Altitude surging on 07 fix

[Bob Hughes]

I had a similar experience with Joe at "Mission Motorsports" in Irvine, California. I explained my bike's symptoms and he first said that he had never heard of any issues. When I mentioned that Yamaha was aware of it and that I just want to be in

line for the fix when it comes. He said that as far as he knew it was some kind of internet hoax that if there was a real

problem he would know about it etc. etc. ("if the problem is real?" what an insult to my intelligence)

I'm a Control Systems Engineer and have more than a vague idea of how things work and what constitutes a problem

that needs fixing.

Talking to Joe at Mission Motorsports, I felt like an airline pilot that is reluctant to report a UFO for he knows "they"

won't believe him. Yeah, I won't be giving my future business to Mission Motorsports in Irvine.

I have a theory that if I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling from a business, ie 100% customer satisfaction, I shop purely on price. You want my business, you have to pay for it... no profit for you. Would not be possible without the internet, but now it is.

 

[rayban]

I had a similar experience with Joe at "Mission Motorsports" in Irvine, California. I explained my bike's symptoms and he first said that he had never heard of any issues. When I mentioned that Yamaha was aware of it and that I just want to be in

line for the fix when it comes. He said that as far as he knew it was some kind of internet hoax that if there was a real

problem he would know about it etc. etc. ("if the problem is real?" what an insult to my intelligence)

I'm a Control Systems Engineer and have more than a vague idea of how things work and what constitutes a problem

that needs fixing.

Talking to Joe at Mission Motorsports, I felt like an airline pilot that is reluctant to report a UFO for he knows "they"

won't believe him. Yeah, I won't be giving my future business to Mission Motorsports in Irvine.

Maybe he is the asshat who claimed to be a dealer Sales Manager in OC in this thread...

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...st&p=300823

 

[rgmax]

I had a similar experience with Joe at "Mission Motorsports" in Irvine, California. I explained my bike's symptoms and he first said that he had never heard of any issues. When I mentioned that Yamaha was aware of it and that I just want to be in

line for the fix when it comes. He said that as far as he knew it was some kind of internet hoax that if there was a real

problem he would know about it etc. etc. ("if the problem is real?" what an insult to my intelligence)

I'm a Control Systems Engineer and have more than a vague idea of how things work and what constitutes a problem

that needs fixing.

Talking to Joe at Mission Motorsports, I felt like an airline pilot that is reluctant to report a UFO for he knows "they"

won't believe him. Yeah, I won't be giving my future business to Mission Motorsports in Irvine.

Talk to John Mathers who owns the place and also personally runs the service department. He is defineatly aware of the problem.

I had my bike in a few months back and he spent quite a bit of time taking it on extended test rides. He noticed some surging at the altitude he was riding at.

He also was interacting with Yamaha Tech Support, they are VERY aware of the problem.

Even though they couldn't fix the problem( yet ), I'm happy with buying the bike and the support I've gotten from them.

 

[timalan]

I have some insider news that there will be a fix coming down the chain very soon. I can't say a whole lot about it ,but the problem and what Yamaha found was explained to me today and some details of the Technical Bulletin that is coming too. I will keep you guys posted....Looks like some folks will be getting new ECU's for their 07's.

OK, I live in Oklahoma and been riding through Arkansas and all that like someone mentioned without trouble.

This summer I went through New Mexico, Colorado, Utah.... Anything above about 5k... I noticed terrible stumbling problems....

That was in June and July. I never even thought about it again. But remembered reading all the '07 bike were having this trouble so today I came to Check on it.

Its good to know something is being done. And Now what do " I " Do? Go to dealer. They will never be able to "prove" it has a problem. Or is there going to be some kind of recall notice like a car Manufacturer would send out?

Advise Please

Tim

And those of you who bought from D and H in Alabama.... Have you contacted them? Gerald seems to be very honest in my dealings, and I wondered what they would say?

Thanks

I did not read all the thread... I left my glasses at work and am blind and old so If this has been covered... Someone just yell at me and tell me where to go! A link or whatever.

 

[rangerray]

I have some insider news that there will be a fix coming down the chain very soon. I can't say a whole lot about it ,but the problem and what Yamaha found was explained to me today and some details of the Technical Bulletin that is coming too. I will keep you guys posted....Looks like some folks will be getting new ECU's for their 07's.

