A question about counter steering

[SPORT]

To answer your original question, one-handed steering does apply to the feej.
I've been wondering about countersteering myself, but in a little different way. I noticed my tendency is to pull back with the outside hand rather than push with the inside. It just feels more natural and stable to me. The inside hand rests -- more or less -- so it doesn't counteract the other. My question: Is there any reason the push should be used instead of pull?

Stability and leverage.

You have less leverage pulling than pushing. Try pulling dead weight and compare it with pushing the same dead weight. The process is similar with pushing vs. pulling on the handlebars. Also, the strength from pushing while leaning into a turn helps stabilize the bike. In short, if you are leaning and pushing on the bar, it effectively makes for a more stable and controlled turn.

Just my $0.02 worth

 

[Fred W]

Most All riders do this "counter steering", most without thinking.

There, phicst it for you.

It is impossible to turn a 2 wheeled vehicle at speed without applying countersteering, either consciously or (like me) unconsciously.

If your bike is going round a corner, you are doin' it!!

 

[FJReady]

Turning? These things are supposed to turn?

 

[keithaba]

Turning? These things are supposed to turn?

Well, I know mine is certainly good at laying down. That's why I'm reading this book!

 

[noob]

I found the best way to make a bike responsive (turning wise) was to be in the correct "riding" position. Alot of riders put way too much weight on their wrists, making it very difficult for the front to be responsive.

(if you haven't already) try this: after getting to speed, put the balls of your feet on the pegs, now use your leg muscles (and stomach muscles) to support your upper body, arch your back, lean forward. Your elbows should be bent and your wrists just laying on the grips, with no weight on them.

It becomes easier as your (riding) muscles become stronger. I didn't stay in this position for hours or anything, but certainly tried hard to when at The Gap or similar place... really anytime you want the front to be very responsive.

Try it if you haven't, I think you'll like it

 

[Bounce]

push right - go right

push left - go left

what more needs to be said?

 

[Fred W]

push right - go rightpush left - go left

what more needs to be said?

That's probably too much said already.

I can't believe that people think and talk so much about how to steer a bike...

It's like falling off a log. You just do it.

 

[odot]

Or, falling off a wagon.....for all ya'll chasin' the dragon still after all these years.

 

[SPORT]

push right - go rightpush left - go left

what more needs to be said?

That about sums it up, but some here are asking a different question.

 

[BernieB]

I agree with not thinking about counter-steering. That was intuitive to me. Eventually, the pushing on the inside bar became automatic not so much by practicing that specific technique, but by taking turns faster. What helped me the most was learning to lean a little more into the turns, specifically making sure my head was on the inside side of the centerline of the bike, when cornering. That was simple act I could practice first thing into the turn. Then it is me leaning more and countersteering less, keeping the bike more upright in any given turn and offering more contact patch for increased speeds.

 

[turbodave_98]

check out this link for techniques:

https://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=926

 

[v65]

push right - go rightpush left - go left

what more needs to be said?

In any endeavor I have ever taken seriously open discussion with others involved has always improved my performance. If professional racers discuss this why shouldn't we? Are you going to claim to be better than them? Half of what I am reading here is reading comprehension problems. We are NOT discussing countersteering, we are discussing technique.

 

[odot]

Ease up there, killer. Don't get the ol' panties in a bundle. Sometimes too much thinking is a bad thing.

 

[v65]

Ease up there, killer. Don't get the ol' panties in a bundle. Sometimes too much thinking is a bad thing.

Sorry dude, have to disagree with you here. Having to think while you are riding is bad, discussing techniques to be practiced in a controlled setting is good.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Possibly the most benefit of pushing on the inside bar and relaxing the outside hand, is the effect it has on overall body position. It's true that small movements in body parts can result in significant changes of C.G.

It's human nature to compress the side of the body that is being used to push, as long as the other side is not applying a counter pull force. Set a large bottle on a table. Reach out with your right hand and attempt to twist off the cap while leaving your left arm dangling. Now, try both hands simultaneously and "watch" the difference in your body motion. You will be amazed at what happens.

My suggestion is try the inside push, outside relax, and allow your inside waistline to compress with the push. You should notice your head now sits to the inside of center when referencing the wind screen.

If you want to "measure" just how much impact that little change of body has, get three strong friends to support the bike with you sitting perfectly upright in the riding position, then do the push/compress move. Make sure they are ready to hold you and the bike up, because the CG shift you induce will amaze everyone. Especially if you are old, fat and slow like me.

