Altitude surging on 07 fix

[ELP_JC]

Well, took my bike to the mountains for the 2nd time yesterday, after a full TB synch (plates and idle), premium fuel, 1,100 rpm idle, and CO levels back to stock. Bike ran much better on the way there, and even with custom pegs, didn't get any tingling on my hands or feet, but it's definitely not cured. Everything was going great up to 3/4 of the 4,670' climb, which I did somewhat aggressively, as suggested, and it worked. But am glad I caught a slow truck, or I'd have declared the stumbling 'inconsequential'. It wasn't; on the contrary, it was plain dangerous. For the first time, had to slow down where I could only get to 3,500 rpm on first, and motor almost stalled several times; absolutely no power, and bike was bucking like a wild bronco. And worst of all, I had nowhere to pull over to restart. Any slower, and I'd had had to rev the crap out of the engine and slip the clutch to be able to move, like some folks have reported. Fortunately could pass the truck right away, or would have smoked my clutch.

So yes, the 'aggressive' climbing works, but it's unrealistic not to hit a slow truck, or other slow traffic on any inclined road. If you don't have the speed to keep the motor above 4K rpms, you're in trouble. It's enough of a safety hazard that I won't do my CO trip (can't imagine having this problem on my way to Ouray), which is a shame because that was the reason I bought the '07. Oh well. Need to wait until Yamaha steps up to the plate.

On the positive side, bike ran fantastic once restarted up there. With the suspension adjustment changes I made, and preload on 'hard', I tackled the twisties at the speeds I like, and didn't drag anything (no feelers anymore, so it'd have been hard parts), so I'm a happy camper in that department. And even with stock CO settings, I didn't find the off/on throttle transition a problem at all (thanks Throttle Rocker). And Sargent seat made a big difference, as well as the TM, so all I need to have a great sport-touring bike is the damn fueling issue fixed. And that same issue makes it the worst I've ever had because I can't use it. I have a few more months to wait since the next 4 months are the ones I have to work my butt off. Hope it's resolved by February, to start my riding season touring to Big Bend, AZ 191, and TX Hill Country. Later gang.

JC

 

[TruWrecks]

I found this interesting statement on the Yamaha site for the 2008 FJR:

"Advanced fuel injection system is ideal for long-distance supersport-touring, delivering crisp, seamless throttle response in a variety of altitude/weather conditions."

It looks like we helped Yamaha identify things to improve the FI map after all. I'd really like to get my 07 fixed, but I'll take an 08 in trade. I can live with the color easier than the surging. I just finished a ride down the Oregon coast this week. I almost pitched the bike over a cliff a few times. You can't ride HWY 101 like your on an R1 when you have multiple RV encounters every few miles. It was great until I had to slow down. Also, I almost dumped the FJR going over a mountain pass on my way to see side. I was not riding in a spirited fashion because that's not safe to do when it's dark and the roads a wet. I fought the bike through a corner while it was surging harshly. The bike would start falling into the corner, so I would add more throttle. The throttle wouldn't respond until I made a big adjustment, then the bike would try to stand up in the corner. Repeat four or five times in the same corner and you have one very soiled set of shorts. :blink: When I stopped my brother, who was following me on an XJ550 Maxim, asked what all the moving around in the corner was. He thought I was going to crash a few times. I considered it more dangerous than the deer that stopped in the middle of the road later that night. I could at least see that coming.

Cheers.

 

[ELP_JC]

It was great until I had to slow down.

Same here. I was almost at the top of the 4,600' mountain climb, and only a couple of mild jerks. I thought the full synch job, premium fuel, raised idle, stock CO levels, had something to do with it, but apparently it was only the climbing in a spirited fashion. Once I slowed down due to an RV, which I didn't have to do last time, man, was it BAAAAAAD. I was fortunate enough that I could still reach 3,500 rpms in 1st; no way in hell I'd have kept the bike going at anything less than that. Completely unresponsive, horrible gear-crunching jerking (due to drive-line lash), and nowhere where to pull over. And I was right behind the damn RV, so this only went on for a minute or so. Can't imagine having to endure this for any longer period of time. Passing the RV was interesting, by the way.

