A question about counter steering

[v65]

If you want to "measure" just how much impact that little change of body has, get three strong friends to support the bike with you sitting perfectly upright in the riding position, then do the push/compress move. Make sure they are ready to hold you and the bike up, because the CG shift you induce will amaze everyone. Especially if you are old, fat and slow like me.

Not knowing Hulk Hogan personally, I don't have friends that strong, but when spring comes I will try that out. Thanks Jeff!

 

[feejer222]

I didn't realise just how much you can over-complicate the simplest of things. I am truly impressed.

 

[v65]

I didn't realise just how much you can over-complicate the simplest of things. I am truly impressed.

Interesting post considering your avatar.

 

[feejer222]

Why?

Counter steering is something everyone does, it's not rocket science and there's no need to try and make it sound like it is. This will only confuse anyone who is unsure of what happens and make them nervous of trying it.

Push right....go right.....push left go left......When you get more comfortable with the idea you experiment with it, but to make a science of it is unnecesary and over complicating things. Just my opinion.

Racers use it to change line mid corner and to be able to turn more accurately and turn tighter, I use it to avoid pot-holes whilst going in a straight line and every time I turn at anything over about 20mph.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I guess my point is that Parks book has very clearly displayed, on the pages that we are discussing, a picture of Kurtis Roberts not using the technique we are talking about. Now he is countersteering, in fact the bike he is on is well layed over at Daytona, so he is countersteering his ass off. However his outside arm is clearly not relaxed.
So either Kurtis is unfamiliar with the "push right - go right, push left - go left" philosophy or he subconsciously tensing the outside arm without realizing it. I am buying the latter, and Parks backs this up. He talks about riders doing this as the lean angles get steep. For those not familiar with the younger Roberts (like me), here is a link: wikipedia. If someone of his caliber can make this mistake, I think we can discuss it here.

Who said he's making a mistake? There's alternate techniques and Parks is just trying to get people to not have one hand fight the other, also known as "death grip." An easy technique to force yourself to relax the death grip in a corner is to flap your elbows. Sounds strange but you can't have a death grip if your elbows aren't locked up.

I saw one alternative that seemed to work for a racer in our group. His left was his steering hand and right the fine motion throttle/brake hand. He was lightening quick and easy to spot, as he'd hold the right grip loosely & not buried in the crook of his thumb.

I personally push into a turn like it sounds most people do, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. These technique threads can devolve into NEPRT if you over-analyze them.

 

[keithaba]

V65 has got it right!

The point is not, "should I countersteer?" I am a pretty decent rider, again, ask those who have ridden with me, and they will tell you I can certainly move (and crash ) this FJR!

But, as I am reading this book, I am realizing that I am making some mistakes, such as "Failing to predominatnly use the inside bar to countersteer."

Also, I am learning that I typically wasn't keeping my outside arm relaxed, which has a profound effect on your body positioning, as JeffAshe mentioned earlier. You end up "wrestling" the bars for control of the bike.

For those of you who have had track instruction, and feel like Rossi has nothing on you, then fine, you don't need to talk about conter-steering. However, if you are reading books, and discussing some of the points after you practice, that can only improve your technique, which is what I am trying to do.

 

[dean]

To answer your original question, one-handed steering does apply to the feej.
I've been wondering about countersteering myself, but in a little different way. I noticed my tendency is to pull back with the outside hand rather than push with the inside. It just feels more natural and stable to me. The inside hand rests -- more or less -- so it doesn't counteract the other. My question: Is there any reason the push should be used instead of pull?

i'm the opposite. especially when going hard into a turn, i find myself leaning right into that inside grip, which therefore causes me to push on it. sitting at my desk right now, and practicing turns while making vroom vroom sounds, it's much easier and more natural for me when i'm leaning into that turn to just aim right for that inside handlebar and let the outside one follow, rather than pull on the outside while leaning in.

just my take on the matter.

dean

cincinnati

 

[v65]

Why?
Counter steering is something everyone does, it's not rocket science and there's no need to try and make it sound like it is. This will only confuse anyone who is unsure of what happens and make them nervous of trying it.

