A question about counter steering

[keithaba]

I've been reading Lee Parks Total Control, and in the section about counter steering he stresses that going into a turn, you should only counter steer with the inside handle bar.

I'm wondering if that applies more to sports bike than the FJR?

As I practiced this yesterday, I would try to use minimal input from the right hand when taking some hard lefts. I noticed that doing so made my steering feel a little less stable.

Just curious about other's opinion. Am I just not used to doing this, or is the steering a little different on an FJR than a sportsbike (due to handle bar angles) and requires a little more use of the opposition hand?

 

[Fencer]

Its the same for all 2 wheeled bikes, even Harleys.

I haven't read Parks yet, but I have read Bargy and Code, and both of them describe how physics applies to the steering of the bike.

 

[v65]

Its the same for all 2 wheeled bikes, even Harleys.
I haven't read Parks yet, but I have read Bargy and Code, and both of them describe how physics applies to the steering of the bike.

That's not what Park's is saying. He assumes you know about countersteering and goes on to add that if you countersteer with both hands (one push, one pull) that your hands unconsciously fight each other. He argues that you should steer with one hand leaving the other lightly resting on the bar. He says you can do this any number of ways, but the method he uses is to use the hand on the inside of the turn (OK it's been a year since I read it, maybe I have some details wrong).

The answer for me is yes. As soon as I read it I knew he was right in my case. I have been practicing this technique for the last year and I find myself going through turns a lot smoother. I'm taking his course this summer, hopefully they can reinforce the book.

 

[uctofeej]

To answer your original question, one-handed steering does apply to the feej.

I've been wondering about countersteering myself, but in a little different way. I noticed my tendency is to pull back with the outside hand rather than push with the inside. It just feels more natural and stable to me. The inside hand rests -- more or less -- so it doesn't counteract the other. My question: Is there any reason the push should be used instead of pull?

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Just read that last week. He basically restates what we teach in the Basic Rider Course: press left, go left; press right, go right. He stresses pressing with the inside and NOT pulling on the outside so that, as v65 said, your hands are not fighting with each other.

Fencer is also right: countersteering applies to ALL bikes. The problem is that many riders don't know the concept and even fewer understand it. So when they find themselves entering a curve too hot, instead of pressing harder on the inside bar, the think they need to press on the outside bar, which straightens the bike and they run off the road :blink:

If you're having trouble "feeling" it on the Feej, as you're riding in a straight line at speed (above 10-15 mph), practice a short slalom....left, right, left, right....using the press, press on the grip in the direction you want the bike to go. You'll find it's MUCH more comfortable to make those steering inputs with JUST the inside grip rather than using both or the outside one.

Always a good topic of discussion.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

My question: Is there any reason the push should be used instead of pull?

How comfortable and controlled is your shifting in a large sweeping right-hand curve as you're pulling on that left grip?? It's awkward for me to even think about sqeezing the clutch lever as I'm pulling on the left hand grip :blink:

By PRESSING, your fingers are still free to use the clutch and/or brake lever (with all four fingers).

 

[wfooshee]

I was just going to post the same thing ^^^^: the MSF course teaches to press on the inside bar. Basic turn procedure is slow, look, press, roll: Slow for the turn, look into the turn, press the inside handlebar, and gently roll on the throttle to get a little acceleration through the turn.

They even go so far as to insist on a straight arm on the inside bar. Kinda tough if you're hugging a tank, but pretty feasible on the Eff Jay Are.

 

[JimLor]

Well said by all. I find that one way to see just how much you normally impede turning is to purposely let your outside arm go absolutely limp. Pretty impressive just how quickly the FJR will turn when one arm isn't hindering the other. Just to mix things up, I'll sometimes let my inside arm go limp and pull vice push - works just as well, but I find it's easier to control with the inside arm.

It really is amazing just how you can screw yourself over by tensing on the bars. I rode back from the Boone, NC EOM at night. Near home I was on a couple of two lane backroads that didn't have white lines on the outside of the lane. There were a couple of times where I would sworn someone clamped the bars so they wouldn't move! It was all me - very tense because I couldn't see the road well and couldn't see thru turns...scary but very instructive.

I've read Parks (and took the class), Code, Eisentach (sp), and my opinion the least helpful of them all - Pridmore and each of them talks about countersteering in one way or another. Pridmore, my opinion, is the biggest fan of using all means to steer the bike - countersterring, weight inside peg, press outside leg inboard, and probably something else I forgot - remembered, shift your weight to the inside. In my humble opinion you ought to try them all and then use what you find works best for you. The fun is in experimenting.

 

[jekirby]

Has to do with the geometry of the two wheels to the road supported by Newton's laws. As stated above, applies to all two wheeled vehicle. Sounds counter (no pun) intuitive, but if you ride a bike then you do it instinctivly without thinking about. As I have always have heard it "push with your left hand--go left. push with your right hand--go right.

Edit--Also as stated above, when someone gets in over their head in a turn, the natural reaction is usually to do the wrong thing and steer away from the hazard---then yardsale. Before skin cancer limited my outdoor activities, I used to white water kayak. One principle used was to bend your head towards the water to finish an eskimo roll or to avoid rolling in the first place. THis had to do with cg and body position, but one example of having to teach youself to do exactly the opposite of what instinct is telling you.

