2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted

[DaveT]

I won't let the bike kill the desire to ride.

Just be careful not to let the bike kill you altogether.

If the engine stalls or dies at the wrong moment this little annoyance could turn deadly. Yamaha better sit up and pay attention and get this fixed before someone gets hurt.

I was planning a trip to Colorado on the FJR later this month, but now I am having SERIOUS second thoughts about taking it into the mountains.

Fred,

As I indicated to you earlier and in my post above, my 2006 has not exhibited any of these problems -- as for recent rides I had the FJR on a trip in May from Woodland Park (8600) over Monarch Pass (almost 12k), then down as low as 3400k in northern AZ, and later back up to 12k in Colorado on the way home. No surging issues at all. Just had it over in Montrose again during a three-day period, riding over via Independence Pass (12k), and then the next day over Red Mountain and Molas Passes (11k+) with no issues.

 

[Medium Al]

The Serv Mgr just called and said he and a Yamaha rep took my bike and another up in the mountains, He said both bikes exibited "some slight surging" up near the pass but nothing "unusual". They had no problems starting out in first gear and said the "minor" surging went away after shut-off and restartin the bikes. He said they'd drive them up again tomorrow.
Now, does anybody here still think they are going to "duplicate" the problem?

Call them up. Tell them to ride conservatively at very light throttle. RPM's between 2500-4000. Ride it like they own it and just bought it and read the manual on break-in procedures.

 

[DPS]

Call them up. Tell them to ride conservatively at very light throttle. RPM's between 2500-4000. Ride it like they own it and just bought it and read the manual on break-in procedures.

I think you're missing the point. He said both bikes began surging at about the same location on BOTH trips up the mountain. Both bikes stopped surging after they were turned off and back on. What he said was that the surging they experienced was not "abnormal" nor did they consider driving the bikes at slow speeds (while surging) to be dangerous.

They duplicated the problem, they're just saying it's not a problem and the bikes are not unsafe.

This seems consistent with TruWreck's experience with a different dealer. The Yamaha rep was present during a test of his bike and found no problem. My bike was supposed to have been tested last Friday by the dealer alone, yet it was postponed until today when the rep accompanied the dealer. Both TruWreck and I filed NHTSA complaints and both of us had our bikes tested by a Yamaha rep at Yamaha's expense. It's as though they are going down the list of NHTSA complaints in an effort to disprove them, one by one. This how they can continue to disregard the formal complaints being registered.

Has anyone else had their bikes test driven?

This is really beginning to smell bad. I have no doubt they'll call again tomorrow and tell me everything's fine with the bike.

 

[Medium Al]

Call them up. Tell them to ride conservatively at very light throttle. RPM's between 2500-4000. Ride it like they own it and just bought it and read the manual on break-in procedures.

I think you're missing the point. He said both bikes began surging at about the same location on BOTH trips up the mountain. Both bikes stopped surging after they were turned off and back on. What he said was that the surging they experienced was not "abnormal" nor did they consider driving the bikes at slow speeds (while surging) to be dangerous.

They duplicated the problem, they're just saying it's not a problem and the bikes are not unsafe.

This seems consistent with TruWreck's experience with a different dealer. The Yamaha rep was present during a test of his bike and found no problem. My bike was supposed to have been tested last Friday by the dealer alone, yet it was postponed until today when the rep accompanied the dealer. Both TruWreck and I filed NHTSA complaints and both of us had our bikes tested by a Yamaha rep at Yamaha's expense. It's as though they are going down the list of NHTSA complaints in an effort to disprove them, one by one. This how they can continue to disregard the formal complaints being registered.

Has anyone else had their bikes test driven?

This is really beginning to smell bad. I have no doubt they'll call again tomorrow and tell me everything's fine with the bike.

Then they did not duplicate the problem. Which, as I have pointed out in another thread, the severity depends heavily on how hard you ride the bike. The good news is they reproduced a small version of the problem identically on two differnt bikes at the same point in space-time, and saw the problem go away on restarting. Now just tell them to ride less agressively through the exact same route and they'll no doubt discover what we all know. Which is it will get one of us killed under not-to-hard-to-imagine circumstances.

