09 FJR--two-up floppiness?

[Bill Lumberg]

Ill camouflage this double post by saying OP- glad you didnt go down. Try a little bit of everything suggested, and ride safe. If my feet are on the pegs, I'm pretty much good. But low speed, putting my feet down like in a parking lot or at a light- my wifes feet are often everywhere I need mine to be.

 

[eflyguy]

I'll add - compared to a Gen I ('01) FZ1, I find NO difference in slow-speed behavior between that and the FJR when 2-up. The slightest twitch of the passenger has more effect than anything. The FJR IS more stable in general, no doubt due to the additional weight.

 

[blakmambo]

Looks like I have still "exceeded my likes quota" . . .

CanadianSteve said: As has been stated, getting the suspension preloads set correctly and shocks dialed in is a good place to start. (The Gen 3 is a much better load carrying spring rate)Some tires have a sharper profile and bring the the low speed top heaviness issue more to the forefront, (while improving the highspeed sharpness and response. The GT's are more of a quick rider compliment and the PR4's somewhat heavier handling but maybe with a slightly better low speed profile(front).

For what its worth , I rode a fully outfitted C10 for many years (7.5 gal tank). The FJR is absolutely a walk in the park compared to it , at almost stopped speeds.

@C-Steve: Thanks for the thoughts, yeah, the Pirelli is still "new" and so I can't exactly tell if that made a change to behaviors or not. But, indeed on the "Fjr is a walk in the park compared to C-10" . . . yes, today was "C-10 day" . . . almost full tank of gas makes for an attentive ride, but I have a Storz bar conversion on that bike and it puts the bars in a very good position for the range of riding tasks, best thing I ever did for that bike, but we've been together a long time and it feels like an old shoe, we know each other very well. Still getting used to the FJR; I'd like to blend them together taking the best from each to make "the perfect bike." FJR is lighter by far and handling is very crisp . . . but I tend to get my foot on the banana peel just because I can. My olde moto mentor said, "It takes about 150 miles to become one with the bike" which I think is pretty accurate, used to do a lot of 250 mile days just for the ride, now don't have time for it, so I rarely get to the 150 mile Oneness mode with the FJR . . . maybe next weekend I'll try for Oneness.

Bill L said: It’s just harder with a pillion. Regardless of the bike. Bigger the pillion, the smaller your margin for error. And it wasn’t big in the first place when you’re talking about low speed. Front preload and inflation are key factors though.

@Bill:

Thanks, yes, also glad that I didn't dump it to the great entertainment of the Sunday pedestrian crowd . . . and yeah, the pillion does add a layer of complication to lo speed handling . . . comboed in with "pilot errors" as the FJR is highly responsive to inputs.

 

[jtdunc]

To answer one specific question, the passenger should keep their feet on the pegs at all times unless actually getting on or off, with the possible exception of a leg stretch when travelling steadily.
I'm no expert, but from everything I've learnt, the passenger should keep their body in line with the driver, and should never attempt to "help" to lean the bike. They should pretend they are a sack of potatoes tied to the driver (find some other description for your significant other if you want to keep her).

Even though I rode dirt bikes and a 900cc Ninja decades ago, I took an MSF 2-wheel course and then a 3-wheel course.

Passenger ALWAYS stays mounted on the peg and neutral. Foot down could get broken if planted or dragged in an unexpected drop situation.

 

[blakmambo]

To answer one specific question, the passenger should keep their feet on the pegs at all times unless actually getting on or off,

Even though I rode dirt bikes and a 900cc Ninja decades ago, I took an MSF 2-wheel course and then a 3-wheel course.

Passenger ALWAYS stays mounted on the peg and neutral. Foot down could get broken if planted or dragged in an unexpected drop situation.

@jtdunc:

Thanks for the comments, I see you kept your Ninja stored at the Rock Store way back when, I used to be a regular there on Sat mornings, but these days no time for standing around next to my bike, now I'm an "intermittent."

