Analyses of recent accidents

[MCRIDER007]

In turns there was clear instruction to take the outside line in a turn UNTIL YOU CAN SEE THE EXIT OF THE TURN, as the sightline (and oncoming cars, obstacles, etc.) is clear, you apex the turn if safe, and exit the turn with smooth throttle, which generally causes a wider line exiting the turn. And keep your head up!
I find this the safest and most natural way I have ever ridden a bike. I was a very skeptical student, but I'm sold. The key is to wait until you see the full exit, which can mean waiting, waiting, waiting..... but decreasing radius turns don't bite my butt, either.

+1. I haven't taken that course but what you describe is exactly what I tell new riders (and some that are not so new) to do. Many are skepical but once they try it (and get comfortable taking an outside line on the left hand turns) they never go back to their old way of riding.

 

[Toecutter]

...they were teaching us not to worry about the middle of the lane, as modern tires and motorcycles can handle the (usually) minor stuff you find there.

Who was it that rolled trembling into Dardanelle's to check his chonies after the front of his FJR sidestepped about 12 inches from hitting some pebbles in the roadway in a 50mph sweeper on upper Sonora Pass during the WFO Big Twisty ride in the pack I was leading at the time? He might disagree about how well a "modern motorcycle" can handle "the minor stuff". Three or four bikes went by that same spot at a pretty good clip w/o incident before he had that excitement. Coulda been tragic though. Skooter probably has a PTSD flashback at the mere mention of Sonora Pass. I salivate and spring a bit of a chub thinking about that road, but I digress....

23,000 flat-free & crashless (touch wood) miles so far by keeping the bike's tires where the cars keep theirs. A flat in the Highlander's new Michelins in the first 500 miles. Purely coincidence? I think not. It's probably just because the bike's tires are skinnier. :derisive:

Honda has a "modern motorcycle" with air bags, so any of ya think a 'Wing will weather a head-on well enough to not worry about the line-crossers? If so, go buy one and ride like Rossi on the street. I'm deathly allergic to bees and high speed collisions so I'll wear my gear, keep my visor closed and stay as far from the centerline as possible when I feel it's safer.

I started this thing to try and avoid a future fatality like Larry (zzkenoman) could have very well been. As evidenced in the T-shirt fundraiser pics, there are riders with their body parts nearly hanging over the double yellow. My mission here is to save this forum from future grief. How'd any of you like to be the ride participant who gets to fish a cell phone from a lifeless rider's body and make "the call"? No thanks. YMMV

In the pics of Larry's accident scene it appears that the SUV got things corrected before getting halfway over into the oncoming lane. If Larry had been in the right tire track, it's highly likely that there would have been no contact, no totalled bike, and no injuries. If Larry was crowding the double yellow with body parts, as many riders do while textbook "apexing" a left-hander (I've seen it plenty), he would no longer be with us.

Larry may very well weigh in and declare that he was in the right track, the car came all the way over, and it will be obvious that his accident was totally unavoidable. It happens. However, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of line crossers don't make it all the way to the shoulder before realizing their mistake and getting back where they belong so, consequently, the majority of head-on collisions while on a bike are avoidable.

Remember the video about the guy hitting the deer on the sportbike? He wouldn't have ridden through the middle of a Volvo without even wobbling. That's why I'll take my chances against flesh and bone rather than oncoming plastic & steel. It's risk management.

Another potentially deadly practice I see way too much is riders who try to ride staggered while in a group in curvy areas. They group up and stagger every straight they see, then are tardy to go single file and stretch out at the first sign of a curve. IMO, all pack leaders should employ a hand signal for changing to single file (with appropriate following distances) and back based on the layout of the road. Suggestions?

Like I said before, we can't eliminate the risk. If a car blows a tire and takes you out, I'd say your number was up. Larry got real lucky to get out alive. But by looking at the pics, I see a possibility to better manage the risk in that situation, and am compelled to preach the safety. That's how I roll. :cigar:

 

[wheatonFJR]

I appreciate Toe's comments...

I admit that I am on the left half typically apexing so I will give this right half thing a try next time I am out riding...which will be awhile here in the snowy midwest.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

I've been lucky and only got scared a few times with vehicles crossing the double yellow around blind turns. Heck, I'll admit it, there have been a few turns in my years that I absolutely blew and if there was a bike coming, I would have killed someone. These scary moments always seem worse when you get the chance to reflect on what could have happened.

It is so easy for us to die. I am all for living for the passion, I do it. I can also enjoy our awesome roads with the new kinds of challenges that TC shares with us.

