Hard down shifting...clutch circuit issue?

[Mr. BR]

I love that video.. if they dropped it into first gear, you could see the entire center hub of the clutch snap (clunk) to an immediate halt!

Looking at the schematic in my Yam shop manual, the main transmission shaft is fed with oil pressure and there is one hole which allows oil to feed the large needle bearing for the actual clutch basket. The schematic does not, however, clearly show an oil path any further into the center hub of the clutch (which is where it is needed!). IMO, it's the tight fit of the outer-most clutch actuation rod inside the main-shaft that prevents the flow of oil; my guess is that is by design tho' I can't imagine why.

Mr. BR

 

[Constant Mesh]

The bearing between the push rod and the pressure plate is out beyond the discs. It must be receiving a supply of oil from somewhere.

 

[mikeames]

Well I rebuilt my clutch master cylinder, disassembled and cleaned the slave and then bled it all with my vacuum bleeder a few days ago and I still have the hard shifting issue.

Yesterday I changed my oil even tho it only has 2500 miles on the oil. After about 30 miles I see no difference. It has occurred to me that due to the fact that the cluch pack is not bathed in oil it may take a while for the new oil to fully libricate the clutch pack with new oil.

This evening I decided to go ahead and replace the slave cylinder with a brand new one since I already had it...and bled the system again. I also pulled apart the shift linkage and cleaned and lubed all that. The little rod ends were dry as a bone and squeaked when I moved them around.

I'll try to ride it tomorrow and see if the new slave makes any difference. The old one was in pretty good shape, but you never know.

If this doesnt work all I can think of that I haven't done is the "clutch soak" thing....but I have a hard time accepting the idea that a bike i've been riding pretty regularly for 3000 miles over the last five months would have a problem with the clutch disks drying out or whatever happens to them. I've been wrong before tho and it'll be worth a try.

If that doesn't do it the I'm not sure what to do from there.

 

[Donal]

Well I rebuilt my clutch master cylinder, disassembled and cleaned the slave and then bled it all with my vacuum bleeder a few days ago and I still have the hard shifting issue.Yesterday I changed my oil even tho it only has 2500 miles on the oil. After about 30 miles I see no difference. It has occurred to me that due to the fact that the cluch pack is not bathed in oil it may take a while for the new oil to fully libricate the clutch pack with new oil.

This evening I decided to go ahead and replace the slave cylinder with a brand new one since I already had it...and bled the system again. I also pulled apart the shift linkage and cleaned and lubed all that. The little rod ends were dry as a bone and squeaked when I moved them around.

I'll try to ride it tomorrow and see if the new slave makes any difference. The old one was in pretty good shape, but you never know.

If this doesnt work all I can think of that I haven't done is the "clutch soak" thing....but I have a hard time accepting the idea that a bike i've been riding pretty regularly for 3000 miles over the last five months would have a problem with the clutch disks drying out or whatever happens to them. I've been wrong before tho and it'll be worth a try.

If that doesn't do it the I'm not sure what to do from there.

Watching this thread with interest. If anything has helped it will be the two sentences in BOLD...............

 

[Fred W]

You could try just laying the bike over on its right side overnight with the clutch lever pulled in.

That'll get some oil on those clutch plates!

 

[rbentnail]

Yesterday I changed my oil even tho it only has 2500 miles on the oil. After about 30 miles I see no difference. It has occurred to me that due to the fact that the cluch pack is not bathed in oil it may take a while for the new oil to fully libricate the clutch pack with new oil.

As said earlier, the clutch isn't bathed in oil or running in an oil sump. More like: It gets a little spritz of oil now and then. What it has now is likely all it's gonna get.

 

[mikeames]

Still having the shifting issue.

Ordered a cover gasket. Plan to try the "clutch soak" idea.

 

[N4HHE]

As said earlier, the clutch isn't bathed in oil or running in an oil sump. More like: It gets a little spritz of oil now and then. What it has now is likely all it's gonna get.

A spinning clutch is not going to get "soaked" in oil no matter what. Then consider what would happen if the oil level of a resting engine was 1/4 way up the clutch plates? If the soaking theories are accurate you now have 1/4 of the clutch with a differing set of properties which can only be bad.

I think the specific oil used has more to do with clutch behavior and shifting than anything. Second place is air or low fluid level in the hydraulic actuation circuit.

 

[mikeames]

I would tend to agree with you however I've been through the clutch hydraulic circuit and changed the oil using a different oil.

Many people seem to have had some success with the clutch soak and it's easy enough and inexpensive enough to try.

I've done everything else suggested on this forum

Beginning to worry that I might actually have a tranny problem on a four year old bike with 9k miles on it. I would think that would be almost unheard of.

I'll figire it out sooner or later.

 

[Fred W]

I seriously doubt your transmission is messed up. When the shift dogs get worn the only symptom is the trans won't stay in gear. I've never heard of a worn transmission that is harder to get into gear (upshift or down shift).