Well, sure, I've never suggested that my pillion do anything like, "drop a leg," it was more of a rhetorical question based upon watching tandam racers at Laguna Seca many years back, where the "monkey" is an **active** and engaged pillion and is doing stuff that could be considered "extreme behavior" to keep the bike moving quickly, versus, an essentially inactive and no longer that interested pillion. Obviously a well trained pillion could be an active agent to assist the pilot, I have seen comments over the years from two-up riders suggesting that kind of interaction compared to the "helmet thwack" on every shift, and/or general feeling that there was a "sack of potatoes back there" instead of a fluid commingling of rider and pillion--aim high, then go with what you get, but one can always dream, no?

I think we more or less have the party line on pillion dropping a foot or leg; but there doesn't seem to be too much data on other aspects of the vaunted active pillion and their special secrets to making it seem like the rider is a "great rider"???

 

[Eagle Six]

I think we more or less have the party line on pillion dropping a foot or leg; but there doesn't seem to be too much data on other aspects of the vaunted active pillion and their special secrets to making it seem like the rider is a "great rider"???

My wife has been my only passenger for the past 11 years. She rapidly developed due her interest in wanting to be a good passenger and our exchange of riding information, plus she obtained her endorsement when we met. She doesn't fall asleep or space out. She enjoys the ride as much as I do and that is what she is out to do. If she doesn't feel up to it, or uninterested in the particular ride, she doesn't come along.

She keeps her feet up and butt centered, while paying attention to the road, traffic, conditions, and checking our six. We have an intercom which allows us to share information and more importantly for me to feed her what I'm about to do. She responds to this information as we have previously trained, understanding we may come to a point in responding to traffic that each is on their own.

The basic principle is to keep on the bike, stay together. If we go down I want it to be a low side. In that event, stay with the bike and stay with me until ground contact, get the low side foot out from under the bike and push away from the bike with the high side foot. Try to slide and avoid tumbling.

She consistently provides me feedback with traffic, animals and obstructions. I know she is paying attention because she often ask questions along the way to keep better in tune with my intentions. We aren't perfect and ascribe to improve as we learn. At speed, she keeps her feet, legs and butt planted and will lean her upper body to match my body in turns that I will shift my upper body. She tries to keep just enough space between us so she can see ahead into the turn. There are other little things she does to assure she is ready in the event I need to make a rapid maneuver, lacking the time to advise her.

I think the best we can do for ourselves, as the rider, and for our passenger is to keep the discussion open and ongoing to inform them of what is necessary at parking lot speed, through traffic and at highway speeds to have a safe ride. My wife isn't 'just along for the ride', rather she is an equal in the ride. She is my co-pilot and we are a team. We discuss the route, the traffic, the time, the weather, the gear we take, the people we ride with, the destination and options, along with alternatives. She feels as much a part of the ride as I do, because she is.

It's both about the ride and the destination for us. Mostly about the ride, and the good part about the destination is, once we get there, it ends that ride and marks the beginning of the next ride. Good for me, the wife likes to speed. Not silly stupid speed, more like what we may term a spirited ride. She also has a lot of faith in my ability, which is a lot more than I would have if I were the passenger!!

 

[roger dodger]

Eagle Six sounds like a 'Master Plan' for a good pillion.

I just rode my first week 2 up this spring. We did well @ highway speeds, but she grew to appreciate the sweepers slowly. No comm unit so I talked her thru the 'butt stays centered' and 'look over the inside shoulder' etc. Later we compared notes w/ others riding 2 up. Most said they ride 50% - 75% as fast 2 up as they would solo. I ended the week riding about 80% as fast on the highway... 70% + on the curves (sweepers in MO) and being happy to 'share the ride' w/ my SO.

I think the bike is fine, but most 2 ups are heavier and sloppier due to rearward weight bias. Try to stiffen the rear and stay off the front brake (duh).