I'm all for practice until it no longer requires thought.

 

[Timbo2015]

I haven't figured out how to use those quotes yet, but I will try to offer a few comments anyway:

Fred W said it was impossible to turn a 2 wheel vehicle without countersteering. This is not entirely true. I set my cruise control and drove down the road with no hands on the bar. I could shift my weight and make the bike turn one way or the other. The turns were VERY slow, and really wouldn't do you much good in a real turn. Impossible, no. VERY difficult and slow, yes. That test was enough to prove to me (not that I needed proof) that people who claim to "body steer" and do not countersteer are deluding themselves. FredW I 100% agree with the point you were making, but must differ on the very fine details.

FJRBluesman said "At slow speed you steer the direction you want to go, after 25mph it's the opposite." This is simply not true. There is no switchover at 25 mph or any other speed. Any time you are balancing on two wheels, pushing the bars left will make the bike steer MORE right.

I think the thing that confuses some people is that to steer to the right, for example, you countersteer by, say, pushing on the right bar. This makes the wheels steer out from under you to the left. Since the bike's CG is no longer directly over the wheels, the bike tends to fall to the right. (there is also gyroscopic precesion which tends to make the bike lean to the right, too) In order to catch the bike from falling the bars (and rider, subconsciously) will turn to the right to compensate. In other words, countersteering initiates a turn, or changes your lean angle. In steady state cornering the bars are pointed in the same direction as you are turning. You can turn tighter by countersteering to the left. This does not mean the bars are necessarily pointed to the left of center, only that they are turned left of the balancing point. You can decrease your lean angle by countersteering to the right of the balancing point.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Ease up there, killer. Don't get the ol' panties in a bundle. Sometimes too much thinking is a bad thing.

Sorry dude, have to disagree with you here. Having to think while you are riding is bad, discussing techniques to be practiced in a controlled setting is good.

Discussion is good...until the discussion of techniques and ideas results in the obfuscation of the technique to be remembered.

People can talk till they're blue in the face and it results in no harm...unless a newbie (or old fogie) misconstrues or misunderstands the conversation...

...and forgets the simple "push right - go right, push left - go left".

Maybe you disagree with the simple statement as being "inaccurate"...however the technique is effective and easy to remember.

carry on...

 

[k7lvo]

I used to use the "push left to go left" technique. I found that I was pushing more than the bar. I was pushing the bike to the left, but, at the same time, I was pushing my body to the right. The bike was doing most of the leaning; I was staying closer to straight up.

Now, I move my body to the left, then pull right, almost like I'm pulling the bike over, and making my body lean a little more than the bike. I find that, for me, at any rate, this is easier and makes me a faster, smoother rider.

 

[v65]

Ease up there, killer. Don't get the ol' panties in a bundle. Sometimes too much thinking is a bad thing.

Sorry dude, have to disagree with you here. Having to think while you are riding is bad, discussing techniques to be practiced in a controlled setting is good.

Discussion is good...until the discussion of techniques and ideas results in the obfuscation of the technique to be remembered.

People can talk till they're blue in the face and it results in no harm...unless a newbie (or old fogie) misconstrues or misunderstands the conversation...

...and forgets the simple "push right - go right, push left - go left".

Maybe you disagree with the simple statement as being "inaccurate"...however the technique is effective and easy to remember.

carry on...

I guess my point is that Parks book has very clearly displayed, on the pages that we are discussing, a picture of Kurtis Roberts not using the technique we are talking about. Now he is countersteering, in fact the bike he is on is well layed over at Daytona, so he is countersteering his *** off. However his outside arm is clearly not relaxed.

So either Kurtis is unfamiliar with the "push right - go right, push left - go left" philosophy or he subconsciously tensing the outside arm without realizing it. I am buying the latter, and Parks backs this up. He talks about riders doing this as the lean angles get steep. For those not familiar with the younger Roberts (like me), here is a link: wikipedia. If someone of his caliber can make this mistake, I think we can discuss it here.

 

[SacramentoMike]

Interesting subject. I've read an article where some physicist named all the instant calculations a centerfielder had to make in .4 seconds or something in order to determine the flight of a batted ball and where and how fast to run to make the catch. I don't think they really do that. I think they just run and try to catch it, and if they started doing the math, there'd be a lot more inside-the-park HRs. I rode my brother-in-law's Gold Wing Trike a while back. If you want to turn left, you have to turn the bars left, and try not to go falling off the right side of the bike as you go around the corner! If anything ever taught me about countersteering, that was it.