For those riders that have not tried riding "right", give it a try. It's actually a lot of fun to be able to stay right while still having a spirited ride. Spirited means different things to different people, but I would hope that with all the lessons spoken of in this thread that riders that find apexing on blind corners their passion should find a new challenge in riding.

I know that riding on the right also gives me more room to wave like a parade princess! (I had to say that since I notice Barubus reading this thread...I threw that in just for you!)

 

[Barabus]

Toe and Orange make some points that resonant with me. For those who are not willing to ride right, I offer the following- try to ride at 75%-80% of max. Leave the reserve for a swerve around an SUV. Next time I am out I am going to practice this just like I practice emergency braking or serving on hwy at high speed. Seems to me that we should make this a standard drill, just like all the rest. IF I can swerve around a hypo SUV half in my lane around a blind right then I will know I am at 75%.

Aslo, I have been waving (or at least nodding) after getting dog piled. But Orange, keep that wave low so all the other bikers will know "you are kool". lol.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Toe and Orange make some points that resonant with me. For those who are not willing to ride right, I offer the following- try to ride at 75%-80% of max. Leave the reserve for a swerve around an SUV. Next time I am out I am going to practice this just like I practice emergency braking or serving on hwy at high speed. Seems to me that we should make this a standard drill, just like all the rest. IF I can swerve around a hypo SUV half in my lane around a blind right then I will know I am at 75%.
Aslo, I have been waving (or at least nodding) after getting dog piled. But Orange, keep that wave low so all the other bikers will know "you are kool". lol.

Did you get dog piled? Are you calling me a dog?

LOL

The 75% rule is a good one and one that I try to follow.

Oh...the wave is low B)

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

In turns there was clear instruction to take the outside line in a turn UNTIL YOU CAN SEE THE EXIT OF THE TURN, as the sightline (and oncoming cars, obstacles, etc.) is clear, you apex the turn if safe, and exit the turn with smooth throttle, which generally causes a wider line exiting the turn. And keep your head up!

I find this the safest and most natural way I have ever ridden a bike. I was a very skeptical student, but I'm sold. The key is to wait until you see the full exit, which can mean waiting, waiting, waiting..... but decreasing radius turns don't bite my butt, either.

+1. I haven't taken that course but what you describe is exactly what I tell new riders (and some that are not so new) to do. Many are skepical but once they try it (and get comfortable taking an outside line on the left hand turns) they never go back to their old way of riding.

MC, this is unconfirmed, but I seem to remember the instructors saying Team Oregon (non-profit by the way; and a passing of the course allows licensure in Oregon) that they were going to offer instruction in Washington State in 2007........you might want to look for the advanced course.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

In turns there was clear instruction to take the outside line in a turn UNTIL YOU CAN SEE THE EXIT OF THE TURN, as the sightline (and oncoming cars, obstacles, etc.) is clear, you apex the turn if safe, and exit the turn with smooth throttle, which generally causes a wider line exiting the turn. And keep your head up!

I find this the safest and most natural way I have ever ridden a bike. I was a very skeptical student, but I'm sold. The key is to wait until you see the full exit, which can mean waiting, waiting, waiting..... but decreasing radius turns don't bite my butt, either.

+1. I haven't taken that course but what you describe is exactly what I tell new riders (and some that are not so new) to do. Many are skepical but once they try it (and get comfortable taking an outside line on the left hand turns) they never go back to their old way of riding.

MC, this is unconfirmed, but I seem to remember the instructors saying Team Oregon (non-profit by the way; and a passing of the course allows licensure in Oregon) that they were going to offer instruction in Washington State in 2007........you might want to look for the advanced course.

I read this method and then followed a rider that had just attended streetmasters and saw it in practice and practiced it myself. I like it. On right turns, this can leave you "out there" too long, which is why this method may be best for some reasons, but certainly there are times that this isn't too swift and I found myself getting "right" a lot sooner than they may teach. I just don't like it out there on many turns.

Can we get a Streetmasters grad to tell us how they teach the right hand turn on twisty blind turns?

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snipps>Can we get a Streetmasters grad to tell us how they teach the right hand turn on twisty blind turns?

Not nec. "Streetmasters"; but, this may suffice?:When approaching a curve: slow from your approach speed (whatever speed you happen to be going) to a suitable entry speed (your judgement); keep slowing until you see the exit; initiate lean (turn-in) by pressing on the handle-bar in the direction you want to go (counter-steer); roll-on the throttle (continuing to look to toward the exit).

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

<snipps>Can we get a Streetmasters grad to tell us how they teach the right hand turn on twisty blind turns?