Also, at a MSF class, they taught us to look WAY farther into the turn than you expect, and that helped me doing U turns and figure 8's a lot.

 

[metalman]

Dragging the rear brake while applying throttle with the clutch in the friction zone (when done properly) allows witchcraft-like low speed stability.

^^^^^ THIS !!

 

[blakmambo]

I think we more or less have the party line on pillion dropping a foot or leg; but there doesn't seem to be too much data on other aspects of the vaunted active pillion and their special secrets to making it seem like the rider is a "great rider"???

Eagle6 said: She consistently provides me feedback with traffic, animals and obstructions. I know she is paying attention because she often ask questions along the way to keep better in tune with my intentions. We aren't perfect and ascribe to improve as we learn. There are other little things she does to assure she is ready in the event I need to make a rapid maneuver, lacking the time to advise her.

I think the best we can do for ourselves, as the rider, and for our passenger is to keep the discussion open and ongoing to inform them of what is necessary at parking lot speed, through traffic and at highway speeds to have a safe ride. My wife isn't 'just along for the ride', rather she is an equal in the ride. She is my co-pilot and we are a team. She also has a lot of faith in my ability, which is a lot more than I would have if I were the passenger!!

@Eagle6:

Agreed that generally they are better than we are at the pillion and the power of "faith." If you don't mind the comment, what you are describing is "our" point of view of what the pillion is experiencing, rather than the pillion describing "their ride." But, it does sound like a "team-work" experience, as well as "interactive" which is indeed very close to "ideal" and so is an "additive" experience or "synergistic" rather than "1 + 1" . . . two separate experiences, that can also enter into the 2-up phenomenon.

@rodger dodger: Thanks also for your thoughts, I agree that two-up riding requires a "I'm riding for two" attitude and therefore cuts out a lot of the "go for it" mentality that enters the one up ride . . . the thought of "do I want to go down with her along for the ride when we **know** that pillion injury or even fatality is very high" brings a level of fore-thought and caution that didn't used to come into the ride . . . . If you've had the, "O my, traffic was moving at 65 mph and now is dead stopped and no room to glide past the stopped car, no choice but to lock it up and rear end starts drifting around and you start to see catastrophe in the making due to heavy throttle handedness . . ." . . . then there is the consideration that the responsibility is "for two" and not "whatever will be," etc. Welcome to your "first week of two-up riding" . . . may you both reach the greater than 30 years of riding togetherness that my dahling pillion and I have shared, together and separately.

We have in CA roads like the Angeles Crest Highway built in the mountains in the 30's that has every kind of complex turn you could imagine joined together, I have ridden behind guys who were super-fast on that road two-up, with a "fast pillion" along behind them, our team was "team slow" . . . I'd say we were at 45-50% of what I could do when riding solo . . . in CA "sweepers" don't really count as "turns" . . . compared to fast dropping in elevation, off camber, decreasing radius after another . . . strewn with junk rocks as well as whole families in Datsun B-210's making a U-ie in the middle of a blind turn . . . you can "go for broke" and a lot of guys step to the next phase on that road when they ride straight off the road that turned prior before they realized it . . . .

@metalman: Yes, this data has been mentioned a couple times . . . doesn't take into consideration the interaction of "crazy people" walking into your intended "witchcraft-like" path . . . that is "witch v witch" . . . .

 

[Eagle Six]

Eagle Six sounds like a 'Master Plan' for a good pillion.
I just rode my first week 2 up this spring. We did well @ highway speeds, but she grew to appreciate the sweepers slowly. No comm unit so I talked her thru the 'butt stays centered' and 'look over the inside shoulder' etc. Later we compared notes w/ others riding 2 up. Most said they ride 50% - 75% as fast 2 up as they would solo. I ended the week riding about 80% as fast on the highway... 70% + on the curves (sweepers in MO) and being happy to 'share the ride' w/ my SO.

