CALSI
Active member
Thanks for the input, I'll attach it to my letter to Yamaha Corp.
Karen.
P.S. Guess that means I need to go for a ride....darn
2007 Altitude Surging Problem - Members Wanted
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Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
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Karen.
P.S. Guess that means I need to go for a ride....darn
ELP_JC
Well-known member
As a comment, this next quote comes from Yamaha's Assembly Manual for our FJR1300. It's item 'F', on page 16. It implies TB synch needs to be checked as part of PDI, but I could be wrong; you be the judge:
"F. ADJUSTING THE ENGINE IDLING SPEED
NOTE: Prior to adjusting the engine idling speed, the throttle body synchronization should be adjusted properly, the air filter should be clean, and the engine should have adequate compression.
1. Start the engine and let it warm up for several minutes.
2. Attach: engine tachometer (to the spark plug lead of cylinder #1) (Inductive tachometer YU-08036- B) ."
I don't think any dealer is following the assembly manual's PDI instructions; not even close.
Oh, and folks, you can do whatever the hell you want on your machine as long as it's done right; no justification necessary, especially to a dealer employee. Most of us will always do a better job than a dealer just due to the simple fact we devote the time needed to do the job right (not just meet a spec), and know how to read a service manual. I wouldn't let a dealer do something I can do even for free, for the above reasons. Always document what you do to your bike, back it up with receipts when needed, and you're golden. Later gang.
JC
"F. ADJUSTING THE ENGINE IDLING SPEED
NOTE: Prior to adjusting the engine idling speed, the throttle body synchronization should be adjusted properly, the air filter should be clean, and the engine should have adequate compression.
1. Start the engine and let it warm up for several minutes.
2. Attach: engine tachometer (to the spark plug lead of cylinder #1) (Inductive tachometer YU-08036- B) ."
I don't think any dealer is following the assembly manual's PDI instructions; not even close.
Oh, and folks, you can do whatever the hell you want on your machine as long as it's done right; no justification necessary, especially to a dealer employee. Most of us will always do a better job than a dealer just due to the simple fact we devote the time needed to do the job right (not just meet a spec), and know how to read a service manual. I wouldn't let a dealer do something I can do even for free, for the above reasons. Always document what you do to your bike, back it up with receipts when needed, and you're golden. Later gang.
JC
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Mick
Member
BBQ
Well-known member
TruWrecks
Still chewing thru the Restraints
Keone
Well-known member
Man.... I so disappointed with this....My first BRAND NEW bike...... I posted a few pages back having this problem. At first it seemed that I was only seeing the surging after about a 3000 foot elevation change, and was thinking "its a pain but I don't normally ride in the mountains, so I can wait for a fix". After reading some comments about the problem and methods to reproduce it, I can now duplicate the surging in a 1000 foot elevation change EVERYTIME and this is unacceptable. I just want my money back.
Now I have another issue I need some advice with. I bought my bike from a dealer in Utah (Steven Wade Powersports.... Don't ever go there they suck) to save a few bucks and I live in Las Vegas. It sounds to me, from reading here that most of you are have problems getting assistance with this from the dealer you purchased your bike from. I cannot drive 3+ hours to see a dealer doesn't return my calls concerning other simpler issues. I could try to look for a dealer here in Vegas but there must be about 5 FJR in Las Vegas, I'm afraid to take my bike to a local dealer here for an oil change. It is unlikely that any of the dealers/techs here have much experience with the FJR and being that I didn't buy locally I highly doubt they'd be unbiased about that.
So any advice is welcomed.
I love the FJR lines but I'm really feeling my girlfriend was right...
her advise the day I bought my FJR
"if your curious about the Concourse, just wait you can buy the FJR later"
Now why didn't I listen to those words of wisdom
K
Now I have another issue I need some advice with. I bought my bike from a dealer in Utah (Steven Wade Powersports.... Don't ever go there they suck) to save a few bucks and I live in Las Vegas. It sounds to me, from reading here that most of you are have problems getting assistance with this from the dealer you purchased your bike from. I cannot drive 3+ hours to see a dealer doesn't return my calls concerning other simpler issues. I could try to look for a dealer here in Vegas but there must be about 5 FJR in Las Vegas, I'm afraid to take my bike to a local dealer here for an oil change. It is unlikely that any of the dealers/techs here have much experience with the FJR and being that I didn't buy locally I highly doubt they'd be unbiased about that.