If you haven't already please look at the thread "Attention Yamha People: How to Duplicate Surging Problem" or something like that.

 

[christhemaster]

This seems consistent with TruWreck's experience with a different dealer. The Yamaha rep was present during a test of his bike and found no problem. My bike was supposed to have been tested last Friday by the dealer alone, yet it was postponed until today when the rep accompanied the dealer. Both TruWreck and I filed NHTSA complaints and both of us had our bikes tested by a Yamaha rep at Yamaha's expense. It's as though they are going down the list of NHTSA complaints in an effort to disprove them, one by one. This how they can continue to disregard the formal complaints being registered.
Has anyone else had their bikes test driven?

This is really beginning to smell bad. I have no doubt they'll call again tomorrow and tell me everything's fine with the bike.

It sounds to me like you have a communication problem with your dealer and not with Yamaha.

Understand that Yamaha understands that there is an issue with these machines and wants to fix it but first and foremost they must first duplicate the problem. Also understand that many of the above owners have not wanted their machine ridden on long test rides or poked and prodded. What you do as a bike owner and then pass off to a tech does not allways come out clear. That is why when a bike is riddden and they can not duplicate the problem, they say there is not a problem evident.

It is not a conspiracy and Yamaha is not trying to cover it up.

Remember Yamaha wants to figure the problem out and after today and with the information gathered they will have an answer. Not overnight but give it sometime and let them do their job.

If you have problems with your dealer, find a new one. There is more than dealer in your area.

Flame on, Chris

 

[DPS]

Then they did not duplicate the problem. Which, as I have pointed out in another thread, the severity depends heavily on how hard you ride the bike. The good news is they reproduced a small version of the problem identically on two differnt bikes at the same point in space-time, and saw the problem go away on restarting. Now just tell them to ride less agressively through the exact same route and they'll no doubt discover what we all know. Which is it will get one of us killed under not-to-hard-to-imagine circumstances.
If you haven't already please look at the thread "Attention Yamha People: How to Duplicate Surging Problem" or something like that.

Al, Yamaha has decided to ignore this hoping it will go away. It's not widespread and they've apparently decided the cost of admitting the problem far exceeds the cost of ignoring it. I've only seen two people say they wouldn't buy another Yamaha because of it - and they make what? ... maybe $1,000 profit per bike vs the cost of replacing $1,000 ECU's on thousands of bikes? I think TruWreck submitted multiple occurances on NHTSA complaints. You add those to mine and Yamaha has already dismissed maybe 25% of the formal complaints against them just by testing our bikes and reporting no problems. A couple more selective test rides and they can claim that any remaining complaints will also prove to be "unsubstantiated". They don't have to prove us all wrong, just a reasonable sampling.

By the way, they drove the route I prescribed: I-90 at 70mph speed limit. Do you really think they only experienced a "mild" case on both bikes, both trips? They're counting on the fact that the vast majority of owners with this problem won't do anything moe than just complain here.

Chris: This is the dealer that Yamaha Customer Service told me to take the bike to. BTW, how's your 2007 FJR running?

 

[Medium Al]

This seems consistent with TruWreck's experience with a different dealer. The Yamaha rep was present during a test of his bike and found no problem. My bike was supposed to have been tested last Friday by the dealer alone, yet it was postponed until today when the rep accompanied the dealer. Both TruWreck and I filed NHTSA complaints and both of us had our bikes tested by a Yamaha rep at Yamaha's expense. It's as though they are going down the list of NHTSA complaints in an effort to disprove them, one by one. This how they can continue to disregard the formal complaints being registered.
Has anyone else had their bikes test driven?

This is really beginning to smell bad. I have no doubt they'll call again tomorrow and tell me everything's fine with the bike.

It sounds to me like you have a communication problem with your dealer and not with Yamaha.