I know that you said you have been all over the clutch hydraulics, but it is probably worth comparing how it feels to a normally operating bike. Where the resistance begins, how much resistance you feel, and how much "stroke" you get on the clutch lever. I still would think that is where your problem is.

 

[ionbeam]

Post #5 offered a really simple way to determine if you have a clutch or shift linkage problem so you can be sure of what you are troubleshooting. That same post also said to lube the shift linkage pivot behind the rider's peg, that is the trouble point, not the rod ends which you found to be dry and squeaky. Trouble only when downshifting is almost always shift linkage related because the shift spool doesn't return the center position. So, did ya do the check & lube? I didn't see it mentioned.

 

[RossKean]

^^^ +1

With respect to the shifter pivot ionbeam mentions, it is critical that it is clean, well lubed and moves freely. When re-installing it, make sure you do not tighten it too much (DAMHIK).

 

[Donal]

Post #5 offered a really simple way to determine if you have a clutch or shift linkage problem so you can be sure of what you are troubleshooting. That same post also said to lube the shift linkage pivot behind the rider's peg, that is the trouble point, not the rod ends which you found to be dry and squeaky. Trouble only when downshifting is almost always shift linkage related because the shift spool doesn't return the center position. So, did ya do the check & lube? I didn't see it mentioned.

One of my pre-ride checks is to 'flick' the gear shift lever up & down with my finger just to check that it moves and returns freely. It is something that gets close attention during routine maintenance.

 

[mikeames]

Shifter pivot point disassembled, cleaned, and relubricated along with the two rod ends. It was a little dry, and very dirty but had some grease on it. It moved a bit more freely after the clean and lube but was never sticky at the pivot point.

When I start the bike on the center (cold) stand (in neutral) the rear tire slowly rotates and it can easily be stopped with slight finger pressure. In 1st gear with the clutch out the wheel turns, when you pull in the clutch the wheel stops turning within about one revolution.

I've checked the clutch lever pivot point (plus cleaned and relubed) there is no slop to speak of. It has adjustable levers and I've moved the lever to the extents of its adjustability and it makes no difference.

I've bled the clutch hydraulic system several times, using both the speedbleeders and using a vacuum system. I also tried the zip tie the lever in all night method.

I torque everything pretty religeously. I have a Yamaha shop manual.

Master cylinder has been rebuilt and slave cylinder replaced with a brand new one.

This all began over the last 250 miles or so. Fifth gear being the worst. Probably second gear behind that. Only when down shifting. Upshifting is smooth.

If I squeaze the clutch lever twice or hold it down about a second it usually shifts fine.

Bike is a 2012. It had 6k miles when I bought it in November and I've put 3k miles on it since for a total of 9k miles. The bike looked and ran flawless when I bought it. Zero indication of wrecks or mechanical intrusion.

My suspicion at this point is something on the opposite side of the clutch slave cylinder being sticky or bent or somthing internal in the shifter mechanism that isn't working right. I can take a look at some of that when I pull the clucth cover off.

It is also possible that a hose that is not leaking externally has a small bubble or something in the lining allowing some amount of flex.

I'll figure it out sooner or later.

 

[ionbeam]

If the wheel comes to a stop, in gear with the clutch pulled in you do not have a clutch problem. At least IMO. Your clutch hydraulic system in its entirety is developing enough pressure to open the clutch plates. The clutch plates are releasing completely, they not stuck together if the rear wheel stops spinning.

It still sounds like the shift spool isn't returning to the center position for some reason.

When putting the peg pivot back together the FSM specs too much torque and it collapses the wave washer causing the joint to bind even though it is clean and lubricated. The pivot should be loose enough that the wave washer can keep the shift lever from moving back and forth. If there is on back/forth (in/out?) movement the screw on the pivot is too tight.

 

[RossKean]

Isn't there a spring in there to enable the ratcheting back to the center spot?? Haven't looked at the manual recently but seems to me that someone had a problem with that in the past...?

 

[ionbeam]

Isn't there a spring in there to enable the ratcheting back to the center spot?? Haven't looked at the manual recently but seems to me that someone had a problem with that in the past...?

Yes, there is a weak spring to assist the shifter to return to a zero location and yes, someone had the spring break.

 

[mikeames]

Isn't there a spring in there to enable the ratcheting back to the center spot?? Haven't looked at the manual recently but seems to me that someone had a problem with that in the past...?

Yes, there is a weak spring to assist the shifter to return to a zero location and yes, someone had the spring break.

I should be able to have a look at this spring and mechanism when I have the side cover for the clucth off correct?

Ionbeam... I'll check the tension of the shifter arm pivot bolt.

Once again, a few more good thoughts from the FJR group!

 

[RossKean]

Maybe this one??

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/162413-2012-fjr-wont-shift/?hl=%2B%2Bspring+%2B%2Bratchet&do=findComment&comment=1217563

 

[mikeames]

Maybe this one??https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/162413-2012-fjr-wont-shift/?hl=++spring+++ratchet#entry1217563

And some great info there too.

Thank you for that.