So any advice is welcomed.
I love the FJR lines but I'm really feeling my girlfriend was right...
her advise the day I bought my FJR
"if your curious about the Concourse, just wait you can buy the FJR later"
Now why didn't I listen to those words of wisdom
K
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BBQ
Well-known member
ONE MORE BIKE
Well-known member
Keone
"I just want my money back".
"So any advice is welcomed".
I live in Florida where there is no elevation change, but when I went up to NC and TN in May I found one of my two FJRs surging and hesitating at altitude.
It returned to normal once we got down to lower altitude in Georgia.
You cannot get your money back from the dealer unless you follow the lemon laws, which require you to give the dealer and manufacturer an adequately documented opportunity to repair it.
Your only options are to go through the process with Yamaha and dance to their music, or trade it in for a different but similar bike (which may not be a surger), or switch manufacturers entirely if you need to keep on riding comfortably.
Fred H, recently got a new Kawasaki Concours. Ask him about it. He has recently returned to this forum, or you can find him on the gl1800riders forum.
I traded in my FJRs for Hayabusas because my two teenage sons also ride daily a basic mode of transport.
I also love the lines and design of the FJR and will buy again when its fixed, but my wellbeing is more important than loyalty to a manufacturer.
Good luck.
"I just want my money back".
"So any advice is welcomed".
I live in Florida where there is no elevation change, but when I went up to NC and TN in May I found one of my two FJRs surging and hesitating at altitude.
It returned to normal once we got down to lower altitude in Georgia.
You cannot get your money back from the dealer unless you follow the lemon laws, which require you to give the dealer and manufacturer an adequately documented opportunity to repair it.
Your only options are to go through the process with Yamaha and dance to their music, or trade it in for a different but similar bike (which may not be a surger), or switch manufacturers entirely if you need to keep on riding comfortably.
Fred H, recently got a new Kawasaki Concours. Ask him about it. He has recently returned to this forum, or you can find him on the gl1800riders forum.
I traded in my FJRs for Hayabusas because my two teenage sons also ride daily a basic mode of transport.
I also love the lines and design of the FJR and will buy again when its fixed, but my wellbeing is more important than loyalty to a manufacturer.
Good luck.
BBQ
Well-known member
DPS
Member
Having a defect that cannot be fixed by the manufacturer is the ultimate definition of a "lemon". If you're in a state that has an applicable lemon law and your dealer doesn't know how to fix your bike then have them say that on the repair order. If they admit there currently is no fix, you don't have to "jump through all the hoops" but you do have to officially put them on notice to fix it or pay. Find an attorney that specializes in lemon law and give them a call.
Keep in mind, it's not the dealer that has to pay under the lemon law, it's the manufacturer. The dealer could care less.
Cello II
Well-known member
He knows I'll see him fist thing Monday .Thought you would like to know there is another one! I expect to work it out with the dealer, Yamaha etc. It is a great bike otherwise.
PA1195
Well-known member
From the post above:
"Questions:
===================================
Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?
Yes, it finally did...for about twenty continuous miles when returning from Tahoe at @1700ft to 200 ft. Mileage showed 14.2 mpg while surging. then20, or 35, then back to 43mpg !!"
Hello all...FWIW this is at least the second post I've read on this Forum that noted that the instantaneous fuel mileage reading dropped while surging...note this the next time your bike surges and see if it does the same thing and post...does this mean that too much fuel is being delivered to the engine? (= low MPG)...and how does Yamaha measure MPG?...not directly from flow (there's no fuel flow sensor)...I believe it's from estimated "should be" load-based fuel flow from intake pressure/TBS input plus engine rpm and other sensor data (engine and air temp, O2 reading), plus a speed estimate obtained from the rear wheel sensor as interpreted by the ECU, and the result gets displayed on the meter...that's my guess at least.