Bottom line is riding aggressively almost eliminates the problem indeed, but expecting to find clear mountain roads wherever you go is totally unrealistic. And in most mountain roads I travel there's little to no place where to pull over at will. Needless to say, cancelled my CO/UT trip, which was the reason I bought the '07 bike.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the '08s. I really like this bike, and we know our problem is fixed on '08s, so it's time to start pressuring Yamaha again for either a fix or a new bike. Will start myself right now; I've waited patiently for official news, and still nothing. At least there's a new avenue for us to pursue on the '08 bikes, which happen to be in the color I wanted all along. Hope everybody else starts the b*tching again. Just called my dealer's owner, and he'll be back tomorrow from the dealer's meeting, so will pay him a visit as the first step. Later.

JC

 

[WRichStrom]

I had the best intentions for Yamaha but I am doubting they are going to replace/reflash/whatever the ECU that is causing the problems probably because of bean counters. I do believe Yamaha has known all along what had changed from '06 and the fix. Maybe TruWrecks has the right idea. Know anyone who wants to buy an '07 FJR with 4900 miles excellent condition? I believe now that the '06 and prior or '08 is the way to go and '07 will have this stigma associated with it (right or wrong).

I did find it difficult going up to Crater Lake and down from Crater Lake to Medford. Kind of stinks when when I had to slow down for a car/motorhome and then I just didn't have anything on the throttle. I even had a Ultra-Classic pass me during the hesitation phase. On the flat ground this bike though is awesome. To bad we have this issue.

 

[Medium Al]

I found this interesting statement on the Yamaha site for the 2008 FJR:
"Advanced fuel injection system is ideal for long-distance supersport-touring, delivering crisp, seamless throttle response in a variety of altitude/weather conditions."

It looks like we helped Yamaha identify things to improve the FI map after all.

Or they just hired some advertising guy to write that copy and have not fixed a thing. Remember, these are the same folks who advertised a 18000 rpm redline on the R6 a while back. Which was a blatant lie/fabrication and they had to buy back the bikes.

 

[dean]

fjr1300a purchased in 2/07, appears to fall within the serial numbers listed for potential problem bikes.

this past week was at tellico plains, tn (what, about 1000'?) over the cherohala (max 5500' feet), deals gap, (unk), franklin, robbinsville, back over the cherohala, no surging problems noted.

i will still be monitoring this thread for updates and mamayama's response.

 

[TruWrecks]

At the rate Yamaha is moving it will be 2008, and the end of a VERY frustrating riding season here before the release any fix, if they do it at all! I do enjoy the bike in most riding conditions, but not where I really enjoy riding, in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest. I live within 40 miles of some of the most beautiful roads in the nation, and I have to worry about "the next time" the bike may act up. It's always a poor outcome when you hold an almost perfect line in the corner, at a relaxed pace, and you end up having to wrestle the bike just as you pass the apex. You have two options. Risk running off inside, or running off outside. Both can have really horrid results.

At least I'm in the middle of a divorce, so my wife won't sure Yamaha if I die in a head-on collision during an altitude related fit!

HELLO YAMAHA!!! IS ANYBODY OUT THERE???? I'VE BEEN HEARING "Two weeks to a month" FOR ABOUT SIX WEEKS NOW! I think the seven months that Yamaha has know of this issue in plenty of time to fix it. I still have time in Washington to use the "Lemon Law".

 

[SkooterG]

I am with Medium Al. While I am hopeful Yammie has corrected this issue for the 08s, I am no way confident they did so based on their advertising hyperbole. Jury is still out as far as I am concerned - and will be, until a decent sample of 08s have been run through their paces.

And hopefully, Yammie will have something for all you 07 owners with the problem soon.

Here's a question: Why not trade in, or sell, your problem 07 FJRs for and 03-06 FJR that runs right? I realize you shouldn't have to, but that's a relatively simple solution.

 

[uctofeej]

Here's a question: Why not trade in, or sell, your problem 07 FJRs for and 03-06 FJR that runs right? I realize you shouldn't have to, but that's a relatively simple solution.

Got one for sale, Skooter? Slightly used with only 11K added on 'er in the last few weeks?

Seriously, there's an '04 at a local dealer... really tempting if Yama ain't gonna fix it soon.

