AE shifting and 1st gear engagement problem solved - incorrect engine oil viscosity

[Oakdave]

To cut to the chase, folks, if your clutch 'chatters' upon take-off...and/or you have an AE module (electric shift) that exhibits (intermittently or otherwise) various problems related to shifting (including the 'clutch chatter' thing), you need to change your engine oil to a lower viscosity oil. After YEARS of frustration dealing with various 'clutch issues' and 'shifting issues' on my AE, I discovered this past week that it was the viscosity of the engine oil that has been causing the problems all along. Clutch soaks, reprogramming clutch engagement points, etc... just a waste of time. Here's my story.

I own a 2007 FJR1300AE with 175K miles on it (I bought it used in 2011 with 59K miles). Other than regular maintenance, the only work has involved replacing the shift actuator motor at 135K (under warranty-- the motor unit was fried), and the stator at 160K. Nothing on the bike has been modified from stock OEM.

During the 7 years that I've owned the bike there have been intermittent periods of time during which various 'shifting' snafus would seem to surface. The snafu would seem to last awhile (meaning, a few days to a few weeks)...and then just go away on their own. The two biggest snafu/issues: (1) after initial warm-up, engaging into 1st from neutral involves a lot of hard 'chatter' (not smooth feathering transition to 1st) and (2) during otherwise normal riding, when trying to down-shift, the bike refusing to do so or it would do it only after quite a delay between the point when I press down the hand-shift paddle and when the actual gear change happens (e.g. in second gear, press down on paddle shifter, nothing happens...until two or three seconds later...when it then goes down into 1st)... so, a delay in response. The snafus may result in various YCCM error codes appearing, many of which require stalling out the bike, turning the ignition main switch off, then turning back on. Ugggh!

In the case of 'first gear engagement chatter from take-off' issue, my remedy usually involved changing the clutch engagement point (to a higher engine speed) which would usually 'fix' the problem for awhile until, eventually, I realized it was back to being a 'smooth' engagement but where the engagement engine speed was TOO HIGH (meaning, I would have to go back and lower the engagement point down again). In the case of intermittent 'delayed down-shfting' (after pressing the hand-shift paddle), all I could do was deal with the problem until it would evetually go away on it's own. Regarding EACH of these issues...given enough time, the issue would go away on its own. Now I understand why: over time, engine oil loses viscosity so, over time, the oil feeding the clutch pads became 'thinner' (less viscous). If the oil is too viscous, it doesn't make it way onto the clutch pads/plates and if those are not lubricated adequately they will stick and not allow smooth clutch engagement/disengagement functionality.

Until last week, my bike had not been exhibiting either of the 'clutch/shifting' issues for at least the past few months. But last week I decided it was time for an oil change (so that's what I did). I had Yamalube 20W-50 non-synthetic in it (I live in a very hot part of California) with about 6500 miles since last oil change. I replaced the oil with a fresh batch of the same oil (Yamalube 20W-50 non-synthetic). The oil change was performed late Wednesday night and after changing the oil I made no attempt at riding it that night-- I went to bed. Early the next morning (Thursday), I started up the bike as usual (I commute to work on it, daily) and upon 'takeoff' the old 'clutch chatter' was back. Hmmm. Nothing had changed since the previous morning (when it experienced no chatter) except now it had NEW engine oil in it. But, I thought to myself, "When I put the new oil in the last time, it didn't exhibit the 'chatter issue'...so what gives?" It then dawned on me that the last time that I had replaced the oil I did at a time when California (San Fernando Valley area) was experiencing record high temperatures (as in, 110 high, 95 at 11 PM... 83 degrees at 7 AM type of heat) and the temperature was about 25 degrees cooler last week than the morning temps had been when the previous batch of 20W-50 has been put into it.