This would indicate to me that the op is opening the throttle or whatever at some point, the rising intake air pressure and the increasing TBS voltage data plus other inputs says give her more fuel, but due to surging/stumbling caused by the improper F/A ratio (too rich or lean) the speed doesn't rise accordingly and increase properly as it should according to the ECU's correction table that's based upon the rearwheel speed sensor, so the estimated fuel MPG goes low...it's like more fuel called for by the ECU vs. too low speed for that combination on the flow map = low estimated mileage as I see it...(?)
But is it a too rich or too lean condition causing surging?...is the engine getting the proper fuel called for at that elevation, or more likely too much or too little based upon poorly generated elevation/pressure data?...remember the sensors used for determining the MPG and place your bet, as something is obviously wrong with the F/A ratio or injection timing, or the ignition timing is off.
It would seem an easy question to answer, about the F/A ratio real-time at least, with a wide band O2 sensor that's able to read a wide range of exhaust O2 values combined with a data head like Dynojet's Wide Band Commander, an add-on option to the PCIII that offers to display the F/A ratio...somebody needs to put one on or something similar and record it...and so should Yamaha with all their bux, equipment, engineers, and programmers on staff...and I'll bet they've already done it, as it could easily be duplicated with a test mule bike on a dyno by varying the various engine/atmospheric sensor outputs...they have the expertise to do just that.
If Yamaha still says that there's no problem, yet unexpected F/A ratios associated with surging can be documented by someone, then that means to me that there is something real that they can and should fix...thoughts please and just trying to help.
Gary in Fairbanks
"Questions:
===================================
Has your bike surged at altitude? If so, have you noticed any pattern as to a particular altitude the surging occurs?
Yes, it finally did...for about twenty continuous miles when returning from Tahoe at @1700ft to 200 ft. Mileage showed 14.2 mpg while surging. then20, or 35, then back to 43mpg !!"
Hello all...FWIW this is at least the second post I've read on this Forum that noted that the instantaneous fuel mileage reading dropped while surging...note this the next time your bike surges and see if it does the same thing and post...does this mean that too much fuel is being delivered to the engine? (= low MPG)...and how does Yamaha measure MPG?...not directly from flow (there's no fuel flow sensor)...I believe it's from estimated "should be" load-based fuel flow from intake pressure/TBS input plus engine rpm and other sensor data (engine and air temp, O2 reading), plus a speed estimate obtained from the rear wheel sensor as interpreted by the ECU, and the result gets displayed on the meter...that's my guess at least.
This would indicate to me that the op is opening the throttle or whatever at some point, the rising intake air pressure and the increasing TBS voltage data plus other inputs says give her more fuel, but due to surging/stumbling caused by the improper F/A ratio (too rich or lean) the speed doesn't rise accordingly and increase properly as it should according to the ECU's correction table that's based upon the rearwheel speed sensor, so the estimated fuel MPG goes low...it's like more fuel called for by the ECU vs. too low speed for that combination on the flow map = low estimated mileage as I see it...(?)
But is it a too rich or too lean condition causing surging?...is the engine getting the proper fuel called for at that elevation, or more likely too much or too little based upon poorly generated elevation/pressure data?...remember the sensors used for determining the MPG and place your bet, as something is obviously wrong with the F/A ratio or injection timing, or the ignition timing is off.
It would seem an easy question to answer, about the F/A ratio real-time at least, with a wide band O2 sensor that's able to read a wide range of exhaust O2 values combined with a data head like Dynojet's Wide Band Commander, an add-on option to the PCIII that offers to display the F/A ratio...somebody needs to put one on or something similar and record it...and so should Yamaha with all their bux, equipment, engineers, and programmers on staff...and I'll bet they've already done it, as it could easily be duplicated with a test mule bike on a dyno by varying the various engine/atmospheric sensor outputs...they have the expertise to do just that.
