SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Hey, feel free to join us for breakfast on Saturday in Wheaton. You can give Shorai battery demos to all on hand. You'll be a rock star!
Info on Saturday breakfast.
Shorai Battery - not good in cold
- Thread starter Rider_FJR
- Start date
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Info on Saturday breakfast.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
ionbeam
2 FUN
I wrote to Shorai on 10/12/2011 and asked them several technical questions about their batteries including the cold weather performance. Here I sit on 11/11/11 and haven't heard back from them so I suspect I won't ever hear from them. I was hoping they would have something to relate to me about the cold weather operation of the battery.
wheatonFJR
...
Poor customer service (and idiocy as well) not to respond to inquiries about a product you are trying to market...
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Seems it will all come to light as we move into the northern hemisphere's winter. It will be interesting to see if they are still in business in the spring.
Rider_FJR
Well-known member
TomInPA
Well-known member
Well, I was leaving early in the morning for a ride to Mount Hamilton this past Thursday. The bike is stored in the garage. Outdoor temperatures dropped to 37 F over night, but the garage was much warmer. The bike barely started. Very slow to crank. Once started, it was showing in the high 13 amp range. It was cold, so I used the heated gear. I got fuel in five miles and the restart was scary slow. I didn't have problems the rest of the day, but I am not confident that I can take the bike and park it in a cold location and be able to start it.
Thinking about the trip to Death Valley this past March, temps were below freezing overnight in Lone Pine. From what I experienced yesterday, and am hearing elsewhere,I don't think that will work with the Shorai. :angry2:
Thinking about the trip to Death Valley this past March, temps were below freezing overnight in Lone Pine. From what I experienced yesterday, and am hearing elsewhere,I don't think that will work with the Shorai. :angry2:
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
I thought all you had to do was let it warm up a little by turning on the key. Did you try that before the hard starts??
wheatonFJR
...
Now this is anecdotal evidence I can hang my hat on...
..NO Shorai for me!
So NOW I agree with the thread title...Shorai Battery - not good in cold.
dcarver
Well-known member
I’d like to try and bring some perspective back to this thread (no really, seriously).
The Shorai website explicitly states: https://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx
“Down to about 20 degrees fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40f (5C), 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0f (-17C), leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. Any other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc...”
This appears to be marketing verbiage, but fairly accurate. 20º-30º seems to be the cold limit of this battree. We have proof of a 30º start, albeit labored, but it starts.
Shorai admits the colder it is the more you need to heat the battree up etc, for it to work better. It’s evident if you live and ride in a colder environment the Shorai is probably not for you. If you live in a more mild climate, say parts west and or south, this could be your new hot set up.
Everyone wants to get the battree to perform perfectly at its extreme range, a great test, but people are surprised at it’s lower performance at the extremes. Why?
That all being said the Shorai seems to deliver on its product. It’s an extremely light weight battree that works well in more mild climates. We seem to be looking for the absolute perfect battree in all conditions, act just like a lead acid battree, but be light weight, no such luck. Some compromise has to be made. Compare this to all our preferences and tests on the best tires, seats, windscreen, etc.
It is pricey compared to AGM battrees, but if you want to save weight (this is their true claim to fame), and your weather is more agreeable to the operating temperature range for the battree, sounds like you got yourself what you might want.
Lets not throw the baby (Shorai battree) out with the bathwater. This thread is correct, the Shorai doesn’t do well at very low temperatures. And as others have stated, possibly in the future this will be remedied, but for now, this is where the technology is at for this price range.
Just sayin’.
The Shorai website explicitly states: https://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx
“Down to about 20 degrees fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40f (5C), 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0f (-17C), leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. Any other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc...”
This appears to be marketing verbiage, but fairly accurate. 20º-30º seems to be the cold limit of this battree. We have proof of a 30º start, albeit labored, but it starts.
Shorai admits the colder it is the more you need to heat the battree up etc, for it to work better. It’s evident if you live and ride in a colder environment the Shorai is probably not for you. If you live in a more mild climate, say parts west and or south, this could be your new hot set up.
Everyone wants to get the battree to perform perfectly at its extreme range, a great test, but people are surprised at it’s lower performance at the extremes. Why?
That all being said the Shorai seems to deliver on its product. It’s an extremely light weight battree that works well in more mild climates. We seem to be looking for the absolute perfect battree in all conditions, act just like a lead acid battree, but be light weight, no such luck. Some compromise has to be made. Compare this to all our preferences and tests on the best tires, seats, windscreen, etc.
It is pricey compared to AGM battrees, but if you want to save weight (this is their true claim to fame), and your weather is more agreeable to the operating temperature range for the battree, sounds like you got yourself what you might want.