That day (Thursday) when riding it back and forth to work (about 30 miles each way, include some 'city' stuff), I noticed the 'delayed down-shifing' issue also manifesting itself. Again: hmmm. The oil change? Same issues occurred on Friday (1st gear engagement point clutch chatter) and the delayed shifting response when trying to downshift. So, I decided to try something to test the 'new oil/viscosity'is the problem' theory: On Saturday, I drained the oil and replaced with half Lucas Motorcycle Oil 10W-30 synthetic (2 quarts) and kept 2 quarts of the Yamalube 20W-50 in it (resulting in something like a 15W-40 amalgamation). After doing this engine oil swap, I rode the bike and the 'delayed downshift' problem was gone. GONE!. And, the gear shifting was noticably smoother! Not just a lttle; a lot! I wouldn't be able to truly test the '1st gear engagement chatter' issue until the next morning (after starting the bike after sitting all night). So, on Sunday morning I fired her up and, guess what? No 1st gear engagement chatter! (You've got to be kidding me!). In effect, it would appear that the lowering of the oil viscosity solved both problems. So, next time you're experiencing any 'clutch/shifting' issues, trying changing your oil to the next viscosity down (or, if need be, blend what's already there with a motorcycle 10W-30 or 5W-30...you get the point), and see if that doesn't fix the problem. It's easy enough to try (and a lot easier than doing a clutch soak or engagement point computer adjustment).

I hope this info helps some of you, at least. Sate riding!

-Oakdave

 

[mcatrophy]

Very interesting (and well described).

To me, the most curious aspect of this is not that oil viscosity makes a difference, but that it is so quick to make a difference, when we all seem to have been of the opinion that the clutch is pretty well starved of oil.

As you say, a much easier way than other processes of attempting a cure, but I don't think it will resolve all clutch problems, particularly where people have found some sort of black sticky gunge on their plates.

Certainly a good first thing to try.

 

[Enn]

thanks a lot for this report, I also have the AE model, so perhaps I will will need to follow the advice one day. Right now I do not have any problems, the oil is Yamalube FS 10W40.

 

[samamoto]

Having the 06 AE I notice after every single oil change the clunk when getting to 1st to be smaller for about 1000 miles or so and later on gradually getting back to normal. I don't think I noticed any significant difference between Rotella T6 (5W40) and Mobil 1 High Mileage (10w30) that I tend to use. It clunks, doesn't bother me too much but I may be biased since my previous bike was a BMW...

I am surprised to hear the issue you have with downshifting. I have never had anything like you describe, mine shifts down right away.

If I was to bitch about something with AE that would be the hesitation of the clutch during quick lunch, keeping it too long semi-slipping on 1st gear and in between 1st and 2nd under heavy acceleration. No oil change unfortunately will help with that.

 

[Oakdave]

Here is my response to a member who sent me a message/question concerning what error codes I had encounter related to the shift actuator problem: The shift actuator problem triggered error codes SH_16 and SH_37 intermittently. The problem with my shift actuator turned out to be that the internal motor was worn out (apparently reached it's maximum trigger cycles which, I believe for that rated motor, should be around 250,000 or so cycles...250,000 'shifts') and it started melting its lacquer/shellac coating (the coating you normally see on small motors of this type). Before getting the first SH error--a week or so before the first one--I began smelling something from what seemed to be coming from under the engine compartment that was a smell I had never noticed previously and it was a scent that I was not familiar with--it was not a 'coolant' smell...not an 'oil on the manifold' smell...not a 'tired old motorcycle' smell--but rather sort of a strange 'sweetish' smell. In the end, it was the smell of burning varnish (the lacquer/shellac coating on the shift-actuator's motor that was melting). Once the error codes started occurruing (intermittently, depending on how far I was riding and the ambient temperature outside), the bike would start and run just fine...until a short while following it reaching operating temperature (the motor shellac was 're-melting' each time... then cooling). With enough heat, the shellac was breaking down each time...and that was creating an internal short in the motor. If I turned off the bike (when the error came up) and waited awhile (depending on the ambient temperature, sometimes needed to wait just 10 minutes other times about 30 minutes for the bike to cool off enough, hence, the shellac 're-hardening itself), I would then be able to start it again and ride (no error code)...until it heated up again (back would come the error). And so on. Eventually, the problem began rearing it's head sooner and sooner after reaching operating temperature--to the point where it wasn't practical to ride. It was at that point that I brought the bike into the dealer, who determined that it was indeed the shift actuator failing and needing replacing. Fortunately for me, the bike was still covered under the Yamaha Extended Service warranty, so they replaced it at no charge. Just prior to bringing it to the dealer, I conducted my own 'independent' test of the shift actuator: rather than starting the bike (to reach a high temperature), using a heat gun I applied hot air directly onto the shift actuator (the bike was not running--it was cold). I turned the engine on an the error code immedately popped up (no riding, no engine heat...just the hot air blowing directly onto the shift actuator would, apparently, be enough to cause the shellac/lacquer coating to begin melting causing the short. I then took an ice-cold damp rag from and immediately applied it onto the surface of the shift actuator and guess what happened-- you guessed it-- the error code immediately went away (turned bike off, turn back on-- no presence of the error code which, if had been triggered as a result of riding an 'waiting it to cool down would have otherwise usually taken from 10 to 30 minutes.

