one of the only kinds of "group" rides I would do ever again.
Keep in mind that all but the first type leave the fellow riders at complete risk to any legal repercussions from other riders, their surviving family members, or the public in the worst of cases. The surviving riders can claim "ride your own ride" all they want but if a successful case can be made for the example being set being one of carelessness or recklessness, then the outcome might not be in their favor.
Bottom line is that if it's public roads and not a track, track style riding might get a pass until it doesn't. When the odds stack up against the survivors it might not be as fun as they had thought. While I understand and emotionally agree with Glory Racing's sentiments, the realities of the world are at odds with it. It's what I *wished* the world was but I know it's not. I can ignore that conflict and maybe even skate by for a long time without it blowing up on me. However, if it ever does, my wealth and/or freedoms might suffer when the reality overcomes the wishful thinking.
I don't think a downed rider would put the others at risk (or at least rarely). It's the surviving family members or that bus load of nuns and a jury consisting of the general public would be easily swayed in their favor in cases of riding at 90+% on public roads (or at some other point if their case was convincing to non-riders).
ORGANIZED group rides like with GWRRA have an inferred level of obligation to participants (and carry chapter insurance). There's a reason they are so structured and lead/tail talk to each other about someone who isn't playing well in the mix. In those, I like to break the larger group up into packs (fast, medium, and slow) with a skilled lead/drag for each. Also keeping each group to 7 or less with 100 - 200 yards between the tail of the group in front and the lead of the next group. Keeping the ducklings together is the goal and riding to the lowest skills of each group is the leader's task.
Less Structured groups are along the lines of what was mentioned about each rider knowing the destination and each rider keeping the one behind in their mirrors; stopping at a turn to wait for them to catch up so they know which way the group went. Since each rider watches their mirror, there's no chance of leaving anyone behind unless some rider gets selfish and quits watching.
Informal "groups" of 2 or 3 well-known friends is what it is (barring hoonishness that puts riders out-riding their sight lines and failing to keep enough in reserve for public roads). This is the very thing that GR went into great detail to describe and one of the only kinds of "group" rides I would do ever again.
Keep in mind that all but the first type leave the fellow riders at complete risk to any legal repercussions from other riders, their surviving family members, or the public in the worst of cases. The surviving riders can claim "ride your own ride" all they want but if a successful case can be made for the example being set being one of carelessness or recklessness, then the outcome might not be in their favor.
Bottom line is that if it's public roads and not a track, track style riding might get a pass until it doesn't. When the odds stack up against the survivors it might not be as fun as they had thought. While I understand and emotionally agree with Glory Racing's sentiments, the realities of the world are at odds with it. It's what I *wished* the world was but I know it's not. I can ignore that conflict and maybe even skate by for a long time without it blowing up on me. However, if it ever does, my wealth and/or freedoms might suffer when the reality overcomes the wishful thinking.
I don't think a downed rider would put the others at risk (or at least rarely). It's the surviving family members or that bus load of nuns and a jury consisting of the general public would be easily swayed in their favor in cases of riding at 90+% on public roads (or at some other point if their case was convincing to non-riders).
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HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
FWIW, I have investigated hundreds of crashes and testified dozens of times for both criminal and civil cases involving traffic crashes. I have never seen one where a fellow driver was held responsible for another driver's actions. I've had a couple cases of cars racing and getting into crashes where a fellow driver faced liability, but proving they were racing was easy.
Look at how many organized cruiser rides end up with crashes, and I don't know of any that have resulted in a lawsuit where fellow riders were held culpable for what the guy in the crash did. Basically, that would be ludacris and placing blame for one person's decision on another person.
This has been seen in the dipshits that sue McDonalds because they're fat. The difference is McDonald's very deep pockets. Attorneys won't fight a fight they know they can win unless there is a heap of cash available. Fighting one they have a good chance of losing for whatever some poor schmuck has in his dwindling bank account isn't going to happen.
Actually, contrary to Bounce's liability perception, I would say the first group ride carries the most liability. Any club like that will have liability insurance, which will pay out before spending thousands on attorneys. The liability is increased by the rules being spelled out.
In example one, if a rider doesn't ride according to the leader's example, they can be removed from the ride, ie, not allowed to participate. So some guy who should have gotten in the slow group pulls in with the medium group and for fear of being kicked out, pushes too fast and crashes.
In the other examples, there are no requirements to ride a certain way or with a certain group. If I'm leading and riding too slow, anyone who wants is welcome to pass me. If I'm going to fast, it is upon that rider to know what they're comfortable with and slow down. There are no requirements and no punishments.
None of this is to say this type of BS hasn't been tried, or won't be tried some day, but so far, I haven't seen it. I have a somewhat unique perspective because I deal with this stuff a lot, so I have had many more opportunities to know if it did actually happen.
Look at how many organized cruiser rides end up with crashes, and I don't know of any that have resulted in a lawsuit where fellow riders were held culpable for what the guy in the crash did. Basically, that would be ludacris and placing blame for one person's decision on another person.
This has been seen in the dipshits that sue McDonalds because they're fat. The difference is McDonald's very deep pockets. Attorneys won't fight a fight they know they can win unless there is a heap of cash available. Fighting one they have a good chance of losing for whatever some poor schmuck has in his dwindling bank account isn't going to happen.