OK, I live in Oklahoma and been riding through Arkansas and all that like someone mentioned without trouble.

This summer I went through New Mexico, Colorado, Utah.... Anything above about 5k... I noticed terrible stumbling problems....

That was in June and July. I never even thought about it again. But remembered reading all the '07 bike were having this trouble so today I came to Check on it.

Its good to know something is being done. And Now what do " I " Do? Go to dealer. They will never be able to "prove" it has a problem. Or is there going to be some kind of recall notice like a car Manufacturer would send out?

Advise Please

Tim

And those of you who bought from D and H in Alabama.... Have you contacted them? Gerald seems to be very honest in my dealings, and I wondered what they would say?

Thanks

I did not read all the thread... I left my glasses at work and am blind and old so If this has been covered... Someone just yell at me and tell me where to go! A link or whatever.

I was told that dealers would be notified first, electronically, then customers would start receiving notification. In my conversation today with Cypress, I was very pleased with the tone and information that was provided, however I was given no technical information. So, I'm surmising that we will not have to prove a defect. It will be a case (like the TPS issue) of taking your letter to the dealer and getting the fix done.

 

[Medium Al]

The point is that there is a range or spectrum of symptoms here, and it is easy to see why. The FI system cannot measure pressure accurately while changing altitude. Period. At one end of that range is getting the mixture a little wrong (probably too rich), then progressively more wrong as the ECU gets more and more confused, until finally surging shows up, and in greater and greater severity, until finally total failure and you have to shut it down.
I hope Yamaha is not focusing solely on the recalc issue. If so we are doomed.

Al

Al,

Your comments are 100% right on!!

Thanks Mick, good to hear from you again. Though I don't agree with my own comments 100% after a little thinking. Main points are correct but mixture will tend to be too LEAN when descending, too rich ascending.

Al

 

[Medium Al]

I had a similar experience with Joe at "Mission Motorsports" in Irvine, California. I explained my bike's symptoms and he first said that he had never heard of any issues. When I mentioned that Yamaha was aware of it and that I just want to be in

line for the fix when it comes. He said that as far as he knew it was some kind of internet hoax that if there was a real

problem he would know about it etc. etc. ("if the problem is real?" what an insult to my intelligence)

I'm a Control Systems Engineer and have more than a vague idea of how things work and what constitutes a problem

that needs fixing.

Talking to Joe at Mission Motorsports, I felt like an airline pilot that is reluctant to report a UFO for he knows "they"

won't believe him. Yeah, I won't be giving my future business to Mission Motorsports in Irvine.

Larsbo

Good to see a real controls guy here. If you don't mind I'd be real curious to hear your opinion on what the problem is. BTW many of us got the same exact treatment at the dealership. I did.

Al

 

[MojoGuzzi]

The surging issue is a big, big concern to me as I contemplate an FJR. I will, though, await an official fix before I pull the trigger.

 

[PA1195]

In my experience operating normally aspirated aircraft with an installed intake manifold pressure guage that correctly reads barometric pressure in inches of Mercury (HG) prior to start-up (altimeter set to 0'), the guage never indicates the actual barometric pressure while the engine is running at full throttle due to pressure losses within the air induction system from the air filter, system flow resistance, and temperature changes of the incoming air...it's always at least an inch or two of HG lower in a good powerplant (1" HG MP =~ 1000' equivalent change, for example)...what this means is that if the FJR is similar, then the ECU may never see the same barometric pressure from the airbox sensor running at full throttle as it would when stopped...Yamaha could correct for that somewhat with an ECU look-up table or algorithims taking into account throttle position, engine speed, and intake temperature, and maybe they have tried...re-installing a GENI baro sensor, and forgetting the existing tables/algorithims that apparently don't work, would fix it.

Or, if you now have problems while scooting and have a clear run with little following traffic, pull in the clutch, cycle the red kill switch off and back on long enough to completely stop the engine, then smoothly let the clutch out in gear restarting the engine with a new baro reading sent to the ECU...PIA but should work if the reset proceedure for the ECU functions with that restart process...someone try it and let others know?

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[AGirl]

And those of you who bought from D and H in Alabama.... Have you contacted them? Gerald seems to be very honest in my dealings, and I wondered what they would say?

