A "GT" version of the FJR??

[oldryder]

thought about this a lot on a recent road trip. I believe Yamaha has a real opportunity to make a dent in Honda's gold wing market dominance if they play their cards right.

A full dress touring bike doesn't have to weigh 800 pounds or more and IMHO it shouldn't. Given the FJR is already the best sport tourer (for a bunch of reasons) it could provide a suitable base for an all up touring bike.

Honda seems stuck on a track that "more is better" giving them an ever heavier and more expensive bike. as their user base ages and has to pay more and more for fuel a lighter, easier to handle, simpler, and cheaper touring bike is going to be what the market wants.

Yam could have 2 FJR versions, a "ST" (apologies to Honda) which would be the current bike and a "GT" which would be the competitor to the gold wing.

changes I'd suggest:

1. motor upgrade, mostly eliminate the buzz. No heavier, preferably lighter. overall FJR engine is fine with respect to power and torque. of course more is better assuming they can do that without additional weight.

2. add a 6th gear (mostly for mpg gains)

3. replace driveshaft with a belt (assuming hp requirements can be met). cost, weight reduction & simplicity.

4. have 2 sizes of detachable bags; regular and "jumbo". lose the "need a key to open" feature.

5. The "GT" would need more space for rider & passenger. (could this be done on the same frame?) This is the one area where my gold wing is substantially better than the FJR.

6. The "GT" would need fully integrated electronics with friendly connections for user add-ons. (not a complete rape job like on the gold wings)

7. The "GT" should have handlebar/peg/ride height adjustability for short people.

my 5 cents worth.

 

[ionbeam]

Been there, done that. V-Max V-4 powered Venture Royale Touring Bike.

 

[SkooterG]

Good luck!

 

[user 213]

While you have some interesting ideas, and as ionbeam pointed out, a suitable engine exists already, I'm not seeing some of your points as things the majority of touring riders would prefer.

6th gear for mpg? That has nothing to do with mpg. The FJR already gets significantly better mpg than a Wing does, (or the Venture). Rowing through another gear won't change that, and with the current trans design, you'd likely see no change in top end ratio, just another gear to shift through to get there.

Replace drive shaft for simplicity? Have you ever swapped out a wheel on a belt drive bike? Doesn't sound like it. A maintenance free shaft is preferred over an easily damaged belt. Don't think belts are easily damaged? Let me take you on some Idaho interstate with construction zones. I'll even send someone back to get you when I reach the next, not very close, major town. Then you can pay a dealer to install a new belt. Belts can be very good, but have too many limitations for the average touring rider that wants to cover miles stress free.

No key needed to open bags? :rofl: Don't think a lack of security will go over too big with most riders. What are you thinking?

Define "complete rape job" on the Wing. Aside from the GPS not allowing input during riding, adding things on is about the same as any other bike.

Currently Yamaha believes the Touring market wants cruisers. The V-4 powered Venture has nearly as much torque as the FJR, but much less Hp.

Not trying to slam you, just wondering what the heck you're thinking.

 

[HYCLE]

4. have 2 sizes of detachable bags; regular and "jumbo". lose the "need a key to open" feature.

I think I solved your detachable bag issue. They have been tested at 120 mph without a problem,

and they double as arm rests for Terri. :lol:

 

[oldryder]

appreciate comments:

re: the belt drive; you're right I've never changed one on a bike; I have changed them in industrial applications and it was always pretty easy. I've just never liked the weight and complexity of a driveshaft & gearbox and it's certain a bike could be engineered to make changing the belt easy. (in a recent discussion with a victory vision owner he commented on how simple it was on his bike)

6th gear for mpg assumes the engineers would use a slightly higher final drive ratio and engineer the engines performance curves to take advantage of it. On every bike that I've ever raised the final drive ratio (admittedly all chain drive) the bike got better mileage on x-country trips even without engine optimization. think of it as an overdrive.

no key to open the bags doesn't mean you can't lock them; it just means they can be left unlocked and still be securely closed.

complete rape job on the wing was the extraordinarily high price for a dealer installed CB, upwards of $1000 if I remember correctly. also a few hundred for an MP3 input.

your comment about yamaha believing the touring market wants cruisers seems correct; the point of my post is that I think there is a market niche, perhaps a big one, for a simpler, LIGHTER, touring bike and that the FJR could make a very good starting point.

when the new VMAX came out I thought immediately about its potential as the base for a touring bike. However, it's so heavy, even as a cruiser, thats it's hard to imaging it could suffice as the base machine for a bike that would be lighter than a gold wing.

 

[user 213]

Because the belt must interact with the primary drive, most, (not all), belt drive changes require significant disassembly to accomplish. All the more fun with a wet primary drive. Usually new gasket are beneficial, if not required. The Victory and some Buels are exceptions to this. Are any Star bikes belt drive? If not, it would be a completely new drive system for Yamaha, which pretty much rules it out for this economy.