Understand that Yamaha understands that there is an issue with these machines and wants to fix it but first and foremost they must first duplicate the problem. Also understand that many of the above owners have not wanted their machine ridden on long test rides or poked and prodded. What you do as a bike owner and then pass off to a tech does not allways come out clear. That is why when a bike is riddden and they can not duplicate the problem, they say there is not a problem evident.

It is not a conspiracy and Yamaha is not trying to cover it up.

Remember Yamaha wants to figure the problem out and after today and with the information gathered they will have an answer. Not overnight but give it sometime and let them do their job.

If you have problems with your dealer, find a new one. There is more than dealer in your area.

Flame on, Chris

NO no no don't find a new dealer. The one you've got has done more than any of them so far, and he's just one ride away from nailing this. Just have him repeat the same ride with very little throttle and game over, we're done. I actually am very pleased to hear a dealer and tech rep have reproduced even a little of this. They are going out again tomorrow, already scheduled another ride, he needs to contact them before that and have them ride very gently. I think the conclusion that they are trying to trivialize the problem is unfounded. I mean they're riding two bikes, they got some of the problem reproduced on both, and they're going out again tomorrow??? My dealer basically told me to pay him $75/hr to ride my bike around all day or **** off.

 

[Medium Al]

Then they did not duplicate the problem. Which, as I have pointed out in another thread, the severity depends heavily on how hard you ride the bike. The good news is they reproduced a small version of the problem identically on two differnt bikes at the same point in space-time, and saw the problem go away on restarting. Now just tell them to ride less agressively through the exact same route and they'll no doubt discover what we all know. Which is it will get one of us killed under not-to-hard-to-imagine circumstances.
If you haven't already please look at the thread "Attention Yamha People: How to Duplicate Surging Problem" or something like that.

Al, Yamaha has decided to ignore this hoping it will go away. It's not widespread and they've apparently decided the cost of admitting the problem far exceeds the cost of ignoring it. I've only seen two people say they wouldn't buy another Yamaha because of it - and they make what? ... maybe $1,000 profit per bike vs the cost of replacing $1,000 ECU's on thousands of bikes? I think TruWreck submitted multiple occurances on NHTSA complaints. You add those to mine and Yamaha has already dismissed maybe 25% of the formal complaints against them just by testing our bikes and reporting no problems. A couple more selective test rides and they can claim that any remaining complaints will also prove to be "unsubstantiated". They don't have to prove us all wrong, just a reasonable sampling.

By the way, they drove the route I prescribed: I-90 at 70mph speed limit. Do you really think they only experienced a "mild" case on both bikes, both trips? They're counting on the fact that the vast majority of owners with this problem won't do anything moe than just complain here.

Chris: This is the dealer that Yamaha Customer Service told me to take the bike to. BTW, how's your 2007 FJR running?

DPS,

You may be right, we'll just have to wait and see. But consider the following: one person goes down, gets badly injured or killed, who posted up here or at NHTSA, and your liability cost assessment to Yamaha goes up by 5 or 6 orders of magnitude. In the mean time, I think it is better to try to get as much information to them as possible and recognize they are a giant company that's experiencing similar problems, or at least FI-related, on their entire line of bikes. The other thing I keep thinking about is remembering how much cars sucked when they all had to meet new emissions standards, and how long it took before they got serious about it and solved the performance and drivability. Honda, Suzuki, BMW motorcycles all benefit from having car divisions that have dealt with these issues already. Yamaha does not.

 

[DPS]

Al, I think they're putting an effort into my case because I have been raising constant hell with the dealer and Yamaha (I'm retired with too much free time). He didn't say they'd try again tomorrow until I said their results were unacceptable. They have plenty of bikes they can test, they didn't really need mine - unless me and TruWreck are the only two people that are pissed off enough to let them drive our bikes.

If tomorrow doesn't yield results then my next move will be to pay the nearby Kawi dealer to test the bike and record their findings. At this point, I just want my money back.

 

[christhemaster]

This is the dealer that Yamaha Customer Service told me to take the bike to. BTW, how's your 2007 FJR running?

Yamaha will direct you to the closest dealer to your home and mine runs just like yours. I'm waiting.