Push right....go right.....push left go left......When you get more comfortable with the idea you experiment with it, but to make a science of it is unnecesary and over complicating things. Just my opinion.

Racers use it to change line mid corner and to be able to turn more accurately and turn tighter, I use it to avoid pot-holes whilst going in a straight line and every time I turn at anything over about 20mph.

From what I can see from your avatar the rider is not just pushing right, his left arm does not looked relaxed to me. So IMO, which is not worth much I will admit, the rider in your avatar is providing input from both hands. I will bet if asked he will deny it, my claim is that this is subconscious (that's the third time you guys have made me spell that) and the rider is probably unaware of it if he is.

Also, you say not to think to much about it, just do it. Well I agree up to a point. But in every sport athletes have off days when things just don't feel right. What do you do then? Well you analyze the situation and look for what is going wrong. Practicing relaxing my arm has helped me be more consistent and have fewer off days.

If you don't like that argument how about this one. I, as in me personally, was guilty of providing input with my outside arm without knowing it. As a result my riding was not smooth, and I didn't realize why until I read Parks book. So for some us mortals discussing riding in this way is helpful, if you don't find it so then I offer my sincere apologies.

 

[Bounce]

re: the death grip comment. you'll find the flick-a-bility of the fjr much lighter once you relax your tug-of-war between your two hands in a turn. also, supporting your weight with your back (and lifting yourself off the bars) makes the steering lighter and faster. all facets of counter steering and all covered in the simple mantra PR-GR, PL-GL.

re: steering using body english while hands off the bars. you do realize that your still counter steering, right? you lean left, the front wheel initiates a slight movement to the right and then the center line of the bike tilts and moves you left. the difference is that actually choosing the counter steer (PR-GR. PL-GL) results in a more accurate and crisp control of directional changes.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Good stuff...

My prediction...this thread will run over 100 posts.

Who's got the over/under?

 

[uctofeej]

[i'm the opposite. especially when going hard into a turn, i find myself leaning right into that inside grip, which therefore causes me to push on it. sitting at my desk right now, and practicing turns while making vroom vroom sounds, it's much easier and more natural for me when i'm leaning into that turn to just aim right for that inside handlebar and let the outside one follow, rather than pull on the outside while leaning in.

Dean, what you describe is in line with what I do if I'm sitting upright. When I lean off or shift weight inside the CG, the push feels less stable. Maybe I just feel too extended while pushing forward from the inside position.

Possibly the most benefit of pushing on the inside bar and relaxing the outside hand, is the effect it has on overall body position. It's true that small movements in body parts can result in significant changes of C.G.
It's human nature to compress the side of the body that is being used to push, as long as the other side is not applying a counter pull force. Set a large bottle on a table. Reach out with your right hand and attempt to twist off the cap while leaving your left arm dangling. Now, try both hands simultaneously and "watch" the difference in your body motion. You will be amazed at what happens.

My suggestion is try the inside push, outside relax, and allow your inside waistline to compress with the push. You should notice your head now sits to the inside of center when referencing the wind screen.

If you want to "measure" just how much impact that little change of body has, get three strong friends to support the bike with you sitting perfectly upright in the riding position, then do the push/compress move. Make sure they are ready to hold you and the bike up, because the CG shift you induce will amaze everyone. Especially if you are old, fat and slow like me.

JeffAshe's post offers the physical explanation I'm looking for. Until I have a justification for changing my bad habit, I can mentally make the change. Therefore, this discussion is worth having.

My three cent.

 

[keithaba]

re: the death grip comment. you'll find the flick-a-bility of the fjr much lighter once you relax your tug-of-war between your two hands in a turn. also, supporting your weight with your back (and lifting yourself off the bars) makes the steering lighter and faster. all facets of counter steering and all covered in the simple mantra PR-GR, PL-GL.

In addition to what you said, I noticed a HUGE improvement in the sensitivity of the input to the bars when I added a Super Brace.

 

[FJRBluesman]

This has gone too far, does it now qualify to be a NEPRT? :fie:

I got one for you guys to think about:

I mounted a joystick to my triple clamp and now I have control over yaw, pitch, and roll. No thinking I just pull or push and go up or down, roll right or left, etc. Next I'm farkling on a .50 cal… just incase I see the Red Baron. I pull the trigger rata-tat-tat, no thinking just pull. B)

I bet no one covers these things in their riding schools...