I hope this info helps you with your own diagnosis.

 

[Oakdave]

If I was to bitch about something with AE that would be the hesitation of the clutch during quick lunch, keeping it too long semi-slipping on 1st gear and in between 1st and 2nd under heavy acceleration. No oil change unfortunately will help with that.

This may be an indication that your clutch engagement position setting (SH__66) is set too high. The clutch engagement position determines the engine speed at which the clutch will become fully engaged (no further 'feathering') when going from neutral into first gear. I have my clutch engagement position set at around 1800 rpm (which, in reality, will actually engage anywhere from 1650 rpm to 1900 rpm depending on engine temperature, oil viscosity, and a number of other factors/variables present at time of launch (that the bike's ECM uses to 'tell' the clutch when to engage).

 

[Steve in Phx]

Interesting subject. I have a 2007 AE.

I don't think oil viscosity is the culprit. In my case, I've found that any chattering on my AE is a result of oil temperature. Not to be confused with coolant temperature, which warms up more quickly than the oil.

On cold mornings, my bike will sometimes chatter a bit. As the engine heats up, it goes away. This has been very consistent in my experience.

Wouldn't this jive with your findings as well?

 

[Oakdave]

Very interesting (and well described).
To me, the most curious aspect of this is not that oil viscosity makes a difference, but that it is so quick to make a difference, when we all seem to have been of the opinion that the clutch is pretty well starved of oil.

As you say, a much easier way than other processes of attempting a cure, but I don't think it will resolve all clutch problems, particularly where people have found some sort of black sticky gunge on their plates.

Certainly a good first thing to try.

It might help knowing that, following the oil change and before riding the next morning, I did start the engine and allowed it to run for several minutes at full operating temperature. I engage in and out first gear several times (while on the center stand). I did that in hopes of getting the clutch plates/pads as much lubricated as possible with the new oil mixture. My routine (of starting the bike and going) was no different than usual--i.e., start the bike, wait about 2 minutes to reach one or two bars on the temp gauge..and go).

 

[Oakdave]

Interesting subject. I have a 2007 AE.I don't think oil viscosity is the culprit. In my case, I've found that any chattering on my AE is a result of oil temperature. Not to be confused with coolant temperature, which warms up more quickly than the oil.

On cold mornings, my bike will sometimes chatter a bit. As the engine heats up, it goes away. This has been very consistent in my experience.

Wouldn't this jive with your findings as well?

MAYBE: I might be using the term 'viscosity' incorrectly. Let's put it this way: when I replaced the (newly added) 20W-50 Yamalube (high viscosity) with a 15W-40 'hybrid mix' (lower viscosity as compared to the 20W-50), the problems went away immediately. The temperature (heating up the 20W-50) would eventually see the neutral-to-first engagement chatter go away, but not the intermittent problem when down-shifting in lower gears. With the 'lower viscosity' oil (the 15W-40 mix), both problems went away immediately (was completely independent of the temperature).

 

[RossKean]

Having the 06 AE I notice after every single oil change the clunk when getting to 1st to be smaller for about 1000 miles or so and later on gradually getting back to normal. I don't think I noticed any significant difference between Rotella T6 (5W40) and Mobil 1 High Mileage (10w30) that I tend to use. It clunks, doesn't bother me too much but I may be biased since my previous bike was a BMW...
I am surprised to hear the issue you have with downshifting. I have never had anything like you describe, mine shifts down right away.