I think the bike is fine, but most 2 ups are heavier and sloppier due to rearward weight bias. Try to stiffen the rear and stay off the front brake (duh).

Also, at a MSF class, they taught us to look WAY farther into the turn than you expect, and that helped me doing U turns and figure 8's a lot.

Thank you Roger for the kind words. I'm not sure it is our Master Plan, but it is currently our plan and we are always listening to others to learn what to do and what to avoid. Years ago when we didn't have the comm's, we did what you do, each stop we exchanged information about the ride and developed a few hand signals and would chat in town, at slow speeds and at traffic stops. Like others I hold my speed down when 2-up. We like 10-20 over for most roads, with a few that we can double the limit for short spurts. But there are also times when we hold back, slow down and she gets to enjoy the scenery. In the twisties I'm probably closer to 60% speed 2-up compared to solo. I'm important to me, my bike is important to me, but my prize sits on the back and I like lots of error margin when she is aboard. Hopefully I have matured enough in the past few years to avoid the knee dragging silly speed on the street, that should be reserved for the track!

Early morning parking lots (Walmart, Home Depot, etc.) are our friend as it gives us a makeshift course to practice slow maneuvers, as well as, some higher speed tight leaning turns. I also like the light poles in the mix as it provides a means to cut as close as comfortable to get used to what may occur in traffic. I'm not in total agreement with some of the stuff and methods they teach at the MSF courses, but they are an advantage, I think riders should periodically attend when available in our areas, if not for anything other than a refresher, as I'm always a student.

 

[Eagle Six]

@blackmambo:
Agreed that generally they are better than we are at the pillion and the power of "faith." If you don't mind the comment, what you are describing is "our" point of view of what the pillion is experiencing, rather than the pillion describing "their ride." But, it does sound like a "team-work" experience, as well as "interactive" which is indeed very close to "ideal" and so is an "additive" experience or "synergistic" rather than "1 + 1" . . . two separate experiences, that can also enter into the 2-up phenomenon.

I don't mind at all, however consider my point of view is based on the feedback from my passenger. It is a part of our 'style of ride' that we have developed over the years. We communicate very well and share with each other the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[BanjoBoy]

Chew know, after think'in 'bout this, all I can say is better fall'in into a turn, than standing up!

I had an '86 FJ1200 w/ them goofy 16" wheels, and after the tires would get a little worn, that pig would stand up in the corners, 'n always seeded worse w/ the wife/sister on back.

Count yer blessings the FJR falls into the corner!

P.S. I think add'in stiffer springs in front, or dialing up the preload will make it less "floppy"

 

[blakmambo]

Chew know, after think'in 'bout this, all I can say is better fall'in into a turn, than standing up!I had an '86 FJ1200 w/ them goofy 16" wheels, and after the tires would get a little worn, that pig would stand up in the corners, 'n always seeded worse w/ the wife/sister on back.

Count yer blessings the FJR falls into the corner!

P.S. I think add'in stiffer springs in front, or dialing up the preload will make it less "floppy"

LOL, right, always important to be thankful for what we've got, as, it could always be, get, or have been worse. But, thanks for the tech details . . . got a few thousand to go before cracking the fork tubes, next stop is the pricey valve check operation. Haven't messed with the preload settings, that's one of the "great mysteries" of motorcycling, does it start when I hit the start button is my main requirement, do I get where I intended to go? That kind of general mission statement, rather than one click in or one click out, etc.

 

[roger dodger]

Mambo, The easiest (and minimum) way to assess your floppiness, is to set the suspension settings to the Factory OEM marks. At least try that and then flip the lever to HARD when you pick up a passenger. Then report back how that feels.

 

[blakmambo]

Mambo, The easiest (and minimum) way to assess your floppiness, is to set the suspension settings to the Factory OEM marks. At least try that and then flip the lever to HARD when you pick up a passenger. Then report back how that feels.