Not nec. "Streetmasters"; but, this may suffice?:When approaching a curve: slow from your approach speed (whatever speed you happen to be going) to a suitable entry speed (your judgement); keep slowing until you see the exit; initiate lean (turn-in) by pressing on the handle-bar in the direction you want to go (counter-steer); roll-on the throttle (continuing to look to toward the exit).

Nope. That doesn't address lane position.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Nope. That doesn't address lane position.

I guess? You could divide your lane in half and only use part of the lane available to you -- if it makes you feel better? Otherwise, it's: outside-inside-outside.

 

[weekend rider]

Awesome discussion, a whole lot of information being thrown out there that has a lot of value for all

riders out there. One thing for sure there always be differencses of opinion on what, where, when and how, and what should-of, could-of, done differently. Which brings us to " hindsight " is the best sight.

From riding GNCC's A pro rider said it best, (Ty Davis ) ride your ride and ride the terrain or else you will end up with big problems

One thing that has not been mentioned is each person reacts differently to a given situation, the human element factor. If we can control that than we all wold be a cloned bike rider and never an accident

JUst a diferent look at the same thing Week end rider

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Nope. That doesn't address lane position.

I guess? You could divide your lane in half and only use part of the lane available to you -- if it makes you feel better? Otherwise, it's: outside-inside-outside.

This discussion has been revolving around the premise that the outside-inside-outside positioning has two faults, especially in blind turns

1) I brings you perilously close to oncoming traffic

2) It swings you across the center of lane that is more likely to have debris, especially slick fluids

Outside-Inside-Outside is clearly the best route on a track, but not always on the road. (in the opinion of many here)

 

[odot]

This discussion has lasted me three dumps....which is....three inside-outside experiences....which you don't want to smell...believe you me.

 

[exskibum]

This discussion has lasted me three dumps....which is....three inside-outside experiences....which you don't want to smell...believe you me.

Laptop, odot??

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

This discussion has lasted me three dumps....which is....three inside-outside experiences....which you don't want to smell...believe you me.

Kinda like the Stars' game in Edmonton tonight

...and my team's season so far

 

[Toecutter]

This discussion has lasted me three dumps....which you don't want to smell...believe you me.

At least you are in touch with your humility, unlike some others...

 

[wheatonFJR]

This discussion has been revolving around the premise that the outside-inside-outside positioning has two faults, especially in blind turns
1) I brings you perilously close to oncoming traffic

2) It swings you across the center of lane that is more likely to have debris, especially slick fluids

Outside-Inside-Outside is clearly the best route on a track, but not always on the road. (in the opinion of many here)

Toe, Do you ride like this on all corners all the time?

or

just on blind corners and other corners when there is traffic?

Also, can I see a poll of how many and who ride this way? Just curious which other members ride this way.

 

[Toecutter]

Toe, Do you ride like this on all corners all the time?or

just on blind corners and other corners when there is traffic?

I don't adhere to always one way, all the time, but mostly the latter (blind corners and other corners when there is traffic). As I said previously, wide open road with no traffic, I get as close to the centerline as is safely possible, to give me more roadway to react to crossing vehicles or critters. I stay away from crossing the center of the lane when leaned over, due to the possibility of debris.
On straights, I tend to follow traffic in the right tire path if there's oncoming traffic, unless I'm fixing to pass. No oncoming traffic, back to the left tire track. I move around a lot in the lane, based on where I feel safest. YMMV

Also, can I see a poll of how many and who ride this way? Just curious which other members ride this way.

Anybody else is welcome to start the poll, I won't be doing it as I don't intend to base my riding style on mob rule. I watched the best of the best and emulated accordingly.
As for which others ride like this: The man, the myth, the legend, Highlander does and that's all the confirmation I need. Ever followed him? He could charge for the privelege. On group rides, the smarter riders clamor to get behind him like desperate single girls positioning for the boquet toss at a wedding reception.

I'd sure like to know where (in the lane) ZZ was when the car struck him. It looked like he had to be somewhere in the left half or at least the center.

IMO, it requires more concentration, technique and skill to stay in an 18" wide space around a corner than to straighten it out. Sure it's not the fastest way to go, but I'm enjoying myself, safely and at lower speeds, and I'm not exactly the slowest bike on the mountain. Sometimes I can see a clear line through a set of corners and I'll blast it, double yellows and tire life be damned, but those moments are few, far between and felonious. h34r:

*DISCLAIMER- Don't come blaming at me if something goes wrong. There are issues, such as in tight right-handers, corner-cutting long vehicles tend to throw debris into the right tire track. For me, that still gives me ample room to get loose (or even lowside) without my body crossing the centerline. Always ride at your own risk, pace, and comfort level.