 

[greg97224]

Call them up. Tell them to ride conservatively at very light throttle. RPM's between 2500-4000. Ride it like they own it and just bought it and read the manual on break-in procedures.

I think you're missing the point. He said both bikes began surging at about the same location on BOTH trips up the mountain. Both bikes stopped surging after they were turned off and back on. What he said was that the surging they experienced was not "abnormal" nor did they consider driving the bikes at slow speeds (while surging) to be dangerous.

They duplicated the problem, they're just saying it's not a problem and the bikes are not unsafe.

This seems consistent with TruWreck's experience with a different dealer. The Yamaha rep was present during a test of his bike and found no problem. My bike was supposed to have been tested last Friday by the dealer alone, yet it was postponed until today when the rep accompanied the dealer. Both TruWreck and I filed NHTSA complaints and both of us had our bikes tested by a Yamaha rep at Yamaha's expense. It's as though they are going down the list of NHTSA complaints in an effort to disprove them, one by one. This how they can continue to disregard the formal complaints being registered.

Has anyone else had their bikes test driven?

This is really beginning to smell bad. I have no doubt they'll call again tomorrow and tell me everything's fine with the bike.

When they get the bikes as far up the hill as they are going to go, have them come to a complet stop and make a left hand turn in front of traffic. The servivor will be a believer. That is what almost happen to me.

 

[UweRoss]

they make what? ... maybe $1,000 profit per bike vs the cost of replacing $1,000 ECU's on thousands of bikes?

An ECU doesn't cost Yamaha anywhere near $1000. Their cost is far closer to $100 than $1000.

-Uwe-

 

[CALSI]

they make what? ... maybe $1,000 profit per bike vs the cost of replacing $1,000 ECU's on thousands of bikes?

An ECU doesn't cost Yamaha anywhere near $1000. Their cost is far closer to $100 than $1000.

-Uwe-

I would gladly pay $100.00 out of pocket to get the problem fixed. I filed my complaint with NHTSA and called Yamaha to have a file started. Will follow up with Yamaha in writing and go back to Dealer to have bike checked. Yamaha stated that it's important that the Dealer call the product specialist prior to making any repairs. Also, I am going to make sure that on each invoice it reads "Customer states biking surging at higher altitude". I have just started my file and knowing the paper trail needed for the next year in order to follow "Lemon Law" rules here in California. I am one who rides within 3500 to 4000 rpms, I will start riding at higher rpms upon reading these post and see if that helps. My comfort level will determine my next move with the bike. I do believe that Yamaha has too much at stake and will not ignore complaints being filed. Remember it's all about the money and a good reputation is worth more money in the long run. I for one will write a thank you letter when Yamaha acknowledges and fix the problem. I would also buy another Yamaha when I know the Company will stand by it's product.

Karen

 

[ELP_JC]

The ECU just needs to be reflashed. Much less than even $100 IMO.

I think temperature and humidity might have to do something with the surging. Just like 'base' altitude. My bike was bucking like a bronco riding sedately or aggresively when I climbed from 4K to 9K', about 25% humidity, but in the 90s. But as somebody mentioned, I won't let a dealer ride my bike 300 miles to go and duplicate the problem; no sense on dropping my bike at dealership. And for that reason I haven't filed a complaint with the NHTSA because Yamaha would say why I'm filing a complaint without even dropping bike at dealership. A catch 22 situation.

 

[CALSI]

The ECU just needs to be reflashed. Much less than even $100 IMO.
I think temperature and humidity might have to do something with the surging. Just like 'base' altitude. My bike was bucking like a bronco riding sedately or aggresively when I climbed from 4K to 9K', about 25% humidity, but in the 90s. But as somebody mentioned, I won't let a dealer ride my bike 300 miles to go and duplicate the problem; no sense on dropping my bike at dealership. And for that reason I haven't filed a complaint with the NHTSA because Yamaha would say why I'm filing a complaint without even dropping bike at dealership. A catch 22 situation.