 

[Medium Al]

I am with Medium Al. While I am hopeful Yammie has corrected this issue for the 08s, I am no way confident they did so based on their advertising hyperbole. Jury is still out as far as I am concerned - and will be, until a decent sample of 08s have been run through their paces.
And hopefully, Yammie will have something for all you 07 owners with the problem soon.

Here's a question: Why not trade in, or sell, your problem 07 FJRs for and 03-06 FJR that runs right? I realize you shouldn't have to, but that's a relatively simple solution.

As far as selling or trading it in. Have you seen what new 07 A's are going for? 11K flat. I paid 12.6K and it has 4K miles. Selling/trading now will carry the full depreciation due to the altitude problem, especially given where I live (Boulder).

Also there's a liability/karma issue what with selling something you know to be defective or even in this case quite dangerous, again consider where I live and where the new owner would ride. I have reported the problem to the feds. Anybody dies on this thing it comes back to me I'd feel pretty bad and be f*cked as well. Or I can disclose it in writing and then never sell it. I'll wait until Yamaha puts out a fix, let the market reprice, and then consider a trade/sale. I have worked out a way to ride it which minimizes problems. Not as enjoyable as it should be but not as bad as working either.

 

[Neil San Diego]

With regards to selling or trading in, I've put alot of $$ and time into getting my 07 farkled just right for me. I'd rather not do that all again so soon.

Anxiously waiting to see what mamayama does...

 

[timalan]

Is there a Lawyer among us???

 

[twowheelnut]

Is there a Lawyer among us???

Don't even go there. :glare: Yamaha fixes the tickers, they'll get this right, too.

 

[rangerray]

Anyway, thanks for the info on the '08s. I really like this bike, and we know our problem is fixed on '08s, so it's time to start pressuring Yamaha again for either a fix or a new bike. Will start myself right now; I've waited patiently for official news, and still nothing. At least there's a new avenue for us to pursue on the '08 bikes, which happen to be in the color I wanted all along. Hope everybody else starts the b*tching again. Just called my dealer's owner, and he'll be back tomorrow from the dealer's meeting, so will pay him a visit as the first step. Later.JC

If I haven't heard anything by the time I get back home, next Monday I'm calling my fucked up dealer and telling him that I want the entire bike replaced under warranty. If the dealer can't fix it (and he can't), then they need to give me one that runs correctly.

 

[Bob Hughes]

Is there a Lawyer among us???

Don't even go there. :glare: Yamaha fixes the tickers, they'll get this right, too.

I sure looks that way and way faster than Honda does too, they took years to fix simple things on my GL1800.

 

[LarsBo]

Jeez, sorry to see that TruWrecks' patience is wearing thin with Yamaha on the FI/surging issue, it was his "knowing but cant' tell" attitude that gave me faith that a fix was on the way and probably that it would be sooner not later.

Trade-in? My 07 FJR, while not perfect, is the most enjoyable ride I've ever been on. The thought of trading this off for another bike is not a pleasant one - considering all of the farkles (Corbin Seat - MCL Triple Clamp etc.; translation=mucho dinero). But most importantly this is a great fun bike especially while riding at the same elevation, LOL.

I mentioned earlier my bad experience with an Orange County Yamaha dealer and apparently some Orange County dealer showed up in another thread to imply that this Forum is basically part of the problem not the fix. Implying that by reading about someone else's issue you may think you need a fix too. Internet hysteria or moto-hypochondria? I say it must be dealer-dip-waditis I believe Freud wrote extensively about this condition way back around the turn of the last century.

As an intelligent guy I have developed a passive tolerance when at the hands of the mediocre masses. Don't get me wrong, even though I'm a happy tolerant guy; I still don't like having some dip-wad talk down to me like I'm an undeveloped, unevolved barely conscious pond scum.

For the sake of Yamaha and associates, I didn't read about an altitude (or attitude) problem and then "psychosomatically" acquire that symptom. I went mountain riding, developed a sympton, and then came online to discover what it was and determine when and where I can get it fixed. Hey, Yamaha fix me or tell me how I can get it done myself. 3rd party ECU rewrites?