I understood what you wanted from 6th gear. I offered what you'd get. The reason for this is fairly simple. You don't use most of the rpm band when cruising now, turning 3500-5000, depending on the limits in your area. There's really no reason for an overdrive on the FJR motor.

Ok, options on the bag locks are always good. It's moot to me, but I can see your point.

Rape job - That's a Dealer rape there, not a Honda one. Although I grant you, most manufacturers don't do the leg work to allow easy add ons. The FJR has few flat spots on the dash area, for example. Never mind blank plates and aux. fuse locations. Yamaha doesn't seem interested in offering us options to begin with. Not even simple things like color choices.

The FJR is already 650 lbs. I'm afraid that with larger bags, an integrated top box, longer chassis for more passenger room, adjustable foot pegs and some more standard options like CC and Comm, the weight would be right up there with the Wing.

As it is, the suspension is marginal for two up riding and most will upgrade the shock for that now. A true two up Touring bike like you suggest would end up significantly more expensive than the current FJR, IMHO. Likely on par with the cost of a Wing.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Because the belt must interact with the primary drive, most, (not all), belt drive changes require significant disassembly to accomplish.

On the FJR, the front belt pulley could be where the right angle drive gears are (before the driveshaft) -- no interference with primary drive.

Are any Star bikes belt drive? If not, it would be a completely new drive system for Yamaha, which pretty much rules it out for this economy.

Most of the "Star" models are belt-drive (there are a few shaft-drive) -- and some of the belt-driven bikes are much heavier, have bigger engines, and (probably?) more severe torque pulses (than the FJR...).

Then there are all the Yami scooters -- all, belt-driven.

Of course, the scooters are v-belts (to work with CVTs) while the "Star" cruisers have wide/flat toothed-belts.

 

[user 213]

You made me look. There is a mix of belt and shaft. Interesting to me, the V-Max is still shaft. Interesting since the sport oriented guys are usually the ones talking the loudest about the shaft drive's parasitic loss, complexity, etc.

I see no benefits to a Touring bike to have belt drive. Yamaha doesn't have issues with FD failures. The insignificant Hp gains of a belt don't offset the potential for roadside problems, IMO. I see the Star belt drives as purely a marketing issue to sell to HD wanting buyers that can't afford or justify the cost of a HD.

I say all this having owned and ridden a belt drive bike and having had no problems with it. ('05 Road King) But also having to burn vacation time helping buddies on the road with shredding belts or broken belts due primarily to road debris.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I see the Star belt drives as purely a marketing issue to sell to HD wanting buyers that can't afford or justify the cost of a HD.

I don't know ...?

• 2009 Yamaha Royal Star Venture, MSRP = $18,690
• 2009 Harley Davidson Electra Glide Classic, MSRP = $18,990

$300 doesn't seem like much (deal-breaker) in the whole scheme of things?Of course, Yamaha's belt-drive bikes are cheaper (but, Harley has cheaper bikes, too...).

I say all this having owned and ridden a belt drive bike and having had no problems with it. ('05 Road King) But also having to burn vacation time helping buddies on the road with shredding belts or broken belts due primarily to road debris.

Don't forget to include all the BMW "Catastrophic Rear Drive Failures" -- where shaft-driven bikes have ruined many a vacation....

I'm just sayin'.... :huh:

 

[user 213]

I see the Star belt drives as purely a marketing issue to sell to HD wanting buyers that can't afford or justify the cost of a HD.

I don't know ...?

• 2009 Yamaha Royal Star Venture, MSRP = $18,690
• 2009 Harley Davidson Electra Glide Classic, MSRP = $18,990

$300 doesn't seem like much (deal-breaker) in the whole scheme of things?Of course, Yamaha's belt-drive bikes are cheaper (but, Harley has cheaper bikes, too...).

I say all this having owned and ridden a belt drive bike and having had no problems with it. ('05 Road King) But also having to burn vacation time helping buddies on the road with shredding belts or broken belts due primarily to road debris.

Don't forget to include all the BMW "Catastrophic Rear Drive Failures" -- where shaft-driven bikes have ruined many a vacation....

I'm just sayin'.... :huh:

I'd have to be smoking crack to pay that much for a Yamaha cruiser. Just saying.

And we're talking Yamaha here, so while it's certainly true that some other companies have poor shaft drive systems, Yamaha isn't one of them.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

• 2009 Yamaha Royal Star Venture, MSRP = $18,690
• 2009 Harley Davidson Electra Glide Classic, MSRP = $18,990

I say all this having owned and ridden a belt drive bike and having had no problems with it. ('05 Road King)

I'd have to be smoking crack to pay that much for a Yamaha cruiser. Just saying.

OP opined: "I believe Yamaha has a real opportunity to make a dent in Honda's gold wing market dominance if they play their cards right.

A full dress touring bike doesn't have to weigh 800 pounds or more and IMHO it shouldn't. Given the FJR is already the best sport tourer (for a bunch of reasons) it could provide a suitable base for an all up touring bike.

