Analyses of recent accidents

[Rickster]

Let me start with stating that I do believe in studying what-went-wrong stuff.

From the pics -- ZZ practiced ATGATT -- a smart man, but there's just not much detail that we can learn from on this one. Did the car blow-out? was cage driver not paying attn? too many questions here.

We don't have any details from what I see -- so we are all generalizing on what is safer.

The best advice i ever received was:

• If you're going to ride like a super-hero -- it better be wonder woman (her aircraft was invisible!) -- don't ever believe that anyone can see you. I have had people appear to look me straight in the eye -- and then pull out infront of me.

• Practice skills before you need them. Practice in a controlled environment -- know your limits. You will react in an emergency to what your instincts edict -- so good practice leads to good instincts.

• ATGATT.

 

[Toecutter]

We don't have any details from what I see -- so we are all generalizing on what is safer.

And I don't think any of us are jumping to any conclusions regarding Larry's incident. It's all conjecture and speculation at this point, not unlike the evening news.
Until the final analysis is in, which may not be for quite some time, given the myriad dynamics of the issues at hand (possible litigation, Larry's condition, etc...), generalizing on what may be safer is all we've got for now.

Since many of us ride almost daily, I think it's best we start the process ASAP. I'd hate to see somebody else get crunched while I was waiting around for all the facts to be in before acting.

The concept I'm laying out here is nothing new to me, nor is my preaching it on this forum. There's no good reason in my mind for anybody to get hit by an oncoming car while they are left of center in their lane.

Larry's incident was an opportunity for me to hop up on my soapbox. Premature or not, if one other person says "Wow, I had a close call today. I was going around a blind corner in the right tire track and some cage came across and just missed me. If I would have been on the left side, I'd be a ghost", then I've saved a life. To me, that's worth all the trouble and then some.

The best advice i ever received was:

• If you're going to ride like a super-hero -- it better be wonder woman (her aircraft was invisible!) -- don't ever believe that anyone can see you. I have had people appear to look me straight in the eye -- and then pull out infront of me.

• Practice skills before you need them. Practice in a controlled environment -- know your limits. You will react in an emergency to what your instincts edict -- so good practice leads to good instincts.

• ATGATT.

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

Nope. That doesn't address lane position.

I guess? You could divide your lane in half and only use part of the lane available to you -- if it makes you feel better? Otherwise, it's: outside-inside-outside.

This discussion has been revolving around the premise that the outside-inside-outside positioning has two faults, especially in blind turns

1) I brings you perilously close to oncoming traffic

2) It swings you across the center of lane that is more likely to have debris, especially slick fluids

Outside-Inside-Outside is clearly the best route on a track, but not always on the road. (in the opinion of many here)

Two valid points I think I can address.

1) The method calls for a rider to move inside towards the apex only if safe and clear, which is why you wait until you can see through the turn. If there is an unsafe condition you merely stay om the outside track.

2) It takes a split second to go through the middle of the lane. If your head is up you will see many (not all, admittedly) possible hazards for that small stretch of middle lane used. As I ( I won't speak for others) move from the outside line to the apex, the bike is not healed over at a hard angle. I also try hard not to apex at the center line, but inside. in my lane, and only if the area is clear (because I waited to commit until I can see the exit).

Also, it may also be there is so much rain in the Pacific Northwest, the roads aren't as dirty. Just a thought.

I am not advocating this for everybody. I am not trying to convince anybody. Merely stating it is a valid way for me to have relatively safe fun on the street with this bike.

 

[Toecutter]

The concept I'm laying out here is nothing new to me, nor is my preaching it on this forum. There's no good reason in my mind for anybody to get hit by an oncoming car while they are left of center in their lane.

Another potentially deadly practice I see way too much is riders who try to ride staggered while in a group in curvy areas. They group up and stagger every straight they see, then are tardy to go single file and stretch out at the first sign of a curve.

Nice that this image has recently surfaced. I'm not sure if the rider following is "apexing" or trying to ride staggered through the turn, but I'm pretty sure that there is a mountain blocking the view of at least part of the road ahead, part that could be harboring an oncoming vehicle about to run wide.
Notice also the dark stripes in the middle of the lanes. Those ares are where the traction is not as good as where the tires have been running, and also tend to harbor tire-hostile objects. This picture was taken back in April, after near-record rainfall in California. The pavement was completely washed out in many places. Imagine what the middle of the lanes looked like in the fall, after a long dry spell (no washing for months).

IMO, all pack leaders should employ a hand signal for changing to single file (with appropriate following distances) and back based on the layout of the road. Suggestions?

