Analyses of recent accidents

Re: ZZkenoman's accident:

I am compelled to offer up a tip I developed after following Highlander on a group ride last year. When in the mountains especially, and in many other riding situations, I stay in the right hand cage tire track of my lane when cornering. This gives those errant cagers or other bikes about six feet of the oncoming lane without contact. On straightaways with no oncoming traffic, I'll position myself right next to the centerline, in order to take evasive action if a critter should cross into the road from either side.

Apparently, ZZ's accident was possibly caused by a blowout on the car, causing it to lose control, which seems to be likely by looking at the pictures. If that was the case, (and even if not, a similar situation can very well happen anytime in the future) and Larry had been in a position to give away the left six feet of his lane, it appears that it would have been "a close call" instead of a nearly head-on collision with debilitating injury, a lengthy recovery and lifelong complications. 45 years old is way too young to need a hip replacement.

The SUV driver may or may not have had any control over the outcome of the event. Either way, Larry lost and will pay with his health for a long time to come. If it was unavoidable, and it may very well have been, so be it. Our passion has inherent risk, but we need to manage it as well as we can. Accident analysis may minimize our risk in the future, so it's duly diligent of us to learn from each mishap.

"I didn't see him" is a standard excuse that appears to work, so we should deal with the reality that we don't get seen and act accordingly. How many bikes pull into the path of cars that the biker didn't see? I'd bet not many. We can do better, even if the cagers won't.

Ask yourself this- If that oncoming car crosses into my lane, where would I want to be to have the best chance to avoid it? I've decided that the right hand tire track has the best traction as well the best safety buffer. I'd rather take my chances of hitting an inanimate object on the shoulder than an oncoming vehicle. If somebody else can convince me otherwise, I'll change my style.

toecutter said:

Ask yourself this- If that oncoming car crosses into my lane, where would I want to be to have the best chance to avoid it? I've decided that the right hand tire track has the best traction as well the best safety buffer. I'd rather take my chances of hitting an inanimate object on the shoulder than an oncoming vehicle. If somebody else can convince me otherwise, I'll change my style.

Click to expand...

I think you are making a mistake on right hand corners, especially blind right hand corners. Taking the inside line can lead to a lot of problems, especially if the corner turns out to be tighter than you expected. It is a lot easier to go right in a right hand corner to avoid something in the road than to be on the inside and have to go wide. Most important, if you take the wide arc into a blind right corner you have better visibility of oncoming traffic or other road hazards and if there is a car coming from the other direction you have the option of moving to the inside after you see it.

I somewhat agree with "MCRIDER007"...

Always staying right isn't the answer IMHO, in fact I seem to favor being more towards the center as much as possible. (Except on Corners)

I looked for the article that sold me on this on the web but can't find it.

I try to ride where:

a] I'll be most visible, which means I tend to crowd my lane and make sure others know I'm there.

b] In a lane that gives me the most escape options as well as visbility.

c] As for corners, it really depends on where I'm riding, the enviromnet, the corner, if it's blind, etc.

Generally that puts me most often toards the center of the road (In the left side of my lane, in motorcycle lane (1) of 3 if you divde a lane up into 3 motorcycle lanes), and not off to the right tucked behind something. I have room in my own lane to 'escape right' before going off the road, and tend to think that more people see me over there.

Again, cornering is different...

Good points here and rules don't always cover every eventuality, but I have seen far too many times riders making left handers too close to the yellow line or their bodies actually hanging over the line during the turn. When making a left hander, I always try to stay in the right side of the lane and away from the yellow line.

Renegade said:

In the left side of my lane, in motorcycle lane (1) of 3 if you divde a lane up into 3 motorcycle lanes)...

Click to expand...

I stay away from lane 2 as much as possible, as it's usually where the slipperiness and tire puncturing hazards abide. I don't like to cross that lane while I'm leaned over on the street. Track is a whole 'nother story. YMMV. Cage tires tend to clean a couple of paths on the road and that's where I tread most often.
The right tire path dictates that I go slower around corners (not necessarily a bad thing), especially left handers, as I have much less room to run wide before running out of pavement, but I still go fast enough to have fun while giving lane crossers as much room as possible. Most of my cornering is on blind corners and, like I said, I'd rather take my chances with something parked than one heading at me. If I get stopped, the stationary object can't hurt me. The moving one can't be trusted to stop, and I don't want to stop with something coming at me anyway. "Ride the bike, ride the bike, ride the bike".

