Does Radar work on Bikes? Hell yes...

I've had discussions in the past with fellow bikers about whether or not a police radar can target a bike as well as it does a larger vehicle...some think it cant lock on, while I and others think it definitely can, thus the reason I have a radar detector installed. That argument has been solved for me because yesterday I got a performance award from a state trooper. I took off my radar detector Tuesday after work because I wanted to mount it more central on the FJR. Wednesday I rode to work without it, knowing that I'd be re-mounting either Wed or Thursday nite after work . Get off work last nite around 5:30, and decide to ride a few miles to de-stress. Naturally, as I'm about 2 miles from home, I get zapped. I was clocked at 67 in a 50 zone. This morning I took off my Garmin 2610 to check my track log to see if the trooper's radar gun and my GPS agreed. I downloaded track from GPS to the MapSource software, then checked segment speeds to where he told me he clocked me. Speeds were right on! Below is pic of the track log.



He got me as I was exiting that curve (67 mph) and pulled me over where the little dots are all clustered on the extreme right hand side of the graphic. So next time anyone wonders if they can accurately get you on a bike, tell em HELL YEAH!

Jay

'0r FJR 1300

At least you have written proof that you don't slow down in the corners...

What did he hit you with? I got hit with laser the other day and my Passport X-50 started screaming but only when I was right on top of him. Luckily I was having a moment of zen and was puttering along at the speed limit so I didn't get a ticket but I did get a stain in my shorts. Often have wondered how many other tickets the cop is going to write when he stops you for speeding and sees the detector.

Kind of funny, in a sick kind of way, to see your speeds after you left the scene of the crime...

You could try Radar attenuating paint

I don't know what band he hit me with, since I was radardetectorless. Around here though, they usually are using X or Ka. This was just outside the city limits.

Jay

'04 FJR 1300

As you and many, many others have discovered, radar reads bikes just fine. When a FJR faces the radar gun head on the distance at which the gun will lock your speed is roughly 25-50% that of a car. If the gun could lock a car at 1 mile it won't lock a FJR until 1/2 a mile or less. If the officer is correctly running the speed enforcement zone he will wait until you are within a speed locking distance before pulling the trigger on the gun. Radar guns offer power control, power = distance at which a vehicle speed can be read. Newer guns can read speeds farther out with less power so there is less scatter for detectors to pick up. Some newer guns emit such a short pulse that it can read your speed without your detector even alerting you.

Awareness, visibility along the roadways, risk assessment for the area you are traveling in, stupidity control and lastly luck will help almost as much as a good radar detector. You will almost never beat a properly run speed enforcement patrol, no matter what counter measures you use. There is one diabolically clever way to avoid tickets -- don't speed. It's just that I can't drive the speed limit :huh:

I have always heard that if you were in a group of moving objects, that the radar would lock on the largest and not necessarily the fastest. Anybody know if this is true?

ionbeam said:

As you and many, many others have discovered, radar reads bikes just fine. When a FJR faces the radar gun head on the distance at which the gun will lock your speed is roughly 25-50% that of a car. If the gun could lock a car at 1 mile it won't lock a FJR until 1/2 a mile or less. If the officer is correctly running the speed enforcement zone he will wait until you are within a speed locking distance before pulling the trigger on the gun. Radar guns offer power control, power = distance at which a vehicle speed can be read. Newer guns can read speeds farther out with less power so there is less scatter for detectors to pick up. Some newer guns emit such a short pulse that it can read your speed without your detector even alerting you.
Awareness, visibility along the roadways, risk assessment for the area you are traveling in, stupidity control and lastly luck will help almost as much as a good radar detector. You will almost never beat a properly run speed enforcement patrol, no matter what counter measures you use. There is one diabolically clever way to avoid tickets -- don't speed. It's just that I can't drive the speed limit :huh:

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There are several countermeasures, including invisible paint, available from this catalog. Note however that some users have found the results to be less than satisfactory. As Mr. Beam said, there's only one sure way and that's almost impossible for many of us. Myself included :lol:

I have always heard that if you were in a group of moving objects, that the radar would lock on the largest and not necessarily the fastest. Anybody know if this is true?