How 'bout this one? The lead rider, to signal the switch to single file, uses the left arm and does a repetitive "first down" type movement. This would be covered in the pre-ride briefing. The switch back to stagger formation would probably be dictated by the road conditions ( a long straightaway), or by a similar motion to the single file signal, except with the forearm moving in a side-to-side fashion.
While single file, ride however you want, just maintain at least a two-second space behind the bike ahead. Switching from stagger formation to single file also means increasing the gap space, as the bike you're falling in behind is only one second ahead of you. Perhaps the group rides need to be modified so, even in staggered position, you maintain a minimum two second gap from the bike ahead, which would be a minimum four second gap from the bike that is directly in line with yours, in whatever half of the lane you're running in.

Clear as mud?

Ya think the guy in the picture above is two seconds behind me? More like 1/2 a second, IIRC. However, we're professionals on a closed course, much like the Navy's Blue Angels. Don't try this without adult supervision. :lol:

 

[madmike2]

Ya think the guy in the picture above is two seconds behind me? More like 1/2 a second, IIRC. However, we're professionals on a closed course, much like the Navy's Blue Angels. Don't try this without adult supervision. :lol:

I will say that riding sweep on a couple of rides last year has completely changed my view of "group rides". I saw waaaayyyy too much of what this picture illustrates. From, IMO, following distance being too close, being in the wrong lane position approaching a turn and riders clearly not well matched to the skill level needed for a particular stretch of roadway. Then include the "incident" at the bear sighting just as we were catching and passing a trio of other bikes on Hwy 4 and one will understand why I am now encouraging people to pair or triple up and leave 1/2 mile or more between the small groups. And, if a group is catching or pressing you then flag them around and let them go ahead. We will establish rendezvous points for rest, drink breaks, gas, lunch or whatever.

BTW, I think there is a signal in the post about Hand Signals that was never pinned. On one ride (Parade of Harleys and me) I attended the signal for single file was the leader holding up his index finger (like pointing to the sky). The signal for stagger formation was like "hook'em horns", arm straight up, little (pinkie) finger and index finger extended. I found that even in that type of controlled ride that people just wouldn't keep their spacing. That is a discipline we all need to work on.

Great topic to start, TC. Let's all start thinking NOW in preparation for next riding season.

 

[Toecutter]

On one ride (Parade of Harleys and me) I attended the signal for single file was the leader holding up his index finger (like pointing to the sky). The signal for stagger formation was like "hook'em horns", arm straight up, little (pinkie) finger and index finger extended.

I like that one better than the one I made up.
Group law?

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Here's the full pic. Seeing who is in lead, I remember that we were going very fast on straights and very slowly around turns which created an accordian kind of positioning. This is a classic example of different riding styles causing safety concerns. Clearly riders with similar styles and abilities will be able to more easily maintain spacing.

 

[Toecutter]

Here's the full pic.

Sweet! Copied for use as desktop wallpaper.

Clearly riders with similar styles and abilities will be able to more easily maintain spacing.

Not to mention sobriety levels. That was the ride that had participants embibing at the lunch stop. Any future rides will have that covered pre-ride (days before).
TWN was probably looking to pass us at the time the pic was taken. I recall getting passed early on in the coastal portion, as we were pushing a rather conservative pace at the time.

Great topic to start, TC. Let's all start thinking NOW in preparation for next riding season.

For me the choice was either to forego group rides altogether, or take a pro-active role in making them safer. In my case, choosing to not be there in case one goes terribly wrong is of dubious comfort when I'd rather be there and do my best to ensure they end happily, taking some credit for the positive outcome, without being all stressed out during the event. To date, the larger group (6+) rides I've been involved with, while highly enjoyable, have been the most stressful of my bike-related activities.
For any rides that I'm gonna be involved in I will highly recommend that lead and sweep are in radio contact, regardless of the number of rider packs in between. I know a few of us players have radios these days, thanks in part to the generosity of a certain anonymous benefactor. :wub: Let's put 'em to good use.

Communication from front to back, and vice versa, can be invaluable in case of a mishap, and worth the price of its addition.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

What kind of radios? I think CB would probably work best, but there are many types and we'd have to standardize to make it easier.

My most recent ride was a lot of fun until BBIII got hit by a car. He left the group early to go home so it wasn't part of the group riding style that caused the accident. That said, my safety briefings and written concerns apparently weren't heard by a few riders that I let go ahead of me mid ride.