If I was to bitch about something with AE that would be the hesitation of the clutch during quick lunch, keeping it too long semi-slipping on 1st gear and in between 1st and 2nd under heavy acceleration. No oil change unfortunately will help with that.

I wonder if the "semi-slipping" is a function of energy-conserving additives in the Mobil High Mileage oil.

 

[samamoto]

I wonder if the "semi-slipping" is a function of energy-conserving additives in the Mobil High Mileage oil.

That could be the case, however I don't recall any difference with Rotella T6. I'll take it into consideration with next oil change. I really need to push to experience it and typically start at least a bit uphill to really experience it, I won't be changing a 800 miles oil just because of that. Synthetic, 10W30, no additives... I'm gonna have to google that.


For now I don't feel like playing with the engagement point settings. It works fine and I need it that way for my commute.

 

[RossKean]

The Mobil 1 High Mileage oil has some "additives" that are supposed to "condition" seals and gaskets (to reduce possibility of leakage). Also, a special "cleaning additive". There is a mention in the oil specification of "Resource Conserving" which supersedes the "Energy Conserving" descriptor that is generally considered to be a bad thing for wet clutches as well.

Note:

"The Resource Conserving supplemental category requires further properties. The former supplemental category, which was called Energy Conserving required only fuel saving properties from the oil. Resource Conserving requires further properties like:

• emission system protection

•turbocharger protection

• compatibility with engines operating on ethanol containing fuels, up to E-85"

From:https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

This might not be the best idea for a wet-clutch system but I can't say for sure that this is the cause of the clutch slip.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Oakdave, I'd be curious of your experiences over the long term. Please post up here after you have another few thousand miles on her. I'll be following. Thanks for the input!

 

[Oakdave]

Update: After several thousand miles since my original post on this thread, I've come to realize that changing oil viscosity has NOT solved my AE shifting and 1st gear engagement issues. Rather, I've come to believe that my problems have to do with either (a) air in the clutch line and/or ( B) clutch master cylinder needing to be rebuilt. I say this because the shifting problem and hard chatter when engaging into 1st gear became more frequent but went away when I flushed the clutch line (in response to an error code that specified air in the clutch line). The problems came back (and each time immediately resolved upon bleeding the clutch). Today I have rebuilt the clutch master cylinder, and I'll report back with an update once I have something pertinent to state.

 

[rbentnail]

I've been called ridiculous b/c of this but I don't care:

I know different bikes like different oils, that's just the way it is. My '07 hates Rotella. Always has. Grabs and jerks horribly. When folks started saying I needed to add STP to my oil I knew they were full of it. Mine's not an AE but it is prone to grabbing (Rotella & Castrol) and slipping (Mobil1). I have found also that for me viscosity/weight change does little to help or harm. So maybe just a different brand of oil? Although air in a line/master cylinder problem certainly could mimic the symptoms.

 

[owsley]

Thanks for the update

 

[Oakdave]

Thanks for the update

You're welcome. I'll report back in a few weeks, once I know if the clutch master cylinder rebuild was the solution for my problems.

 

[Oakdave]

Thanks for the update

You're welcome. I'll report back in a few weeks, once I know if the clutch master cylinder rebuild was the solution for my problems.

Update: After rebuilding the clutch master cylinder, for a few days the first gear engagement from neutral seemed much smoother, and the intermittent issues when downshifting from 2nd to 1st went away. Then (after a few days) the problems came back. After a more careful (I suppose) inspection of the clutch lines, master cylinder, and slave cylinder, I noticed what appeared to be a small leakage coming from the lower edge of where the slave cylinder meets the housing. With no slave cylinder rebuild kit available on the market and not looking to pay for a new one, I found a used one on eBay and swapped it out a few days ago. I believe the engagement 'rough chatter' and shifting issues will now be a thing of the past. The original slave cylinder's rubber seal had become fatigued/flattened out and was allowing the clutch fluid (brake fluid) to seep out and let air get sucked into the clutch line. The 'new' (used) slave cylinder;s seal showed no signs of wear, and is not leaking. The bike, right now, is engaging-disengaging...shifting...like when I first purchased it.

 

[Steve in Phx]

Great update.