Hard down shifting...clutch circuit issue?

[RaYzerman19]

I agree you don't have a clutch problem. Let's hope you don't have to dive in to get at that spring. I vote check/re-check the shift linkage mechanism and go from there.

 

[Biquer]

Do a clutch soak anyway, even if the evidence is against it, it can't hurt. I had the same symptoms on my '08 with 70,000 miles. I did a clutch soak (overnight) and it cured it. Problem is however, a couple of thousand more miles on and I can feel that it's very slowly coming back!

 

[mikeames]

Biquer...

I most likey will when I get the cover off. Waiting for a new gasket right now. Won't be here till next week.

 

[mikeames]

I double checked the shift lever and linkage today just to be sure. There is still a little "squish" left in the spring washer and the lever has just a bit of slop so it's not binding. Both rod ends were previously dry, but I greased them when i had it apart a few days ago. Still moving freely.

It tried firing it up in the garage on the center stand and I cannot replicate the shifting issues while on the centerstand. While riding it takes a significant increase in downward pressure especially from fifth and second gears.

I also checked clutch disengagement in Sometimes the others too but not quite as bad. all five gears. The wheel stops spinning in one or two rpms and as you let the clutch out it doesn't engage until the handle is about an inch from the grip.

Puzzling...

Maybe when I get the cover gasket and pulled the clutch next week I'll find something in the other end of the shift linkage.

I double checked the shift lever and linkage today just to be sure. There is still a little "squish" left in the spring washer and the lever has just a bit of slop so it's not binding. Both rod ends were previously dry, but I greased them when i had it apart a few days ago. Still moving freely.

It tried firing it up in the garage on the center stand and I cannot replicate the shifting issues while on the centerstand. While riding it takes a significant increase in downward pressure especially from fifth and second gears.

I also checked clutch disengagement in Sometimes the others too but not quite as bad. all five gears. The wheel stops spinning in one or two rpms and as you let the clutch out it doesn't engage until the handle is about an inch from the grip.

Puzzling...

Maybe when I get the cover gasket and pulled the clutch next week I'll find something in the other end of the shift linkage.

 

[Constant Mesh]

The clutch hydraulic line is not all hose. You see a hose at the slave cylinder and at the master cylinder but in between those two hose sections there is a length of bare tubing beneath the fuel tank adjacent to the frame. Obviously there are two hose to tubing junctions under the tank. Maybe one of those junctions has a tiny leak which dribbles some fluid every time you squeeze the lever.

You've got to identify and fix the leak. You shouldn't be experiencing any liquid level change in the MC reservoir.

If anything, the level would rise a tiny bit as the clutch friction plates get thinner with use.

If you put the bike on the centerstand and operate the shifter with your hand you can easily see if the shift lever is moving freely and springing back to the resting center position as you slowly rotate the wheel and shift gears.

 

[mikeames]

Fluid level is fine. It seemed low the first time I checkec it....but it was the first time i checked it. Subsequent times the level has stayed the same.

The lever functions as indicated.

I only have the downshifting issue when riding. I have not been able to replicate it on the center stand, engine running or not.

 

[lonerider]

Fifth to fourth downshift on my '07 has always been stubborn, especially when cold. I just got in the habit of pulling in the clutch, blipping the throttle, and downshifting. Makes the downshift much easier on mine.

 

[mikeames]

Fifth to fourth downshift on my '07 has always been stubborn, especially when cold. I just got in the habit of pulling in the clutch, blipping the throttle, and downshifting. Makes the downshift much easier on mine.

Blipping the throttle helps with mine too. However mine had no issue a few hundred miles ago, and now it does.

 

[Fred W]

I'm in agreement with the others that are saying it is NOT a clutch issue. If you had clutch drag for any reason the rear wheel would keep spinning when you have it up on the center stand, in gear, and pulled in the clutch. So that eliminates all kinds of prior suggestions.

Your description of the problem being increased resistance to shift )have to press it harder) also makes it seem like it is NOT a return to center ratchet mechanism issue. You can test what that feels like yourself: Down shift once, but intentionally do not let the lever return to center and then press the sifter down again. What you will (should) feel is the lever pushes to the bottom very easily, with minimum resistance, but doesn't shift down (because it never got back to center).

Quite honestly, I do not know what the heck this problem is. The description is of something that is not a common failure mode.

 

[mikeames]

Yup, it has been a real frustration so far. It makes the bike no fun to ride other than at a lazy pace. I go to downshift and instead of normal pressure I have to push 2-3 times harder and it throws off my rhythm completely.

I'll figure it out eventually. Just have to keep truing things.