Bike Effects said:

When making a left hander, I always try to stay in the right side of the lane and away from the yellow line.

Click to expand...

I agree and I think that is what Toecutter is proposing. I think there is a much greater chance of having opposing traffic crossing the centerline in a left hand corner (because they are swinging wide in a right hand corner) but there are also other benefits of taking the outside arc in a left hand corner -- less lean angle is required and you can see further through the corner. It took me a long time to be comforable riding close to the shoulder on a left hand corner but eventually I got to the point where I feel more comforable on a left hand corner than a right because I know less lean angle is going to be required for any given speed.

Ever since my near head-on with a wide swinging SUV, I've been hugging the right on blind lefts. Only needed to experience that once to learn the lesson.

toecutter said:

I am compelled to offer up a tip I developed after following Highlander on a group ride last year. When in the mountains especially, and in many other riding situations, I stay in the right hand cage tire track of my lane when cornering. This gives those errant cagers or other bikes about six feet of the oncoming lane without contact.

Click to expand...

Excellent choice my friend... stay right... stay alive !! :clapping:

HIGHLANDER said:

toecutter said:

I am compelled to offer up a tip I developed after following Highlander on a group ride last year. When in the mountains especially, and in many other riding situations, I stay in the right hand cage tire track of my lane when cornering. This gives those errant cagers or other bikes about six feet of the oncoming lane without contact.

Click to expand...

Excellent choice my friend... stay right... stay alive !! :clapping:

Click to expand...

Guess I'm in the minority here. I try to start wide in my lane (rt. tire track for left turns, left tire track for right turns), cross the center of the lane to the tire track at the inside of the corner and cross the center of the lane again to finish wide in the same tire track I used when I started the curve. Note I'm always within my own lane and crossing the center line or the outside line (if there is one) is verboten. This maneuver maximizes how much of the corner I can see (including errant cages), plus I can see the center of the lane I will be crossing to check for gravel, oil, tar snakes, Harley parts, etc.

My $.02, flail at will,

RsvlFeej

Having been on the fateful ride with Larry. I can tell you he is a conservative rider and was not close to the yellow in this blind right hander. Of course, no witnesses saw it so I cannot say this for certain. I likened it to running around a corner in your house and someone jumping out and saying," Booo." Nothing any rider could have done. This is what I told his wife. All and all, it could have been much worse. Somehow, bike and cagers must be more careful.

You could die on the crapper tomorrow morning. Checking out on a bike doing what you love is not a bad way to go. If you wanna check out on the ol' John J, stay there.

Every man dies, not every man really lives-Quote from some movie, name it, you win a free trip to the crapper without incident

Barabus said:

Somehow, bike and cagers must be more careful.

Click to expand...

Very true but I wish we could do something to either educate or control the deer population that is probably the most dangerous road hazard that I face where I ride. What happened to Larry is tragic but it would be a mistake to base one's riding style solely because of the remote possibility that an oncoming vehicle might cross the centerline. This type of accident is extreme but rare, there are other road hazards that are the cause of most accidents and injuries.

Wow all that information and very good answers for different riding styles. Toe your q? brought out some good thinking and answers. I like the way rsvlfeej rides it is kind of ride like you race, inside to out than outside to in on the corners.

There is only one problem I do not know of anyone that can predict the future and what is going to happen on any given ride. EAch rider learns a technique that suits him or her and that is how they ride. Which one id best you chose.

Any riders that have taken motorcycle riding classes give us your thoughts.

weekend rider

Toe is onto something folks - go back and read his first post carefully.

If you've taken MSF or Canada Safety Council riding courses, you will have had it drummed into you that you must NOT get into the (bad) habit of apexing corners in street riding (described above as starting from the left lane position for a right-hander, crossing the center lane position (grease strip), to an extreme right-side lane position at the apex, then finishing the turn back at the extreme left (after crossing the grease strip a second time!) Clearly (as noted above) this breaks no traffic laws as you never leave your own lane, but it does involve thumbing your nose at the laws of physics (and the Traction Goddess?!) when you take this onto the street - Word.