Ironically I was at D&H today, which is where I bought my FJR. I experienced the altitude sickness in APRIL (and reported specific details on the forum in this link: HERE) when I was going through New Mexico. I was heading to New England at the time but rerouted to AL just to get the bike back to D&H, where Jerrold & crew (Nick, Blake) did evaluate it. Not surprisingly, the problem wasn't replicated at their 800 feet above sea level location though they never questioned my experiences or doubted a problem existed in the least. Once I got back into elevation it became obvious the issue was related to altitude and I exchanged phone calls w/Jerrold several times after that to discuss the elevation culprit. I've not kept tabs on this issue over the last 10 weeks because I was out on a different bike and hoped (as D&H and everyone else who gives a rat's azz about their customers has) that Yamaha would respond... and do so sooner than later.

Based on the experiences some of you are reporting w/other dealerships, it appears Yamaha has a much bigger issue than just altitude sick 2007 FJRs. Those reportd make me sick. For those who are posting specific names/dealers to AVOID, I am grateful. As someone who regularly criss-crosses the country, it's helpful to me to know where NOT to go when a problem arises. :stop:

I can't wait for the day when this thread is closed because the issue has been resolved!! :yahoo:

AGirl

 

[ELP_JC]

I can't wait for the day when this thread is closed because the issue has been resolved!!

Amen! Hopefully soon.

 

[codemonkey]

Thanks all for replying to my question about WOT providing any kind of fix. Such a shame, I test rode a KTM 990 today and that thing had serious FI issues just going down the street. Can any of the manufacturers get FI right?

I think I'll just sit on any bike purchase through the winter and hope that Yamaha can get this right. If they are listening, this is costing them potential sales.

 

[Medium Al]

Couple of points here.

There is (or was) a Dilbert-esque management view in the manufacturing industry regarding programming digital control systems and the relative value to a product or project. And that view was that they were "only software", so little time or money was spent on developing them. In automotive applicatioins they used to just buy packaged systems from someone like Bosch. Even high end germans like BMW and Porsche. I was told by a chip tuner who ought to know (Jim Conforti) that a 95 BMW M3 and a 95 Porsche 911 have exactly the same fuel and ignition tables. They bought the same system from Bosch. One is a straight 6 water cooled eninge, the other a flat six air cooled. No way are these engines going to run optimally with the same fuel/ignition tables. Well there's about 20-25 HP just lying there in the engine when you dyno tune the system for each particular engine, and loads of improvement in drivability/throttle response. Oh yeah and still meets emissions. I know because I have one (95 M3).

The other management view is they are fascinated by gadgets, while at the same time not paying anything for writing good software to control them well. We are very familiar with that, as Yamaha spent countless $$ developing the semi-automatic tranny for the AE, and I'd bet the A owners just got a hacked version of the bare bones ECU they threw together for it. I mean look at all the fancy gadgets on Yamaha's other bikes. Throttle by wire, variable length intakes, etc. All of which are cool but have electronics which suck with loads of drivability problems. I would go so far as to speculate that maybe the poor reviews of the AE are not because of the new tranny, but the lousy controller software. Which as I said before the A owners probably inherited with few or no mods. I would also speculate that one reason the baro sensor was eliminated might be they needed that input to the controller for AE reasons, and were to cheap to add more inputs. So we got a crude hack to "estimate" the missing sensor's input. Perfect solution for bean counter types.

Finally you throw tighter emissions standards on top of this lazy, retarded management view, and they want something to meet global emissions (translation: one size fits all ie cheap). It's a wonder the bike even runs.

Now companies like Honda and Kawasaki have discovered that good FI systems are essential to the customers perceived quality of the product. Yamaha clearly has not, based on the on-going FI problems with the FJR, FZ1, R1, and R6. And their slow response to customer complaints on ALL of those bikes.

Al

 

[canyonman]

I recently completed a 3600 mile trip through several western states. I crossed the continental divide several times and also summited Mt. Evans at 14,000 feet. I knew ahead of time from this forum what to expect and my 2007 did indeed exhibit the loss of throttle response/ surging. I was with 4 other riders who were all on cruisers so it was casual riding.

Knowing ahead of time what to expect helped alot. Everytime the bike would start to show signs of surging I would wait till I was in a good place to do so then I would thumb the kill switch, kill it and restart it all on the fly. The other bikes I was leading never even noticed a problem. The road to the top of Mt. Evans had slush and ice on it as well as 4000 foot drop offs but staying ahead of the problem made it all good.