I've since become further enlightened with the information read here regarding the nature of the problem. As a Control Systems Engineer I can appreciate the complexity of the problem including politics. I'm not jumping up and down and demanding anything; I just want a fair shot of getting a fix quickly. Along the way if it included being treated with respect from the dealer network - well that would be a plus too. As of now however, I don't feel safe in the mountains with my FJR or talking to some of the Yamaha dealer service reps.

For the record, the day I took my FJR up in the mountains I encountered severe Friday morning traffic congestion, people going uphill for the weekend to the LA mountain resorts. This was exacerbated by a County "Survey Crew" taking civil measurements and blocking one lane on a two lane road. This was a day where the conditions completely dictated my speed and it was slow to no-go.

You know the routine move ahead 30-50 feet at a time, stop and wait, move ahead another 30-50 feet. The bike would stall, not restart easily and then I'd have to run the RPMs up to 4-5000 and feather the clutch to make it go a few more feet without stalling. Then start the whole thing over. Then traffic eventually picked up and it was a steady variable slow crawl of 5-25 mph - this made matters worse.

It was a long couple of hours with my wife on the back wondering what the hell was going on. Probably the worst set of conditions for the faulty FI controller to handle under the circumstances.

Did you see the postulation, that due to some new requirements (EPA?) imposed on Yamaha, they needed to reprogram and add inputs to the 07 FI controller? They implied that as a result they may have used the baro sensor input for something else. Perhaps there was political pressure to make a schedule and they became rushed. Perhaps they intended to have the other baro sensor serve dual duty in the program but someone forgot to finish that part of the code rewrite. Seems like a pretty likely scenario to me.

 

[timalan]

Is there a Lawyer among us???

Don't even go there. :glare: Yamaha fixes the tickers, they'll get this right, too.

Well that is good to know.... I was just curious. I am willing to wait for a fix. I went to arkansas this weekend and rode the crap outa the FJR. I also saw three others, One leading a group of harleys and cruisers. one at a Cafe in Jasper. and one haulin rear in the other direction ....It runs great close to home.... but , I would be pi$$ed if I lived in a mountain state. I also would like it fixed before next years mexico to canada on the Mountain range summer tour. Like I said mine ran like hell when in Co. And NM.

 

[Medium Al]

Did you see the postulation, that due to some new requirements (EPA?) imposed on Yamaha, they needed to reprogram and add inputs to the 07 FI controller? They implied that as a result they may have used the baro sensor input for something else. Perhaps there was political pressure to make a schedule and they became rushed. Perhaps they intended to have the other baro sensor serve dual duty in the program but someone forgot to finish that part of the code rewrite. Seems like a pretty likely scenario to me.

Quick summary. I believe it was Mick who tracked this down? Gen II vs. Gen I: Gen I had two pressure sensors, one ambient P and the other MAP (manifold absolute pressure). It also had a pressure regulator on one of the sensors (maybe a low pass filter?). Gen II eliminated the ambient P sensor and the regulator. You can see this clearly when comparing factory diagrams for Gen I vs. Gen II. Gen II 07 vs 06 had some software changes in order to meet global emissions. Speculation is that this is one of those confabulations of multi-cause f*ck ups & corner-cutting that yield a problem like we have now. Which would not have been so bad except for the denials and ass-covering, and general abuse of loyal customers.

I have speculated that instead of writing a new FI controller from scratch for a MAP-only system, they instead tried to replace an input channel with a software estimate of that missing sensor's input. I say this beacuse there are plenty of MAP-only systems that work just fine. I also believe that development of the auto gearbox used up quite a lot of real esate on the controller and required more inputs than were initially available, which may be why one P sensor was eliminated in the first place. Who knows.

I also worked in control systems for a while and saw this sort of thinking quite often.

 

[dwilli]

I talked to the Service Writer at Altus Motorsports where I got my 07 FJR, he called Yamaha then called me back. In a nutshell what he told me was, Yamaha knows there is a problem with all 07's. It is a result of a sensor which was eliminated as a cost cutting measure. Yamaha considers the surging problem as normal for this year model. Yamaha is not or will not fix this problem.

How's it feel to get *ucked?

Yamaha Customer Service

800-635-0736

 

[Ignacio]

I talked to the Service Writer at Altus Motorsports where I got my 07 FJR, he called Yamaha then called me back.

Thirdhand information? Sure would be nice to have an actual name at Yamaha that said this.