Apexing is absolutely valid theory for track days and without question is the fastest way to get around any corner with the mimimum of lean angle. But on the street we don't have corner marshals throwing absorbant on oil and coolant spills, sweeping up broken bike parts etc. We don't always have decent visibility (seeing or being seen) - which in and of itself will always be a major influencer in my choice of attack position for any given corner on any given road.

Speaking for those of us who didn't crash on the monster day ride at WFO-5, most of us positioned our bikes for maximum separation from possible approaching vehicles on the blind corners - and bless the organizers, there were a ton of them! And tight, uphill, blind corkscrews too!

I've read about some of the recent FJR crashes involving spilled fuels, liquids, painted/plastic road markings etc. I treat all of those as my enemy and try to cross them as infrequently as possible, and with my lean angle as upright as possible, when I have no choice. If you assume the center lane position (grease strip) will be the major harbor for all of those traction limiting products, you will treat it with a lot of respect too, and find yourself not very often apexing a corner on the street...

Not trying to preach or convert anyone else to "my" riding style. I picked up all of this theory as practical advice from a bunch of old guys all of whom were graduates from the school of hard knocks. Been applying their theories myself for the past 40 years or so and a lot of miles (and taught a few hundred students myself as a CSC instructor for 15 years). It saved my life on a simple looking corner on a sleepy Sunday morning in Minnesota about 5 years ago. That van didn't miss me by a foot and I had both wheels onto the paved shoulder on my side of the road when he tried his damnedest to kill me (probably thanks to his cellphone, or a cup of Starbucks spilled into his lap).

Try it - you may like it!

As my pal dcarver likes to say it isn't how far you ride in a day, it's how far you ride in a lifetime. Be safe out there my brothers and sisters!

There are no absolutes other than knowing your limits. :good:

FastJoyRide said:

Toe is onto something folks - go back and read his first post carefully.
If you've taken MSF or Canada Safety Council riding courses, you will have had it drummed into you that you must NOT get into the (bad) habit of apexing corners in street riding (described above as starting from the left lane position for a right-hander, crossing the center lane position (grease strip), to an extreme right-side lane position at the apex, then finishing the turn back at the extreme left (after crossing the grease strip a second time!) Clearly (as noted above) this breaks no traffic laws as you never leave your own lane, but it does involve thumbing your nose at the laws of physics (and the Traction Goddess?!) when you take this onto the street - Word.

Apexing is absolutely valid theory for track days and without question is the fastest way to get around any corner with the mimimum of lean angle. But on the street we don't have corner marshals throwing absorbant on oil and coolant spills, sweeping up broken bike parts etc. We don't always have decent visibility (seeing or being seen) - which in and of itself will always be a major influencer in my choice of attack position for any given corner on any given road.

Speaking for those of us who didn't crash on the monster day ride at WFO-5, most of us positioned our bikes for maximum separation from possible approaching vehicles on the blind corners - and bless the organizers, there were a ton of them! And tight, uphill, blind corkscrews too!

I've read about some of the recent FJR crashes involving spilled fuels, liquids, painted/plastic road markings etc. I treat all of those as my enemy and try to cross them as infrequently as possible, and with my lean angle as upright as possible, when I have no choice. If you assume the center lane position (grease strip) will be the major harbor for all of those traction limiting products, you will treat it with a lot of respect too, and find yourself not very often apexing a corner on the street...

Not trying to preach or convert anyone else to "my" riding style. I picked up all of this theory as practical advice from a bunch of old guys all of whom were graduates from the school of hard knocks. Been applying their theories myself for the past 40 years or so and a lot of miles (and taught a few hundred students myself as a CSC instructor for 15 years). It saved my life on a simple looking corner on a sleepy Sunday morning in Minnesota about 5 years ago. That van didn't miss me by a foot and I had both wheels onto the paved shoulder on my side of the road when he tried his damnedest to kill me (probably thanks to his cellphone, or a cup of Starbucks spilled into his lap).