Lets not throw the baby (Shorai battree) out with the bathwater. This thread is correct, the Shorai doesn’t do well at very low temperatures. And as others have stated, possibly in the future this will be remedied, but for now, this is where the technology is at for this price range.
Just sayin’.
wheatonFJR
...
So...for warm temps only, this battery might be fine if yer really wanting to save that space and weight.
However, if yer in Kali or any other mountain state where the weather can vary and get cold...say in a desert out in BFE...or in the upper midwest where life sucks for 5-6 months out of the year...then yeah...this battery SUCKS.
However, if yer in Kali or any other mountain state where the weather can vary and get cold...say in a desert out in BFE...or in the upper midwest where life sucks for 5-6 months out of the year...then yeah...this battery SUCKS.
ionbeam
2 FUN
The industry standard for testing a battery so that it can establish a CCA -- Cold Cranking Amps rating specifies that the battery is tested at 0° F.
The SAE J537 CCA test mandates to cool a fully charged battery to -18°C (0°F) for 24 hours, and while at subfreezing temperature apply a high-current discharge that simulates the cranking of an engine. A 270 CCA battery would need to supply 270A for 30 seconds and stay above 7.2V (1.2V/cell) to pass. If it fails the test, the battery has a CCA rating of less than 270A. To find the CCA rating, the test must be repeated several times with different current settings to find the triggering point when the battery passes through 7.2V line. Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing.
The Shorai battery has a CCA rating of 210/270 CCA. Shorai is saying that at 0° F their batteries will deliver 210/270 CCA per SAE J537 testing. If their batteries fail to achieve this performance either Shorai is lying about their specification blowing smoke or there is something in the operation of the motorcycle that is not fully charging the batteries. Among the things I wrote to Shorai about was this very same contradiction between what they say about starting below 40° F and meeting SAE J537. In the elapsed 30 days Shorai has not responded to my email.
Shorai FAQ on CCA:
CCA ratings another way that lead-acid makers have tried to convey starting power. Unfortunately, their typical spec is based on a "half-nominal-voltage" delivery. That is, at their CCA spec, you can expect 7.2V delivered, at best; and 7.2V isn't useful, as you won't start a vehicle with it...
In any case, CCA ratings aren't about actually drawing that much current from a battery. The typical vehicle which uses a 200A CCA-rated battery, for example, will only draw 45A~80A from the battery. What the CCA rating really intends to convey is how much voltage will be delivered. Higher CCA rated batteries will deliver more voltage at the same actual cranking current. Our LFX are CCA rated to deliver 9V for a 5-second crank at the CCA rated current. (in fact, our average voltage delivered will be even higher during a 30-second crank. But our CCA ratings are intended to indicate not only a measure of voltage at true cranking currents, but also proper usage, which lead-acid do not) At actual cranking currents - which are always well below CCA, LFX deliver up to two volts more than an equivalent-CCA-rated lead acid battery. Current alone won't start anything. It is the current multiplied by voltage that does the work (watts). In reality, this means that you can multiply the LFX CCA rating by 1.5x to compare to a Lead Acid battery CCA. For example, our 270A CCA LFX18 series provides about the same cranking voltage as a 405A-CCA-rated lead acid battery (from a quality lead-acid maker; some CCA specs we've tested on the cheapest lead acid seemed to be plucked from thin air).
The empirical data being gathered indicates Shorai can't walk the walk or the way the FJR charges the battery doesn't let it fully charge.
One of you no-start people may want to leave the Shorai battery on a Shorai battery compatible charger over night and see how it starts the next morning. If it starts, or gets stronger with each attempt it indicates the battery is being under charged by the FJR's charging system. If the FJR still doesn't start, and the cranking gets no stronger then Shorai has some 'splaining to do.
The SAE J537 CCA test mandates to cool a fully charged battery to -18°C (0°F) for 24 hours, and while at subfreezing temperature apply a high-current discharge that simulates the cranking of an engine. A 270 CCA battery would need to supply 270A for 30 seconds and stay above 7.2V (1.2V/cell) to pass. If it fails the test, the battery has a CCA rating of less than 270A. To find the CCA rating, the test must be repeated several times with different current settings to find the triggering point when the battery passes through 7.2V line. Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing.
The Shorai battery has a CCA rating of 210/270 CCA. Shorai is saying that at 0° F their batteries will deliver 210/270 CCA per SAE J537 testing. If their batteries fail to achieve this performance either Shorai is lying about their specification blowing smoke or there is something in the operation of the motorcycle that is not fully charging the batteries. Among the things I wrote to Shorai about was this very same contradiction between what they say about starting below 40° F and meeting SAE J537. In the elapsed 30 days Shorai has not responded to my email.