@RD:

Thanks for the instructions, I'll have to look to see where the items are set, the PO said he had the mechanic set it for "firm" and he is ballpark a tad heavier than I am . . . I haven't felt the need previously to "fix what didn't seem to be broke" . . . but, um, my lever is always set to HARD . . . very HARD . . . . Like I said, I'm not constantly fiddling with the bike between "solo" and 2-up, the bike is always set the same way . . . bags on, etc, so I'm not playing one way and then finding that, "Oh wow, the bike is wider with the bags on and won't squeeze between the truck and the wide car . . . like it does w/o the bags" . . . . It's always set the same, not in a hurry these days, but, I'll check into where it is set up and post back, prolly be a couple days, "busy, for the next few days. FJR is up for the Saturday slot, so I'll be able to look then.

 

[blakmambo]

rodger dodger said: Mambo, The easiest (and minimum) way to assess your floppiness, is to set the suspension settings to the Factory OEM marks. At least try that and then flip the lever to HARD when you pick up a passenger. Then report back how that feels.

@rd:

So, I did take a look at the fork tubes and I didn't see any hash marks, lines, or dots that would indicate "default" or recommended settings . . . as far as I could determine. I thought I would turn the "pre-load" knob, little black knob on top in "one click" each toward the "H" direction, I assumed that "ten" was short for "tension; the only obvious finding was that the two forks were not at the same position, possibly off by what might have been "two clicks" . . . different, with the left fork tube being the "softer" setting . . . might explain why the left turn bug-a-boo seems to show up??? I set them both the same with "H" at the 12 noon position, from wherever it was . . . 1 - 2 clicks softer . . . .

 

[Niehart]

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/14779-new-suspension-settings/page-1?hl=+suspension +setup

Lots of great info in this blog.

 

[Eagle Six]

So, I did take a look at the fork tubes and I didn't see any hash marks, lines, or dots that would indicate "default" or recommended settings . . . as far as I could determine. I thought I would turn the "pre-load" knob, little black knob on top in "one click" each toward the "H" direction, I assumed that "ten" was short for "tension; the only obvious finding was that the two forks were not at the same position, possibly off by what might have been "two clicks" . . . different, with the left fork tube being the "softer" setting . . . might explain why the left turn bug-a-boo seems to show up??? I set them both the same with "H" at the 12 noon position, from wherever it was . . . 1 - 2 clicks softer . . . .

On the 2009 1300AE, the pre-load is adjusted with a wrench and does not have clicks, rather circular lines around the pre-load shaft. The black knob with clicks is the rebound damping. The compression damping adjustment is a screw down on the fork legs above the front axle. Under the black knob is a hex bolt head. That is the pre-load adjustment requiring a wrench to set. Below this bolt head are lines on a shaft/stud that goes in and out as you turn the bolt adjuster. The current line setting is the closest line at the top of the very large hex bolt head, which is the fork cap bolt (below). To determine the current setting for the rebound and compression damping, we turn the settings in all the way while counting clicks. Therefore to make the settings, from the tight (full in) position, we count the clicks out. Keeping in mind, tight is not really tight, just turn the adjustment knob or screw in as far as it will go without forcing.

 

[blakmambo]

Latest update: Stumbling around in the dark of my backyard trying to get a view of the "harvest moon" I forgot that I had moved the FJR, covered with a black cover, and boom--walked right into it . . . . I have the side-stand shimmed so that the bike is more upright rather than compressing one fork tube, and slowly and at first silently over she went tilting away from me, no place to grab the bike under the cover, etc--the floppiness is implicit in two wheel vehicles.

Point of this post is that the FJR seems to take tip overs very well; it was dark but it seemed like the only issue was that the mirror folded back, otherwise the plastic seemed to be quite intact. Second time on the same side, is a "charm" : - 0

Built tough to handle the slip falls . . . .

 

[RossKean]

If you had a GenIII, you would probably be looking for a replacement mirror stay/subframe.