I was aggressively tailgaited to the point of having a bike beside me in my lane at 50 mph at times. I understand that riding in groups is new to people, but there are those that wont listen. The beer drinkers that TC mentioned earlier were just doing something they've done for years. I'm sure they had no clue that drinking beer at lunch might concern some of the other riders. You'd figure that wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

The bottom line I have is this: If I brief a rider on safety concerns and they ignore that briefing, I will pull over and ask that rider to move on and I'll wait long enough to ensure we don't catch him. Either that, or I'll just ask the guy to leave the ride. I don't want to be a jerk about stuff, but I also have had my fill of friends going down and I don't want to witness it if possible.

It would really help if in the ride planning section we could get a sticky on "The Pace" and on hand signal charts so that we don't have to hunt them down for every ride.

 

[Toecutter]

What kind of radios? I think CB would probably work best, but there are many types and we'd have to standardize to make it easier.

I'm currently using a Kenwood radio that interfaces quite nicely with my Autocom. I'd have to chuck the Autocom setup before switching to a J&M, so it's cost and practicality prohibitive, unless somebody has a way to add CB to my current setup.

It would really help if in the ride planning section we could get a sticky on "The Pace" and on hand signal charts so that we don't have to hunt them down for every ride.

Amen!

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

What kind of radios? I think CB would probably work best, but there are many types and we'd have to standardize to make it easier.

I'm currently using a Kenwood radio that interfaces quite nicely with my Autocom. I'd have to chuck the Autocom setup before switching to a J&M, so it's cost and practicality prohibitive, unless somebody has a way to add CB to my current setup.

It would really help if in the ride planning section we could get a sticky on "The Pace" and on hand signal charts so that we don't have to hunt them down for every ride.

Amen!

I guess we need you open a thread about your Kenwood in the Parts and Accessories section

 

[Barabus]

What kind of radios? I think CB would probably work best, but there are many types and we'd have to standardize to make it easier.
My most recent ride was a lot of fun until BBIII got hit by a car. He left the group early to go home so it wasn't part of the group riding style that caused the accident. That said, my safety briefings and written concerns apparently weren't heard by a few riders that I let go ahead of me mid ride.

I was aggressively tailgaited to the point of having a bike beside me in my lane at 50 mph at times. I understand that riding in groups is new to people, but there are those that wont listen. The beer drinkers that TC mentioned earlier were just doing something they've done for years. I'm sure they had no clue that drinking beer at lunch might concern some of the other riders. You'd figure that wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

The bottom line I have is this: If I brief a rider on safety concerns and they ignore that briefing, I will pull over and ask that rider to move on and I'll wait long enough to ensure we don't catch him. Either that, or I'll just ask the guy to leave the ride. I don't want to be a jerk about stuff, but I also have had my fill of friends going down and I don't want to witness it if possible.

It would really help if in the ride planning section we could get a sticky on "The Pace" and on hand signal charts so that we don't have to hunt them down for every ride.

OV I likes what I hear. The problem is in implementation. How to convey and enforce without being the asshat. The sticky is a good start. Anyone else face these problems successfully?

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

OV I likes what I hear. The problem is in implementation. How to convey and enforce without being the asshat. The sticky is a good start. Anyone else face these problems successfully?

Barabus (by the way, do you have one of them cars?),

I rather think that if the ride leader gets a few of the regulars on the ride that they'll have back-up in asking someone to leave the ride. I know I would have no worries if I was on a ride with a number of the riders up here in NorCal. Down South, you have riders that would help you enforce "rules" too.

Maybe we can come up with a signal that indicates to someone that they are riding unsafely? We could hand signal them to shape up first and if it stays bad, we know the rest of the story.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

I have created new threads for:

hand signals

and

The Pace

See where these are? If you go to ride planning, don't select a region, but scroll down to the messages below all the regions.

I have asked slapnpop to make these sticky for us.

 

[wheatonFJR]

...Maybe we can come up with a signal that indicates to someone that they are riding unsafely? We could hand signal them to shape up first and if it stays bad, we know the rest of the story.

Isn't that the Universal TWN hand signal? :****:

...sorry. Good points being made on FJR group rides. Many different types of riders are being attracted to the FJR. All is good so long as ride rules are explained and people observe them.

We don't want to be reading of more riders going down...especially if it is self-inflicted or "group ride" inflicted.

 

[rogdeb]

The 75% rule is a good one and one that I try to follow.

"]

_______________________________________________________________________________________

A Blind Right Hand Turn, as I understand it: Approaching the corner, stay near the centerline, slow and brake for the corner, the one should release the brake while slowly rolling on the throttle to settle the suspension as one begins to follow the arc of the road (still on the centerline but turning your head looking through the corner, looking for the imaginary exit.) . Once the operator sees the exit he/she can turn into the corner (The reason its called delayed entry/late apex) and accelerate through the corner using the throttle to "stand" the bike up while looking toward the next corner to select the proper lane position for THAT corner.