If Yamaha still says that there's no problem, yet unexpected F/A ratios associated with surging can be documented by someone, then that means to me that there is something real that they can and should fix...thoughts please and just trying to help.
Gary in Fairbanks
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CALSI
Active member
I'm not sure if you are the one that mentioned August Cycle World. I purchased it and it does indicate a possible emission control issues especially with California bikes. I attached the article to my letter to Yamaha.
Karen
Hi Karen,
No... this is my first offering re: a mag offering.
Glad you included it with your docs!
Gotta have the "guns" loaded when dealing with some outfits.
I just thought it would be a good thing for some of the more knowledgeable folks to hook Cycle World up to this thread and/or details.
Lennie
No... this is my first offering re: a mag offering.
Glad you included it with your docs!
Gotta have the "guns" loaded when dealing with some outfits.
I just thought it would be a good thing for some of the more knowledgeable folks to hook Cycle World up to this thread and/or details.
Lennie
Glenn
Well-known member
I have an 07 with about 4700 miles and up until yesterday never had an issue with surging. Come to think of it it was not an issue until I read the post. Karma?
I live in Hermosa, CA. We ride a lot around the Canyons near Malibu, Angeles Forest and Santa Barbara. I have never experienced the sudden loss of power and then the surge until yesterday. It was potentially very dangerous because the canyons are very twisty and any mistake could result in launching yourself off a cliff. Most areas don't even have gaurd rails. In a couple of instances I lost power going into a turn and twisting the throttle more resulted in a burst of power I did not expect. The climb was from sea level to probably 1000 + feet. I was at the back of a group of 5, none of which were FJR type bikes, so their speed was pretty constant and conservative at best. If I dropped back picked up the rpm's and shifted more often the surging seemed to go away. It seems the steady pace and lower speed was the problem. I tested my theory on the way back and led the group and went out in front and rode to my comfort zone shifting, speeding up and slowing down and the surging never occured. Very strange. I am going to the WFO ride so this should be a good test. I will be talking to my dealer for sure.
I live in Hermosa, CA. We ride a lot around the Canyons near Malibu, Angeles Forest and Santa Barbara. I have never experienced the sudden loss of power and then the surge until yesterday. It was potentially very dangerous because the canyons are very twisty and any mistake could result in launching yourself off a cliff. Most areas don't even have gaurd rails. In a couple of instances I lost power going into a turn and twisting the throttle more resulted in a burst of power I did not expect. The climb was from sea level to probably 1000 + feet. I was at the back of a group of 5, none of which were FJR type bikes, so their speed was pretty constant and conservative at best. If I dropped back picked up the rpm's and shifted more often the surging seemed to go away. It seems the steady pace and lower speed was the problem. I tested my theory on the way back and led the group and went out in front and rode to my comfort zone shifting, speeding up and slowing down and the surging never occured. Very strange. I am going to the WFO ride so this should be a good test. I will be talking to my dealer for sure.
T-man
Member
Just wanted to let it be known that the surge problem showed up on me yesterday with no change in altitude. I'm at about 2000'. I was going for a short ride into town and it started surging, bucking on accel. I pulled the clutch and turned the key off twice before it went away. It happened again on the way back. I was pulling out at a stop sign and almost threw my son off the back!!! I rolled on the throttle and nothing happened. Before I realized what was happening the thing surged like I had dumped the clutch. I just got off the phone with my local dealer. Of course they were too busy to talk. They are to call me back. BTW I found out that Virginia has 18 months to get a lemon taken care of. Hope it doesn't lead to that. Later.
TruWrecks
Still chewing thru the Restraints
OK new surgers, please send me a message (Privately) with the last 6 of your VIN and State. I need to add you to the list.
Thanks
Thanks
Fred H.
Well-known member
I spoke to the lead motorcycle investigator at NHTSA ODI today and they are monitoring this problem.
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