The bottom line is if you know ahead of time what to expect and how to deal with it in a proactive way it really becomes a non-issue.

Don't get me wrong for $13,000 I want the sum-bitch right but I would not hesitate to take this bike anywhere. It freakin rocks!

Showed more than one diehard HD fan the light. my tail light that is!

One more thing, I live in the St. Louis area (no mountains) so before the trip I ran down to deals gap and the smoky mountains just to feel the surge so I would know what to expect. That also helped reduce any anxiety I was having about the issue

 

[timalan]

I just talked to my local dealer.... He wanted my S/N from the bike and said he would check on it. Very friendly ... No doubts in my problem and he said he'd check. And I would get an answer.

 

[painman]

Just to clarify is the early vin numbers or bikes built in early 07 the ones with the surge or are the bikes that have the surge happening at random as far as numbers? From another post sounds like many 07's not having this problem that were built later in the production year. Or, are the one's not having the surge problem never had their bike up to the right altitude? PM. <><

 

[rangerray]

I just talked to my local dealer.... He wanted my S/N from the bike and said he would check on it. Very friendly ... No doubts in my problem and he said he'd check. And I would get an answer.

You are fortunate. Be sure and give him good reviews to your friends.

 

[Bob Hughes]

Just to clarify is the early vin numbers or bikes built in early 07 the ones with the surge or are the bikes that have the surge happening at random as far as numbers? From another post sounds like many 07's not having this problem that were built later in the production year. Or, are the one's not having the surge problem never had their bike up to the right altitude? PM. <><

Here is the post by TruWrecks in another thread:

Updated 07/21/2007 by TruWrecks - Yamaha identifies the cause
***Yamaha has identified the cause of the surging.***

Yamaha has admitted that they removed the sensor in the 2007 that samples the air pressure during operation (The 2006 has this sensor). They now only have one sensor to sample air pressure, and it only takes a reading shortly after the engine starts. It does not take a reading again until the bike is turned off, then back on, hence the need to restart your bikes when it starts acting up. This means that ALL 2007 FJR's will eventually have a problem with altitude.

For those of you who have patiently waited, and helped me collect information, the following is my findings for what I have compiled:

2006:

45-1744 have reported sporadic issues, but no consistent pattern, less the two last in the group. The VINs from lower ranges of the California bikes also show no trend. These appear to be anomalies.

2007:

385-3350 are bikes that appear to have a trend for surging/throttle response issues with altitude changes of ~1000' or greater while ascending or descending. I did get a few members with VINs over 3400 that are reporting surging, but no apparent trend.

Currently 53 2007's from FJRForum.com members have reported surging ranging from subtle to severe symptoms. I have only been told of one bike in this range that DOES NOT have any issues with elevation change. That bike appears to be the exception. The lower end of this range (385-709) are all California spec bikes to my knowledge. I have had one reported bike from the UK with a 4900 VIN that also has the surging behavior.

I will be releasing my findings to Yamaha. Several of involved owners have have demonstrated how/when surging and throttle latency is likely to occur. I even have a short video to show just how much throttle latency I get on my FJR when it exhibits the behavior (I haven't had any feedback on that either from Yamaha). Yamaha should now have all the information they need to get this corrected.

I'll update this post as I get more information.

Resources by request:

Yamaha Motor USA - Customer Relations (800) 962-7926

NHTSA "File A Complaint"

Autopedia - Lemon Law Links

When I read this I thought that there might be some hope for the late 07's, still do.

 

[twistedcricket]

I have my 4k service scheduled for this Saturday. I'll ask if they know of an update. It's a small-town dealership and he mainly sells quads and cruisers, but he was excited to have sold his 3rd brand new FJR when I picked mine up.

I worked with the owner and before I signed the papers he walked me through his service department, parts area and went over the entire bike. I have no reason to believe he'd deny anything and I think he would at least call Yamaha.

 

[v65]

re-installing a GENI baro sensor, and forgetting the existing tables/algorithims that apparently don't work, would fix it.

Don't work based on what? My Gen II runs just fine. This has been discussed numerous times, from what I have read the problems are limited to a certain VIN range.