This is the same technique described by David Hough in his books "Proficient Motorcycling" and "More Proficient Motorcycling".

_______________________________________________________________________________________

.

Also described by Nick Ienatsch (Sport Riding Techniques) and Lee Parks (Total Control). I read all 4 books and attended "Streetmasters" with Mikey. They all teach the same techniques and I practise these as well as I am able to.

 

[odot]

I guess if someone gives me the bird that I am going to get a beer. Cool....who's buying?

 

[rogdeb]

I guess if someone gives me the bird that I am going to get a beer. Cool....who's buying?

If you say so - ?? :****: followed by of course.

 

[madmike2]

I guess we need you open a thread about your Kenwood in the Parts and Accessories section

FRS radio that interfaces (including being powered by) the Autocom. Expect a PM.

That said, my safety briefings and written concerns apparently weren't heard by a few riders that I let go ahead of me mid ride.
I was aggressively tailgaited to the point of having a bike beside me in my lane at 50 mph at times. I understand that riding in groups is new to people, but there are those that won't listen. The beer drinkers that TC mentioned earlier were just doing something they've done for years. I'm sure they had no clue that drinking beer at lunch might concern some of the other riders. You'd figure that wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

The bottom line I have is this: If I brief a rider on safety concerns and they ignore that briefing, I will pull over and ask that rider to move on and I'll wait long enough to ensure we don't catch him. Either that, or I'll just ask the guy to leave the ride. I don't want to be a jerk about stuff, but I also have had my fill of friends going down and I don't want to witness it if possible.

Here you have stated the problem with organizing group rides. I remember we were discussing some of these very points via email last year when I expressed my increasing stress level when organizing rides. The difficulty in enforcing any rule becomes the issue. The rides are open to all who read and post.

It has always concerned me that, even with the best intentions, many riders aren't applying what is outlined during the pre-ride briefing. I mentioned above that I was upset when riding sweep by:

A.) Riders crowding one another.

B.) Riders choosing poor lines through corners (including having their head if not parts of their bike over the centerline).

C.) Riders entering corners too hot and running wide on exit.

And I can't help feeling responsible if I organized the ride.

I real do not want to think we need a "Ride Captain" and a sheriff, but anarchy isn't working.

Since a pre-ride safety briefing has become "fairly normal" for the NorCal groups we should consider "stressing" some points when posting the ride:

1.) No alcoholic beverages when we are going to be riding (including lunch).

2.) We WILL be riding "The Pace". If you lack self-control and bike-control you might want to consider not joining this ride.

3.) Ride your own ride. I know I say this everytime I give "The Pre-Ride Lecture"....yeah, yeah, I like being the Dad...but some still don't "get it". I appreciate Painman realizing his limitations on the FJR, slowing down and riding at the rear of the pack. Great personal responibility!

I really liked the idea of not riding en masse. Riding in 2s and 3s and having set rendezvous points for breaks and lunch is working for me. (Of course, I had a great partner to pair up with. :yahoo: )

Perhaps you're right Andrew, we are just going to have to get "mildly confrontational" for the good of everyone. I know there are riders out there who can ride circles around me but that ability doesn't play well in a group. 2s and 3s let the "fasties" go ahead of the "mildly fast", the "wannabe fast" and the "scenery appreciative".

Your turn. Maybe we should have lunch and talk this out. Now, where to meet Bob? Sonora? Modesto?

[SIZE=8pt]signed:[/SIZE]Sparky

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Your turn. Maybe we should have lunch and talk this out.

Haven't ridden w/you guys -- but, looking fwd to it. Riding in small groups can be fun with interaction between riders and the shared experiences that promote camaraderie. One topic you may want to discuss when at lunch is -- acceleration. Acceleration = miles/hour/hour and leads to the "caterpillar effect" -- wherein the following riders must accelerate harder and harder to keep up. Those not wanting to ride briskly in a group are well advised to ride with the front riders as riding at the rear requires much right wrist exercise.One way to minimize the "caterpillar effect" is for the (all-important) leader to always accelerate moderately. Due to the physics of acceleration (there is a 'time-delay' involved -- all riders do not leave as one; but, successively) and those in the rear will still be treated to brisk riding automatically. A good ride leader rides more with his mirrors than anyone -- it's not easy (and may not come naturally but needs to be studied and practiced) -- but, is appreciated by all recipients.