Actually, contrary to Bounce's liability perception, I would say the first group ride carries the most liability. Any club like that will have liability insurance, which will pay out before spending thousands on attorneys. The liability is increased by the rules being spelled out.
In example one, if a rider doesn't ride according to the leader's example, they can be removed from the ride, ie, not allowed to participate. So some guy who should have gotten in the slow group pulls in with the medium group and for fear of being kicked out, pushes too fast and crashes.
In the other examples, there are no requirements to ride a certain way or with a certain group. If I'm leading and riding too slow, anyone who wants is welcome to pass me. If I'm going to fast, it is upon that rider to know what they're comfortable with and slow down. There are no requirements and no punishments.
None of this is to say this type of BS hasn't been tried, or won't be tried some day, but so far, I haven't seen it. I have a somewhat unique perspective because I deal with this stuff a lot, so I have had many more opportunities to know if it did actually happen.
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Just Krusen
Well-known member
I regularly ride with about 6 or 8 friends quite often. We used to follow the group riding practices of GWRRA and never had any bad experiences.
In the last few years we have changed our riding practices. We now ride 2 bikes together staggered. If we have 8 bikes we put a LARGE space between every 2 bikes. We sometimes have the 8 bikes spread out for almost a mile. Each 2 bikes ride together like we are the only ones out for a ride. They stay together and make lane changes together. We do not use the CB to call out lane changes. Bike 2 in each group just follows bike 1 but is aware of all that is going on around him.
This makes it much easier to flow with traffic, merging and lane changes. It is much less stressful than group riding with even a small 4 or 5 bike group. We still keep in touch with the leader and very end tail bike trying to stay in CB range. As spread out as we are many cars can come and go between our groups of 2 without a problem. We also do not have a large group holding up traffic anywhere.
It is also very unlikely that our entire group can become part of an accident.
In the last few years we have changed our riding practices. We now ride 2 bikes together staggered. If we have 8 bikes we put a LARGE space between every 2 bikes. We sometimes have the 8 bikes spread out for almost a mile. Each 2 bikes ride together like we are the only ones out for a ride. They stay together and make lane changes together. We do not use the CB to call out lane changes. Bike 2 in each group just follows bike 1 but is aware of all that is going on around him.
This makes it much easier to flow with traffic, merging and lane changes. It is much less stressful than group riding with even a small 4 or 5 bike group. We still keep in touch with the leader and very end tail bike trying to stay in CB range. As spread out as we are many cars can come and go between our groups of 2 without a problem. We also do not have a large group holding up traffic anywhere.
It is also very unlikely that our entire group can become part of an accident.
I like and agree with Zilla's analysis, and Bounce makes interesting points about juries.
We hear about the rare ridiculous jury decisions or awards (because they are ridiculous) but rarely hear about the appeals where the ridiculous decisions and/or excessive awards are overturned or substantially adjusted. Yes, trials are won or lost in voir dire (jury selection) but overall good trial lawyers - plaintiff and defense attorneys - want an intelligent and sensible jury. A good friend of mine who is a plaintiff's attorney specializing in medical malpractice, says he has great respect for the sensibility and fairness of juries. They are made up of people mostly like you and me and we are sensible, fair, intelligent, right? If and when a rare jury goes off-shift, there are remedies that almost always prevail, in my view and experience. My friend will not take a case that is without merit or has only marginal merit. It's a simple business decision. When he is presented with a case that has fairly clear evidence of negligence, only then he will proceed with all due vigor. I just cannot see any responsible attorney taking a case where it is alleged other riders were negligent in "enticing" a lesser rider to ride over his head, nor would I see a jury holding other riders liable. In the case where you ask riders to sign a release, or you issue a set of written ride rules, perhaps then you open up yourself (or organization) to some perceived responsibility and potential negligence. Don't we have an actual trial lawyer on this forum? I'd be interested to hear their views.
We hear about the rare ridiculous jury decisions or awards (because they are ridiculous) but rarely hear about the appeals where the ridiculous decisions and/or excessive awards are overturned or substantially adjusted. Yes, trials are won or lost in voir dire (jury selection) but overall good trial lawyers - plaintiff and defense attorneys - want an intelligent and sensible jury. A good friend of mine who is a plaintiff's attorney specializing in medical malpractice, says he has great respect for the sensibility and fairness of juries. They are made up of people mostly like you and me and we are sensible, fair, intelligent, right? If and when a rare jury goes off-shift, there are remedies that almost always prevail, in my view and experience. My friend will not take a case that is without merit or has only marginal merit. It's a simple business decision. When he is presented with a case that has fairly clear evidence of negligence, only then he will proceed with all due vigor. I just cannot see any responsible attorney taking a case where it is alleged other riders were negligent in "enticing" a lesser rider to ride over his head, nor would I see a jury holding other riders liable. In the case where you ask riders to sign a release, or you issue a set of written ride rules, perhaps then you open up yourself (or organization) to some perceived responsibility and potential negligence. Don't we have an actual trial lawyer on this forum? I'd be interested to hear their views.
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