Nope, they don't get to ride my bike either. If they want to follow along that's fine. Either find the problem on one of their own bikes or through diagnostics (spelling) but, there is just too much info just from this forum to have to keep riding the bikes to see what the problem is. I would have enough faith that they already know what the word surging means. If they want to meet me at the top of a hill with their equipment I'm for that as well

 

[PA1195]

Carefully reread Ed Sorbo's post #36 from a month ago...he's apparently an experienced Yamaha Service manager who test drove a FJR up, down, sideways, slow and at speed...what I still get from his post, that, by the way, many later took exception to (including myself privately, but only because of the RPM restrictions = there's no Yellow caution arc on the tach), was not to drive the FJR slow and keep rpms over 3K as all bikes now run lean...he did experience surging of some form he stated, but apparently only when driven out of his recommended envelope and under the listed conditions (see the post for details)...It now appears to me he tried to warn and provide input to the Forum about avoiding the issue...he also may have tried to help in his own way as a Yamaha employee trained in these matters, but as one aware of the limitations of the Yamaha Corporate structure...I believe he's the only Yamaha employee to formally identify himself and respond to this thread, a sad statement indeed about their customer service and tech support policies.

Now a month has passed, many are upset for legitimate personal reasons, and Yamaha is, as noted, apparently discrediting the complaints and possibly picking them off one by one like hapless groundhogs.

I believe Ed's posted observations bear out the fact that surging does exist, but can be at least minimised by operating under his recommended limitations (operating over 3000 rpms, for example)...the public statement offered by one of their professional employees on this Forum I'll take as a reflection of their best public technical position at the time, and should be enough to convince Yamaha Management staff that there are operating limitations to the late model FJR that they should either address and fix, or at the very least notify the owner on how they can best be avoided in these emission conscious times, as Ed described...I also believe his observations, along with Medium Al's, should be handed in writing to whoever tests the motorcycle as a road test guide...if possible, someone from this Forum needs to go along as an observer to ensure that they do what they say they did, and follow through with whatever guidelines this group may provide...if the surging issue surfaces, then Yamaha will have learned something and can address it.

I don't have a surging issue where I live, but respect the concerns of those that do...'nuff said.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[UK-keith]

The Serv Mgr just called and said he and a Yamaha rep took my bike and another up in the mountains, He said both bikes exibited "some slight surging" up near the pass but nothing "unusual". They had no problems starting out in first gear and said the "minor" surging went away after shut-off and restartin the bikes. He said they'd drive them up again tomorrow.
Now, does anybody here still think they are going to "duplicate" the problem?

Haven't they just proved there is a problem by saying the surging went away with a restart, surely if it was 'normal' behavier it would be there all the time. Based on this statement alone are we not only discussing the severity of the problem encountered buy various people and not is there a problem.

Off topic but its like a joke I heard once. A man offered a woman a million dollars to sleep with him, she said yes, he then offered one dollar and she said no and she asked what did he think she was to which he replied we have already established that and now we are just working on the price.

 

[Medium Al]

The Serv Mgr just called and said he and a Yamaha rep took my bike and another up in the mountains, He said both bikes exibited "some slight surging" up near the pass but nothing "unusual". They had no problems starting out in first gear and said the "minor" surging went away after shut-off and restartin the bikes. He said they'd drive them up again tomorrow.
Now, does anybody here still think they are going to "duplicate" the problem?

Haven't they just proved there is a problem by saying the surging went away with a restart, surely if it was 'normal' behavier it would be there all the time. Based on this statement alone are we not only discussing the severity of the problem encountered buy various people and not is there a problem.

Exactly.

 

[greg97224]

DPS, you might have them pull off to the side of the road when they get as high as they are going to go and leave the motor running, then have them start going again, that always causes a problem for me.

 

[v65]

Haven't they just proved there is a problem by saying the surging went away with a restart, surely if it was 'normal' behavier it would be there all the time. Based on this statement alone are we not only discussing the severity of the problem encountered buy various people and not is there a problem.

That and as I understand it some of the bikes have more severe surge problems than others (based on VIN, the early '07's being the suspected culprits). Perhaps a comparison ride by a Yamaha rep is in order?