 

[ionbeam]

Just a suggestion... The next time you find the bike doesn't want to shift under normal toe pressure slightly let the clutch out and then pull it in again and see if it shifts normally after that. If it helps let us know because this would be a clue (not clutch related). If it doesn't help, then never mind

 

[mikeames]

Just a suggestion... The next time you find the bike doesn't want to shift under normal toe pressure slightly let the clutch out and then pull it in again and see if it shifts normally after that. If it helps let us know because this would be a clue (not clutch related). If it doesn't help, then never mind

I'll try that, however I already know that if I squeeze the clutch lever twice or in most cases just hold the lever down for about "one-1000" count it tends to shift fine. What you suggest is a slightly different so I'll give that a whirl...

Busy with a bunch of end of term school work right now and not much time for riding for another week or so. Plus I'm waiting on a side cover gasket for the side cover that houses the clutch so I can open it up and have a look around.

 

[eflyguy]

... I already know that if I squeeze the clutch lever twice or in most cases just hold the lever down for about "one-1000" count it tends to shift fine.

I've followed this but not too closely, so this may have been covered.. I'm also no expert, so this is just my $0.02.. (/disclaimer)

.. but given what you just said, it sounds unrelated to the actual shift mechanism and definitely related to the clutch.

Here's why I think so - I clutchless shift a great deal, and do it by pre-loading the shift lever before blipping the throttle (closing slightly on up-shift, more throttle slightly on down-shift).

What's happening is the "load" on the gears due to the force of the engine driving the wheels, or the force of the wheel decelerating the engine, "locks" them in-place. As you adjust the RPM, that friction is released momentarily and the gears will slip into place.

Here's the key part - you can feel the release of pressure through the shift lever on your foot. There is resistance and then there is none. It takes a little effort to learn how much pressure to apply, because too much can force the change before the RPMs are correct, and the shift is not smooth. When you get it right, though, it's awfully gratifying.

So if holding the clutch in, or pulling it twice, releases that pressure, it *has* to be related to the engagement of the wheels to the engine - which in normal shifting, means the clutch is not disengaging.

Now this is contrary to what you say about the wheel not rotating with the clutch pulled with the bike on the center stand, or (iirc) only happening in certain gears. On that, I have nothing..

 

[mikeames]

Pulled clutch cover off today. Found that in fact several of the clutch plates were bone dry. A couple even had what appeared to be clutch dust on them. Soaking them over night and will reassemble tomorow.

Even if it doesn't solve my problem, it shouldn't hurt anything.

Looked at other end of shift linkage machanism (behind clutch). All the springs seem to be there and in correct working order.

Remove clutch short shaft the sticks out of the middle of the clutch. O-ring is in perfect shape. Oiled and reinstalled (made sure ball was there).

Maybe the clutch soak will help....

 

[Constant Mesh]

"... I already know that if I squeeze the clutch lever twice or in most cases just hold the lever down for about "one-1000" count it tends to shift fine."

Squeezing the lever two times (pumping it up) would suggest air in the clutch hydraulics or possibly a leaky master cylinder seal.

 

[mikeames]

Road it 60 miles today with zero shifting issues after the clutch soak.

I did pull the short clutch rod out and lube it while I had the clutch apart...and I supposed that could have some effect on this problem but I didn't see anything wrong with the rod.

Clutch soak seems like an odd fix for these symptoms, but that seams to have been the culprit.

Now I'm wondering how long this soaking will last.

I found some of the disks were actually bone dry. No oil on them at all. They actually had a slight bit of clutch powder on them.

Just doesn't seem like what should be a wet clutch should be so dry and have the plates look so different between each other.

Hope this and more frequent riding than the PO cures it for good. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Fred W]

I already told you the "fix". You just have to lay it down on its right side every now and then to wet those clutch plates.

This doesn't really take much additional effort since these fat girls are always wanting to take a nap all on their own.

More seriously, glad you seem to have sorted it out. It's not even that hard to do, right? Just have to get off your ass and do the job when the symptoms suggest it.

 

[mikeames]

Kind of like cow tipping right? Just run out in the garage when she's asleep and...

Easy enough job, but it seems obvious to me that one should not have to do this. It's an indication of either a problem with the design or a problem with a number of these bikes...this being one of those.

Again, curious if with normal use the problem returns and in how many miles.

We'll see how this plays out.

 

[RossKean]

FWIW I have not had to do a clutch soak on my '07 although I know lots of folks have had issues with various years. If the disks have been well cleaned and soaked, I think there is a pretty good chance it is fixed for good.

 

[mikeames]

Btw, I did notice that the pink dots were all over the place when I pulled the plates out. I put them back in at the slot with the triangles.

Doubt that would be the problem but I thought I'd mention it for those who are interested in the pink dots...