Hard down shifting...clutch circuit issue?

mikeames · May 18, 2016

All,

My 2012 with just under 9K miles (new to me) has developed an issue. It's hard to downshift. It started with just fifth to fourth and within about 200 miles it has spread to all the gears.

With some experimentation I found that when I pumped the clutch lever a couple of times it would almost always shift normally. I notice shifting from neutral to first has also began to have more of a clunk that usual.

When I got home I bled the clutch circuit. Before doing so I noticed that the clutch fluid was low..but not empty and the rubber thing on the top of the reserviour was sucked down into the reserviour (indicating fluid loss). After the blead I took it for a short test ride and it was somewhat better, but a day or two later the problem was back in full force.

I've ordered a master cylinder rebuild kit and a new slave cylinder. My thought is the slave is likely leaking inside as there is zero leakage externally. I figure the master is also a possibility so I ordered both sets of parts.

Seems odd to me that a four year old bike with 9K miles would have a problem like this. I've only had it for 7 months and 3K miles which makes me think it spent a lot of it's previous life sitting. The bike is in excellent physical shape.

Just wondering if any of you have any thoughts as to other likely issues that might cause these symptoms?

mikeames · May 18, 2016

I guess I should point out this bike is a regular manual shift bike...not an auto shift.

Also that I bled out all the old fluid.

RossKean · May 18, 2016

Assuming that the clutch is properly bled (no bubbles), I would suggest that you may need a clutch soak. Dry friction plates is a common problem.

Fred W · May 18, 2016

It is very difficult to get all the air out of the clutch hydraulic circuit once any gets in there. This is because the bleed nipple is at the lowest point (down at the slave) and the air is buoyant and resists travelling downward in the fluid. One trick you might try is to pull the clutch lever in and tie or strap it to the handlebar overnight. You can also try tapping on the hydraulic lines while the lever is restrained. In the morning, hopefully the bubbles will have migrated up to the top, so when you release the lever they will get sucked into the reservoir. This trick has worked many times where I had tried bleeding unsuccessfully multiple times previously.

ionbeam · May 18, 2016

After you have ridden your FJR, put it on the center stand with the engine running. Put the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in. Does the rear wheel come to a stop or nearly a stop? Can you (carefully) stop a slow rotating wheel with you toe? If you can stop the wheel the clutch is working. If the wheel doesn't slow down or continues to be driven forcefully then you have a clutch issue.

A number of Gen II bikes have had issues with plates being dry and sticking. A cleaning and oil soak almost always fixes the problem.

If the clutch is working then you would need to pull the left foot peg/shifter assembly off to clean and lube the pivot behind the plate.

I can't tell you how rare it would be to have problems with the clutch master cylinder or slave cylinder at just 9k miles.

Since the bike is New To You who knows what the previous owner may have done, expect the unexpected

mcatrophy · May 18, 2016

I'd be very surprised if it was a clutch soak issue judging by the symptoms. Certainly wouldn't cause low fluid in the reservoir.

But it's an easy job, can't do any harm, may improve clutch action generally. (And I've been surprised before

)

rbentnail · May 18, 2016

1st indication on my '07 that it's time for an engine oil change- hard downshifting, particularly in the higher gears.

mikeames · May 18, 2016

I'm about halfway to an oil change.

I have been wondering if the slave cylinder is leaking...where is the fluid going...most likely into the oil. A little brake fluid in the oil probably isn't helping either.

I haven't researched the clutch soak thing...but I've put about 2500 miles on the bike up until now with none of these issues. All the possible "sitting" time happened before I bought the bike. I would think I would have had problems before now, no?

Thanks all, lots of ideas to try.

Constant Mesh · May 18, 2016

If the fluid level has dropped then it's likely leaking at the slave. As the clutch friction discs wear the slave piston's equilibrium position changes slightly with a corresponding change of the fluid level in the reservoir.

With the bike on the centerstand you might tilt it a bit to the right by putting a thin board under the left centerstand leg. This will help move any air in the slave to the left side to the bleed screw. Also turn the handlebar to the extreme right position. This will help move air in the master cylinder area to the open port in the MC and out into the reservoir.

It's quite easy to bleed/change the fluid.

With everything tilted to the right as I've described, attach a hose to the bleeder screw and suspend the hose in a container of brake fluid. Open the bleeder screw. Make sure that there is an adequate supply of fluid in the MC reservoir. Slowly pump the clutch MC lever until no more bubbles appear at the bleeder hose. Close the bleeder screw. Refill the reservoir when done.