 

[noob]

Here's the definition of "counter steering" from the back of the MSF BRC handbook...

" a momentary steering deflection away from the intended direction of travel caused by pressing on the handgrip in the direction of the turn; used to produce a lean in the desired direction; press right, lean right, go right; press left, lean left, go left. "

So, basically, that's it, it's that momentary deflection (thus the term 'counter') away from the intended direction of travel.

I swear the words "counter steer" have caused more confusion, hope this clears it up a bit.

Regards,

 

[Bustanut joker]

Good stuff...
My prediction...this thread will run over 100 posts.

Who's got the over/under?

I'll cover the over end of it!

Funny I came here expecting something to do with some weird type of race, involving counter tops. Color me embareassed!

:jester:

 

[Toecutter]

Its the same for all 2 wheeled bikes, even Harleys.

I haven't read Parks yet, but...I'm taking his course this summer, hopefully they can reinforce the book.

If he's teaching it, you can have him autograph your book or buy an autographed copy there, but I'd recommend reading it first, especially the chapter on suspension setup.

 

[v65]

Its the same for all 2 wheeled bikes, even Harleys.

I haven't read Parks yet, but...I'm taking his course this summer, hopefully they can reinforce the book.

If he's teaching it, you can have him autograph your book or buy an autographed copy there, but I'd recommend reading it first, especially the chapter on suspension setup.

Ok, that's it, I'm out of this.

 

[dean]

[i'm the opposite. especially when going hard into a turn, i find myself leaning right into that inside grip, which therefore causes me to push on it. sitting at my desk right now, and practicing turns while making vroom vroom sounds, it's much easier and more natural for me when i'm leaning into that turn to just aim right for that inside handlebar and let the outside one follow, rather than pull on the outside while leaning in.

Dean, what you describe is in line with what I do if I'm sitting upright. When I lean off or shift weight inside the CG, the push feels less stable. Maybe I just feel too extended while pushing forward from the inside position.

understood.

i have a nasty habit of getting off the bike in a curve, but not really leaning forward. i'm leaning off the bike, but i'm keeping my ass back. that's not really helping my cornering any. a trusted and well-respected riding buddy (the one i mentioned i'm loaning my fjr to in the thread on "do you let others ride your m/c") reminded me i need to get my weight not only off the bike to the side, but up near the grips. when i'm doing the "stick my ass out back" lean, it's easy to pull on the handlebars; when i remind myself to lean off and up, that's when i find myself pushing more and pulling less.

dean

cincinnati

 

[cougar8000]

They even go so far as to insist on a straight arm on the inside bar. Kinda tough if you're hugging a tank, but pretty feasible on the Eff Jay Are.

WOW. stop. Hold the horses. Who ever told you to have a straight arm? I hope it was a huge miscommunication.

You never - ever want to have a straight arm. Your arm is used as an extension of the fork to soften the impact of the bumps. If you have a straight arm and hit the bump what do you think is going to happen? You must have it bent to be able to account for for fluctuations.

 

[k7lvo]

Why?
Counter steering is something everyone does, it's not rocket science and there's no need to try and make it sound like it is. This will only confuse anyone who is unsure of what happens and make them nervous of trying it.

Push right....go right.....push left go left......When you get more comfortable with the idea you experiment with it, but to make a science of it is unnecesary and over complicating things. Just my opinion.

Racers use it to change line mid corner and to be able to turn more accurately and turn tighter, I use it to avoid pot-holes whilst going in a straight line and every time I turn at anything over about 20mph.

At the risk of further complicating things for you by making you think about it: :lol:

You countersteer whenever you have forward motion and your feet are off the ground.

Example 1: You're creeping forward, both feet on the pegs, waiting for opposing traffic to clear so you can turn left. When the opening comes, you countersteer and roll on some throttle...

Example 2: Watch any drill team that makes precise maneuvers from a standing start. As they start to roll, their feet come up to the pegs, the front wheel turns slightly opposite the direction they want to go, and they "swoop" into the maneuver.