Shorai FAQ on CCA:
CCA ratings another way that lead-acid makers have tried to convey starting power. Unfortunately, their typical spec is based on a "half-nominal-voltage" delivery. That is, at their CCA spec, you can expect 7.2V delivered, at best; and 7.2V isn't useful, as you won't start a vehicle with it...
In any case, CCA ratings aren't about actually drawing that much current from a battery. The typical vehicle which uses a 200A CCA-rated battery, for example, will only draw 45A~80A from the battery. What the CCA rating really intends to convey is how much voltage will be delivered. Higher CCA rated batteries will deliver more voltage at the same actual cranking current. Our LFX are CCA rated to deliver 9V for a 5-second crank at the CCA rated current. (in fact, our average voltage delivered will be even higher during a 30-second crank. But our CCA ratings are intended to indicate not only a measure of voltage at true cranking currents, but also proper usage, which lead-acid do not) At actual cranking currents - which are always well below CCA, LFX deliver up to two volts more than an equivalent-CCA-rated lead acid battery. Current alone won't start anything. It is the current multiplied by voltage that does the work (watts). In reality, this means that you can multiply the LFX CCA rating by 1.5x to compare to a Lead Acid battery CCA. For example, our 270A CCA LFX18 series provides about the same cranking voltage as a 405A-CCA-rated lead acid battery (from a quality lead-acid maker; some CCA specs we've tested on the cheapest lead acid seemed to be plucked from thin air).
The empirical data being gathered indicates Shorai can't walk the walk or the way the FJR charges the battery doesn't let it fully charge.
One of you no-start people may want to leave the Shorai battery on a Shorai battery compatible charger over night and see how it starts the next morning. If it starts, or gets stronger with each attempt it indicates the battery is being under charged by the FJR's charging system. If the FJR still doesn't start, and the cranking gets no stronger then Shorai has some 'splaining to do.
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TomInPA
Well-known member
I have a Gen 1 with the 18 amp (LFA18) Shorai. The battery shows a higher state of charge normally than a lead acid battery, with a stable resting voltage of about 13.4 VDC compared to 12.8-13.1 for most lead acid chemistry. During riding the charge system holds at 14.1 to 14.2 and the battery typically displays 13.8 VDC at shutdown. On the day my bike had the slow start, the volt meter indicated a full charge, it just apparently didn't flow power well (current).
I agree with the suspicion that Shorai is playing fast and loose with the SAE test for proving CCA. If this is the case, I would not want to be in their shoes if a class action suit gets filed to recover damages on behalf of a class of consumers that relied on the advertised CCA rating when making a purchase decision, then find the battery is not serviceable when the weather drops to 20 degrees F.
I'd really like them to come up with a solution.
I agree with the suspicion that Shorai is playing fast and loose with the SAE test for proving CCA. If this is the case, I would not want to be in their shoes if a class action suit gets filed to recover damages on behalf of a class of consumers that relied on the advertised CCA rating when making a purchase decision, then find the battery is not serviceable when the weather drops to 20 degrees F.
I'd really like them to come up with a solution.
I am working with fosho150 to purchase his problematic Shorai battery. I will take it to work and test it with everything we have and even put it in the freezer overnight. I will let you know what the results are in the next few weeks.
If there is a specfic set of tests you would like done, let me know. PM with requests.
If there is a specfic set of tests you would like done, let me know. PM with requests.
bramfrank
BramFrank
Motobatt
Zorlac
Well-known member
"test mandates to cool a fully charged battery to -18°C (0°F) for 24 hours"
"Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing."
I for the life of me, cannot understand why they'd avoid doing this test.
"Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing."
I for the life of me, cannot understand why they'd avoid doing this test.
Phugedaboudet
Well-known member
my stock lead acid battery doesn't like cold temps either. It's usually slow starting for a few weeks when night temps allow a cold soak into the 35 degree range. I got two seasons out of the last battery but this season the battery crapped out in the low 40's. I've been jumpstarting the bike with one of those portable battery things for the last two weeks and will be doing so until February or so when I can afford a replacement. Hopefully I don't lose one of the allen screws by then.
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Here are some interesting videos forum member foshow150 sent to me to post. The second one really shows how after a failed start attempt on a cold morning, on a subsequent and successful attempt the battery is much stronger.
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TomInPA
Well-known member
I was thinking that my slow start on the 10th was an anomaly, but those videos sure do resemble my experience, including having to reset the clock. The question is, whether it will ever fail to start on a subsequent try. Good video, and explains it well. Where is Shorai?
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