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True. You can be riding along doing 65 in a 65 mph zone and half a mile behind you there can be a tractor trailer going 80 mph, assuming the power level is up on the gun, it will read the 18 wheeler. If the cop is careless you will get the ticket. Most states require the officer to lock speed 2 or more times before they can ticket.

Ten cars are traveling along at roughly the same speed, all in a group. Out comes the cruiser with lights flashing and he picks the third car in line. Upon approaching the civil miscreant that was endangering the public safety, the miscreant says to the officer, "I was the third car in line, I couldn't have been going faster than the lead car. Why did you stop me?" The officer says, "Did ya ever go fishing?" The dangerous driver says, "Why yes. What does that have to do with this?" The officer says, "Have you ever caught all the fish?"

Next time some PD plops one of those radar trailers down near your house, use it to experiement. I spent 2 or 3 commutes playing with one once. It taught me a lot about how the bike is locked in at constant speed, under heavy acceleration, and during max braking.

If anyone asks, you're conducting scientific experiments.

Next time some PD plops one of those radar trailers down near your house, use it to experiement....It taught me a lot about how the bike is locked in at constant speed

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+1!!! I consider the trailers to be a great public service. I know how both my car and bike behave in the radar beam. It helps me to be able to run both my car and bike through the same setup and compare the speed lock differences.

Back to Scabs earlier comment about traffic around you... On Feejer I can be approaching the trailer with no speed showing on the board, then the car way behind me comes into range and POP, on comes the speed sign. While I may be going 30 mph the speed board is reading 40 mph, most definitely reading the car behind me. I need to be almost on top of the trailer before it switches to me. You have to get pretty close to the speed trailer before the bike's reflected signal is stronger than the car behind you.

Scab said:

I have always heard that if you were in a group of moving objects, that the radar would lock on the largest and not necessarily the fastest. Anybody know if this is true?

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Doesn't matter with LIDAR (laser). You can be picked out of a pack at 2500' with no trouble at all. With traditional radar, though, you are correct, Scab.

...taking notes for future legal defense...

Hey, it ain't 'if' but 'when'.

Scab said:

...taking notes for future legal defense...

Hey, it ain't 'if' but 'when'.

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My co-workers are gonna kill me for that one. Just make sure you quote "FJR_pig" in court and not my real name...

ionbeam said:

I have always heard that if you were in a group of moving objects, that the radar would lock on the largest and not necessarily the fastest. Anybody know if this is true?

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True. You can be riding along doing 65 in a 65 mph zone and half a mile behind you there can be a tractor trailer going 80 mph, assuming the power level is up on the gun, it will read the 18 wheeler. If the cop is careless you will get the ticket. Most states require the officer to lock speed 2 or more times before they can ticket.

Ten cars are traveling along at roughly the same speed, all in a group. Out comes the cruiser with lights flashing and he picks the third car in line. Upon approaching the civil miscreant that was endangering the public safety, the miscreant says to the officer, "I was the third car in line, I couldn't have been going faster than the lead car. Why did you stop me?" The officer says, "Did ya ever go fishing?" The dangerous driver says, "Why yes. What does that have to do with this?" The officer says, "Have you ever caught all the fish?"

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Yeah, we had a really informative post from a fellow XX rider who is a LEO on another board about a year ago. He had brought a radar/lidar gun to a meet in the high desert and used it in some high speed runs by members on XXs. Top speed was 190, second was 188 mph -- at about 5,000 ft elevation, with some mods to these two bikes -- most stock XXs were topping out just under 170 at that elevation. (Please, no comments on whether he could have gotten in trouble for any of this -- the guy is a really good guy: the kind you hope is going to be the one who stops you on your bike.) I'm posting this by memory, since the post was lost after the board crashed.

He said most radar guns discriminate based upon mass, but there are some (more expensive models) that discriminate based upon highest speed. Fortunately, most departments have few of the more expensive models.

With no other vehicles on the straight road where the speed runs were clocked, he had no problem locking on every bike, including the ones treated with paint, special wind shields, etc. He referred to radar as the lazy cop's dream -- hard to screw up. As to the lidar, the only bike he had trouble getting a lock on (it registered, but he couldn't get a lock) was one with a red irridium-like wind screen. Radar sends out a wider beam than lidar, and is easier to get a lock on the speeding object anywhere in its field. Lidar is more acccurate, but requires it to be better aimed by the officer using it.