 

[keithaba]

It makes sense that you push to let your fingers be free. I've always used counter steering, but I think I've usually used input on both bars in the turns.

It's probably just that I am trying something new, and don't feel 100% comfortable.

I did hit some turns last night in which I had good balance, and also really working on looking completely through the turn. I realised that sometimes I "over" scan the immediate surface in the turn because of my gravel encournters. It can be hard to find a medium in which you still scan the surface directly ahead of you, but also look through the turn all the way.

When I hit the turns just right, I could just feel how smooth it felt. I feel that I am a pretty decent rider, those who have ridden with me can attest that I can keep up the pace. After working on some of these drills though, it is amazing how much room for improvement there is and how I feel like I know nothing about riding!

Last night was one of those rides where you think, "This is why I ride! It just doesn't get much better than this!"

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

"This is why I ride! It just doesn't get much better than this!"

Amen, my brother :yahoo:

 

[Zorlac]

Some light reading on the topic.

https://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pub/p...teerBikeAJP.PDF

 

[v65]

Some light reading on the topic.https://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pub/p...teerBikeAJP.PDF

"The appealing notion that gyroscopic

forces are central to bike behavior, often repeated in

papers3,13 and textbooks,14 is incorrect." bottom page 658

Great, now I have to read that in more detail. Catch me in a month.

 

[Taff]

I've been reading Lee Parks Total Control, and in the section about counter steering he stresses that going into a turn, you should only counter steer with the inside handle bar.
I'm wondering if that applies more to sports bike than the FJR?

As I practiced this yesterday, I would try to use minimal input from the right hand when taking some hard lefts. I noticed that doing so made my steering feel a little less stable.

Just curious about other's opinion. Am I just not used to doing this, or is the steering a little different on an FJR than a sportsbike (due to handle bar angles) and requires a little more use of the opposition hand?

And an easier way is to apply "foot pressure" on the peg of intended turn, for example; left turn, left peg foot pressure.

Most riders do this "counter steering" without thinking.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

How comfortable and controlled is your shifting in a large sweeping right-hand curve as you're pulling on that left grip?? It's awkward for me to even think about sqeezing the clutch lever as I'm pulling on the left hand grip :blink: By PRESSING, your fingers are still free to use the clutch and/or brake lever (with all four fingers).

"Ideally", there should be constant (at least, small) acceleration through the curve. Any shifting or braking serves to unsettle the suspension and 'muddy' the cornering process. Gear selection (clutching) would ideally be done before corner entry -- when transitionining from approach speed to entry speed. Also, judging the proper entry speed may alleviate the need for any braking (in the turn).

When not using the clutch or brake levers, the hands should, ideally, be wrapped around the grips.

Just a 'topic for discussion'.....

 

[FJRBluesman]

After many years of riding most people pick up on these subtle nuances without even realizing it.

If you tried to think of these things in a panic situation you'd probably not remember or possibly do the opposite.

Code teaches and others about the lean a great deal. You can get your bike to turn by the pressure you put on the foot peg side that you want to turn into. No hands really needed.

BTW, The gyroscopic effect only kicks in at about 25 MPH. Try it. At slow speed you steer the direction you want to go, after 25mph it's the opposite. We do this without even consciously thinking about it.

Newbies can get themselves in trouble with this and that's what comes with riding experience.

Physics is wild!

 

[FJRBluesman]

How comfortable and controlled is your shifting in a large sweeping right-hand curve as you're pulling on that left grip?? It's awkward for me to even think about sqeezing the clutch lever as I'm pulling on the left hand grip :blink: By PRESSING, your fingers are still free to use the clutch and/or brake lever (with all four fingers).

"Ideally", there should be constant (at least, small) acceleration through the curve. Any shifting or braking serves to unsettle the suspension and 'muddy' the cornering process. Gear selection (clutching) would ideally be done before corner entry -- when transitionining from approach speed to entry speed. Also, judging the proper entry speed may alleviate the need for any braking.

When not using the clutch or brake levers, the hands should, ideally, be wrapped around the grips.

Just a 'topic for discussion'.....

+1

You can do shifting in the turns like a big sweeper but you should be set up for that already. For the track, do all your braking into the turn and at the apex, accelerate out of it.

For the street, a word of caution about shifting in turns; if aggressively in a turn and lean angle is aggresive or extreme, any deceleration can and will put you into the ground, low side. You need the inertia to keep you up and balanced. For the street you can accelerate in a sweeper, but wanting to be hard on it to shift etc, I'd say you're already going too fast.

Go fast on the track and cruise on the streets.

Enjoy your riding so you can ride another day.

 

[feejer222]

Too much thinking going on here. Just ride and counter steer, simple as that, don't start thinking when going into a bend 'now which hand do I use?'. Do you think about which hand to use when you brake or pull the clutch? Just let it happen, look at the exit of the bend, or beyond and get ready to squirt the gas........bugger! Made me want to go for a ride now!

 

[FJRBluesman]

Too much thinking going on here. Just ride and counter steer, simple as that, don't start thinking when going into a bend 'now which hand do I use?'. Do you think about which hand to use when you brake or pull the clutch? Just let it happen, look at the exit of the bend, or beyond and get ready to squirt the gas........bugger! Made me want to go for a ride now!

GUNNY!!!!!! :yahoo:

You said it best!