Honda seems stuck on a track that "more is better" giving them an ever heavier and more expensive bike. as their user base ages and has to pay more and more for fuel a lighter, easier to handle, simpler, and cheaper touring bike is going to be what the market wants."

Apparently, you're right? Yamaha's aren't worth the money (but H-Ds, apparently, are....?).

What is it with Yamahas..., poor quality?, bad design?

Why aren't they worth what other bikes are...?

 

[Crash Cash]

Gold Wing has market dominance because it says "Gold Wing" on the tank, just like Harley. You get some big fat chain-smoking retired company VP that wants a (non-HD) bike, and he's gonna buy a 'Wing because he has no clue what's out there.

That's why they're 12,000lbs with enough switches and buttons to impress any stupid goober with money.

You'll pry my shaft drive from my cold dead fingers. I've changed tires on shaft, belt, and chain, and you see which one I bought. Except for BMWs, I've never seen a shaft drive break, even on my beat-ass GS1100GL that had just about everything else break.

 

[user 213]

Apparently, you're right? Yamaha's aren't worth the money (but H-Ds, apparently, are....?).What is it with Yamahas..., poor quality?, bad design?

Why aren't they worth what other bikes are...?

Didn't say I'd pay that much for a HD either! And I didn't. But if goober is going to pay big bucks for cashe, you know where he goes. Doing it better, for less money, is where Yamaha gained market share. I paid $10,500 for my '04 ABS FJR. I frankly could not afford to buy a new FJR today. And wouldn't, if I needed to replace mine. I'd buy a used one.

I'm disappointed in the way pricing has been pushed up on the Japanese bikes, at the same time HD and BMW are dropping prices, trying to get market share back.

Could Yamaha make a lighter weight full on touring bike than the Gold Wing? Sure. Most of the parts are on the shelf. But convincing them there is demand for it is another story. The GL1800 is a pretty good platform, if heavy.

Perhaps more fun than trying to convince manufacturers to build the bikes we want, would be to start a custom coachbuilder company that makes bikes to suite the needs/desires of individuals for a reasonable cost.

 

[oldryder]

good thread.

I can't help but compare todays megaweight touring bikes to my GL1000. The original gold wing had reasonable capacity, was fun to ride (9000 rpm red line), got 40 something mpg, and was reasonably easy to service, and weighed a couple hundred pounds less than todays norm.

I've seriously considered taking a nice GL1000 or GL1100 (the 1200's have alternator reliability issues) and adding electronics via starcom or some equivalent and making a "lightweight" tourer for myself. I'd have to rig some arrangement for Givi bags or the equivalent or find a wing with the samsonite bags which were pretty good.

 

[Silent]

I spent 13 years on that bike, '84 Venture Royal. I miss some of the amenities, but with the farkles on the FJR I don't miss em much.

 

[jjsC6]

Gold Wing has market dominance because it says "Gold Wing" on the tank, just like Harley. You get some big fat chain-smoking retired company VP that wants a (non-HD) bike, and he's gonna buy a 'Wing because he has no clue what's out there.
That's why they're 12,000lbs with enough switches and buttons to impress any stupid goober with money.

You'll pry my shaft drive from my cold dead fingers. I've changed tires on shaft, belt, and chain, and you see which one I bought. Except for BMWs, I've never seen a shaft drive break, even on my beat-ass GS1100GL that had just about everything else break.

I have a Goldwing, and I'm fully aware of what else is out there. I own the bike for one reason - two up riding with my wife. I don't smoke, I'm not fat, I'm not retired, and I'm not a VP. But I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express'.

What exactly is your point?

 

[Gerry.GEG]

Gold Wing has market dominance because it says "Gold Wing" on the tank, just like Harley. You get some big fat chain-smoking retired company VP that wants a (non-HD) bike, and he's gonna buy a 'Wing because he has no clue what's out there.
That's why they're 12,000lbs with enough switches and buttons to impress any stupid goober with money.

You'll pry my shaft drive from my cold dead fingers. I've changed tires on shaft, belt, and chain, and you see which one I bought. Except for BMWs, I've never seen a shaft drive break, even on my beat-ass GS1100GL that had just about everything else break.

I have a Goldwing, and I'm fully aware of what else is out there. I own the bike for one reason - two up riding with my wife. I don't smoke, I'm not fat, I'm not retired, and I'm not a VP. But I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express'.

What exactly is your point?

How funny

Wings serve a specific purpose, best damn tourer period. The FJR is one of the nicest "sport" tourers out there but I don't know if it's the best. I have a suspicion that the ST1300 may be a better LD tourer but I think it's ugly and the FJR is just sexier.

So, I own the FJR for now. Maybe a wing someday but not now because I can't own 3 or 4 bikes right now.

Very funny come back. That's what I love about this forum. We can chide each other and realize that maybe we put our foot-in-mouth. I know I've done it.

 

[fjrb0]

I just love a good fight!

Next question, how come there aint no good sport touring magazines on the local bookstore shelfs?