Try it - you may like it!

As my pal dcarver likes to say it isn't how far you ride in a day, it's how far you ride in a lifetime. Be safe out there my brothers and sisters!

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree 100%.

We are all talking about different sight lines here. wide open sweepers I can agree on the late apex and having a better sight line, but in the tight, tight twisty stuff that's common in the Sierras and other rmountain passes, a wide apex maybe gain you a foot or two sight line, not worth it IMHO, stay tight right, you've room to move left if there's debris in the road, and if the corner decreases.......lean more, the FJR will lean a lot more when the feelers touch down, quite a bit more !

Left hander.... .stay right,.......... .right hander..... .stay right......Stay Right, Stay Alive !

My first (and only, really) post to the forum was inspired by the maniac in a 1972 Chevy pickup that drove through me and my '04 FJR. Since then, I've taken a keen interest in self-preservation. Here's my $0.02 worth.

"Drive like everybody else on the road is out to get you." I am constantly asking myself questions like "what do I do if that driver swerves into my lane/runs his red light/stops suddenly/etc" or "where is the deer in those trees". I leave more room between myself and the vehicle in front of me than I could ever need (and I've used it all up more than once). I never ride beside another vehicle (especially if I can't see the driver's head). I avoid roads with more than 2 lanes of traffic (spin-off benefit - quiet roads are ALWAYS more interesting than freeways). I think we can all agree that we cannot MAKE somebody else do something (even with a headlight modulator, "back off" tail-lights, reflectors all over the bike and your clothing, and loud pipes, you can still be run over by ***** that didn't see you); I therefore assume full responsibility for my safety at all times.

"Take a riding course, even if you don't think you need to." At the very least, the instructor can point out some of the bad habits you've developed. More likely, you'll learn more than you ever dreamed possible. If, as I stated above, everybody else is out to get you, you'll have to be a hell of a rider to avoid them all. Put another way, why settle for being a good rider when you can be great?

"Ride like you mean it." If I find myself losing focus I park the bike, take a nap/go for a run/eat, and I don't get back on until I'm alert again. If the scenery is breathtaking, stop the bike and take a picture of it. If that blonde in the miniskirt is worth a second look, hit the curb and take a loooong look. I've read every book I can find on motorcycle safety/handling/skills, and I practice the skills I've learned until they become instinct. Every ride includes skill work. The questions I talked about in the paragraph above are sometimes answered physically; if the answer is "take evasive action", then I take evasive action. I then evaluate the outcome; would the bike and I have survived if the danger was real? Did I have the skill required? How close did I get to the edge of the bike's performance envelope? Was my choice the best one (would "emergency stop" have worked better than "take evasive action").

"Use your eyes." Look where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid. Position yourself where you can maximize your sight line (but always leave yourself room to manouver). This means you need to move around on the road, and not just on curves. Every book I've read, and every course I've taken talks about this, and there are pages of reasons for why they recommend it.

An unanticipated benefit from all this is that not only am I a better rider today than I was a year ago, I also have a lot more fun on the bike (and it has always been fun).

Chris

I took an MSF course in Mass. in 1980 and they drummed in the lesson: stay in one of the two tire tracks because of sight lines, traction issues, debris in the middle, etc.

Last year I decided to do another course (intermediate) here in Oregon as a refresher. MSF doesn't, to my knowledge, run courses here. Team Oregon does. This issue came up because they were teaching us not to worry about the middle of the lane, as modern tires and motorcycles can handle the (usually) minor stuff you find there.

In turns there was clear instruction to take the outside line in a turn UNTIL YOU CAN SEE THE EXIT OF THE TURN, as the sightline (and oncoming cars, obstacles, etc.) is clear, you apex the turn if safe, and exit the turn with smooth throttle, which generally causes a wider line exiting the turn. And keep your head up!

I find this the safest and most natural way I have ever ridden a bike. I was a very skeptical student, but I'm sold. The key is to wait until you see the full exit, which can mean waiting, waiting, waiting..... but decreasing radius turns don't bite my butt, either.

Just adding my experience.