For an extreme case one might remove the slave cylinder and push in the piston, propelling any air trapped in the slave out through the bleeder hose. I've done this successfully on one of my cars when the clutch pedal exhibited a hint of trapped air.

Mihalis fjr · May 18, 2016

Remove this thing ''slave cylinder'' and have a look if leaking fluid inside there.One minute job!

Also it isn't easy for the brake fluid to go into the engine/oil.

There is a seal N.24 in the microfiche :https://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2012/FJR1300A+-+FJR13ABL/CLUTCH/parts.html

Barn Boy · May 18, 2016

I thought that my Gen I had a clutch master cylinder that was bad because the second through fourth up shifts were notchy and would miss shifts for no apparent reason. After some thread research I decided to adjust the shift lever position. It took about three tries to find the sweet spot for the lever position and my fat foot.

Since the bike is new to you, that might be an easy and good place to start. It made a big difference in mine.

mikeames · May 18, 2016

Mihalis fjr said:
Remove this thing ''slave cylinder'' and have a look if leaking fluid inside there.One minute job!

Also it isn't easy for the brake fluid to go into the engine/oil.

There is a seal N.24 in the microfiche :https://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2012/FJR1300A+-+FJR13ABL/CLUTCH/parts.html

Hum, you are correct, there is a seal in there. I've been hesitant to pull it apart until replacement parts arrive not being sure if there was oil in there and what sort of mess it will make. Thank you for pointing that out.

N4HHE · May 18, 2016

Had to flush the fluid in my GL1800 every 2 years because if I didn't then by 3 years the clutch would quit working.

Pumping clutch or brake doesn't work well for evacuating bubbles because the bubble runs right back up to the highest point between every pump. This kit (currently $35) https://www.harborfreight.com/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html is much cheaper than new master and slave cylinders. With an air compressor you can start this thing sucking while you feed new fluid from the top. Fluid never stops moving and that seems to be good enough to pull air bubbles through.

HotRodZilla · May 18, 2016

Have you taken your lever apart and checked it out? Shouldn't be worn much with such low mileage, but worth a check to take apart, clean and lube the lever and the bushing.

I'm going to agree that it sounds like you have air in there, and that you have a leak somewhere. Personally I think you're on the right track, but have you ever checked the fluid level before? I wonder if the original owner didn't do something that led to a fluid drop and just left it that way...

wfooshee · May 19, 2016

Lever bushing?? I'm sure I don't know what you mean...... but that IS a definite possibility. A badly worn bushing will have the lever physically unable to fully depress the master cylinder, and that bushing is a much easier fix than a cylinder rebuild.

That hole on the back of my lever is where the pin to the master cylinder had worn all the way through the bushing and then through the lever. It didn't move anywhere near as far as it was supposed to after that, but I'm sure it wasn't getting full range of motion for quite a while before, too!

mikeames · May 19, 2016

Took the slave cylinder off and see no leakage.

Bled it with Speedbleeders the first time. I'll try some other methods.

I'll check the lever too.

audiowize · May 19, 2016

I had a similar issue with my rear brake, where I could bleed it and get the actuation I was looking for, but it would soften up and suck terribly after a day or two. The reservoir was also bone dry the last time I dealt with this. I spent a bunch of money on parts to rebuild the whole system, but before they arrived, I popped off the right bag one day and noticed a light film of oil all over the caliper.

To make a long story short, the banjo bolt on the hydraulic line at the caliper was just loose enough to let a little fluid out and a lot of air in. You may just have a loose bolt at the slave or the master that's causing all your troubles.

mikeames · May 19, 2016

I looked up the "Clutch Soak" that many speak of... I did not realize that the clutches are not really sitting in oil like so many other bikes. Now the clutch soak seams to make a little more sense. Still, I ride the bike pretty frequently and I wouldn't think the plates would be drying out, but it may be worth a shot if some of the easier things don't resolve my issue.

mcatrophy · May 19, 2016

mikeames said:
I looked up the "Clutch Soak" that many speak of... I did not realize that the clutches are not really sitting in oil like so many other bikes. Now the clutch soak seams to make a little more sense. Still, I ride the bike pretty frequently and I wouldn't think the plates would be drying out, but it may be worth a shot if some of the easier things don't resolve my issue.

They don't so much dry out as never really get wet. Also some soakers report a deposit on the metal plates, probably burnt-on left-over grease from storage prior to the factory build.

My soak thread here, pictorial "how-to" here.

FWIW, I've a video that shows some oil splashing around with the engine running:

There is some debate about whether or not there's an oil feed along the shaft. I don't see much oil flying out from the clutch assembly.

Hard down shifting...clutch circuit issue?

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