 

[madmike2]

The 75% rule is a good one and one that I try to follow.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, maybe with JoyfulGirl as pillion. :dribble:

In turns there was clear instruction to take the outside line in a turn UNTIL YOU CAN SEE THE EXIT OF THE TURN, as the sightline (and oncoming cars, obstacles, etc.) is clear, you apex the turn if safe, and exit the turn with smooth throttle, which generally causes a wider line exiting the turn. And keep your head up!

I find this the safest and most natural way I have ever ridden a bike. I was a very skeptical student, but I'm sold. The key is to wait until you see the full exit, which can mean waiting, waiting, waiting..... but decreasing radius turns don't bite my butt, either.

+1. I haven't taken that course but what you describe is exactly what I tell new riders (and some that are not so new) to do. Many are skepical but once they try it (and get comfortable taking an outside line on the left hand turns) they never go back to their old way of riding.

MC, this is unconfirmed, but I seem to remember the instructors saying Team Oregon (non-profit by the way; and a passing of the course allows licensure in Oregon) that they were going to offer instruction in Washington State in 2007........you might want to look for the advanced course.

I read this method and then followed a rider that had just attended streetmasters and saw it in practice and practiced it myself. I like it. On right turns, this can leave you "out there" too long, which is why this method may be best for some reasons, but certainly there are times that this isn't too swift and I found myself getting "right" a lot sooner than they may teach. I just don't like it out there on many turns.

Can we get a Streetmasters grad to tell us how they teach the right hand turn on twisty blind turns?

_______________________________________________________________________________________

A Blind Right Hand Turn, as I understand it: Approaching the corner, stay near the centerline, slow and brake for the corner, the one should release the brake while slowly rolling on the throttle to settle the suspension as one begins to follow the arc of the road (still on the centerline but turning your head looking through the corner, looking for the imaginary exit.) . Once the operator sees the exit he/she can turn into the corner (The reason its called delayed entry/late apex) and accelerate through the corner using the throttle to "stand" the bike up while looking toward the next corner to select the proper lane position for THAT corner.

This is the same technique described by David Hough in his books "Proficient Motorcycling" and "More Proficient Motorcycling".

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I'm trying to apply it to all my riding, it is working for me. The premise being that if you wait "wide" before turning in you will be able to see problems (oil in the middle, dirt or sand in the apex, an errant vehicle cutting your lane, fauna of any kind in your roadway) before you commit to the turn. The foundation of the principle is that you are NOT overcooking the corner but have appropriately braked and slowed.

It worked well enough for me to avoid 3 separate instances on a ride Eastbound over Hwy 4 last year.

1.) A pickup running wide on a left hander (for me). I saw him and was able to delay my turn in and stay wide right until he had passed.

2.) A blind right hand turn where I stayed wide left and saw 3 motorcycles coming at me cutting the apex. I had time to stop and shake my finger at them. 1 passed INSIDE of me and 2 on my left. Had I been an SUV they would have been life-flighted out if they survived.

3.) Near the top, I came around a blind right-hand turn to see an SUV stopped in the middle of the road (1 1/2 lanes wide) talking with 3 hikers.

First, I was riding at a brisk but controlled and reasonable speed. Second, I was using the ride to apply the "stay wide until you see the exit, then initiate your turn in and 'roll on' the throttle through the turn then accelerate out of the exit while setting up for the next corner.

Do I still get a little, er, uhm, "Mad"? :blink: :dribble: Yup, I do! (Hwy 36; The Lost Coast; Avenue of the Giants; Hwy 1 South from Leggett to Point Arena :yahoo: ) Even then I try to apply the "stay wide until you see the exit", just in an accelerated, time compression mode. If you follow me you will notice that approaching left hand turns I will be out near the right "fog line", when approaching right hand turns I will be out near the center line, always keeping my head turned towards the imaginary exit (The bike goes where you point your nose) while scanning my lane placement with my peripheral vision and watching the road ahead for possible "issues" and the true exit. I can never ride fast enough to follow Highlander for any length of time in order to appropriate his riding style.

As they teach at Streetmasters, it is a "learned discipline". I'm still learning. Evidently riding motorcycles is a constant learning experience.

The best farkle you will ever buy for your bike is to take the Streetmasters or any other course that teaches controlled cornering (not necessarily track speed/road racing) and smooth brake/throttle transitioning. Being the best YOU can be will dramatically change your bike.