He said most radar guns discriminate based upon mass, but there are some (more expensive models) that discriminate based upon highest speed. Fortunately, most departments have few of the more expensive models.

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Very basic: The radar gun turns on and emits a microwave beam, the radiating antenna shuts off, the receiving antenna turns on. When the microwaves strike an object they get reflected back. The radar gun's receiving antenna picks up the reflected waves. Microwaves travel at a predictable rate, there is a delay between emit and receive. Speed & time=distance, do the math. Repeat the emit, receive. Do the math. Compare reading 1 with reading 2. The difference is speed. (Any techie perverts wanna discuss phase-angle measurements? )

Radar striking a large, flat, solid object will return a strong signal. Radar striking a soft object will return a weak signal. Radar striking a highly angular surface will reflect, but will not reflect directly back to the gun causing a weaker signal due to scattering. Most motorcycles are small, somewhat soft and angular. Kenworth 18 wheeler is flat, hard and square. Motorcycle reflected signal is scattered and weak. Kenworth is a strong signal.

When the radar gun is receiving signals back, it is easier for it to read the strong signals, therefore the gun manufacturers designed the guns to lock on the strong signal and to do the math on the strong signal. In these days of digital signal processing the radar guns have the option to sort through several reflected signals independent of signal strength and pick out the signal from the vehicle with the fastest speed. The gun knows which signal is indicating the fastest speed -- but -- does the officer know which vehicle it is?

In an ugly twist of fate, some headlight reflector buckets are close to being a perfect parabolic dish shape for focusing microwaves and returning a signal back to the gun that is equal to the Kenworth. Bummer, eh?

BTW, I occasionally rode in my brother's cruiser during his patrol days. He used to point to a car, say "68 mph"; trigger his radar gun and read 69 mph. He was almost never off by 2 mph. Most experienced cops can do this.

LIDAR -- If the cop gets a good aim he knows the target, knows your speed, here is your ticket. As previously mentioned, the cop already knows you are speeding and has a pretty good idea of what your speed is. The gun just documents it for the courts.

ionbeam said:

As you and many, many others have discovered, radar reads bikes just fine. When a FJR faces the radar gun head on the distance at which the gun will lock your speed is roughly 25-50% that of a car. If the gun could lock a car at 1 mile it won't lock a FJR until 1/2 a mile or less. If the officer is correctly running the speed enforcement zone he will wait until you are within a speed locking distance before pulling the trigger on the gun. Radar guns offer power control, power = distance at which a vehicle speed can be read. Newer guns can read speeds farther out with less power so there is less scatter for detectors to pick up. Some newer guns emit such a short pulse that it can read your speed without your detector even alerting you.
Awareness, visibility along the roadways, risk assessment for the area you are traveling in, stupidity control and lastly luck will help almost as much as a good radar detector. You will almost never beat a properly run speed enforcement patrol, no matter what counter measures you use. There is one diabolically clever way to avoid tickets -- don't speed. It's just that I can't drive the speed limit :huh:

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Ionbeam....you ever thought maybe you can't ride 2 the speed limit....because it's kept artificially low....to generate cash for the local counties?..... :blink:

you can't ride 2 the speed limit because it's kept artificially low....to generate cash for the local counties?.....

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That is true in Merrimac, MA. Traffic tickets are a planned revenue source. This town has one of the highest tickets per state road mile in the whole state.

Highways have design specs for curve radius, grades, lane widths and sight lines. They spec and build a road for 80 - 85 mph and post it for 55 mph. The soul of the road beckons to you to fulfill its intent. While 55 mph may be dangerously high for a Yugo, it is low for most modern cars and pathetically low for performance oriented vehicles, both 2 and 4 wheels types. Hmmm, 55 mph may be a bit on the high side for most driver's skills....

ionbeam said:

They spec and build a road for 80 - 85 mph and post it for 55 mph.

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I oftentimes wondered who was the bonehead who posted speeds on lots of rural roads thinking to myself, "yeah, maybe that makes sense for an Amish family in a horse and buggy, but come on.... " :glare: