Back to suspension issues

[Dangerous Dave]

The cost of 2 motorcycles to have state of the art suspension dampers is now $1200.  And the quality of the components is much better than upgrading the valves on the OEM cartridge bodies.  <snip>

Max has publicly stated he'll put them up against any fork at any price.  He also proved it at the racetrack this year at many places all over the world.

I'm not disputing the value of the AK-20s, I just can't afford them unless Mr. McAllister is willing to let me pay for them on the E-Z payment plan (5 bucks a week for the next 4 years). Now that my daughter is in college, I have to magically pull $20K/year out of my sphincter for the next several years. Kinda puts the AKs pretty far down ye old priority list. That doesn't mean I have to deprive myself of EVERYTHING, I just have to choose ALOT more wisely and make a few compromises. I'm afraid my stock cartridges will have to do for a few more years. That is an interesting perspective you have though.

 

[sportryder]

Dave, I know you are on a tight budget. I presented the information in my last post because many folks have never heard of Traxxion Dynamics and what we bring to the table for suspension components.

That's the only reason I responded to the "lose my lunch" comment. I wanted to share the information. We are very excited about that product. Not only because it's a very high quality piece, and is made in-house, but it is also a very good buy compared to other similar products in the marketplace.

I'm kinda going on the assumption that the Axxion valves are simply Traxxion's iteration of the R/T Gold valves.

This isn't really true. The Axxion valve assemblies are drop in components whereas R/T valving for the FZ1 and FJR are pistons with shims and spacers that must be mounted up to the OEM holders after machining is completed. Unless R/T has updated their kits to include the holders, and they come preassembled like ours, it is still that way. You get what you pay for. R/T has a great piston design. I have seen them and they are very well crafted. I can't say anything bad about them because they make very good stuff and we use them in some of the larger diameter cartridge bodies. Their products offer owners a less expensive alternative to the fork revalving/respringing upgrade for those folks wishing to do all of the work themselves. Max decided years ago not to sell his valve assemblies because too many owners were damaging their cartridge bodies, or assembling/installing the valving improperly and then bad-mouthing TD saying it was a crappy product. He wasn't going to risk his rep because his product was installed improperly or something was damaged by the owner/installer. Sometimes, saving a few dollars can be very painful in the end result.

I remember the first year I worked in the service bay. A set of forks arrived partially disassembled. A cartridge body was wrapped separately in a towel. Unwrapping the towel revealed an aluminum cart. body that had been heated at the bottom with an oxy/acetelene torch to "fry" the loctite at that theaded part in the cartridge body. It's amazing the lack of understanding some folks have regarding these components.

Well, that's enough of my rambling.

 

[BlackB12]

Yeah Max told me that same thing, that most people who bought his product would bitch up the install then complain. Unfortunately for those of us that like to wrench on our own bikes both to save money, and because we enjoy wrenching, have only one option: Racetech. I just got a quote from Max for the Axxion compression valve, rebound valve, springs, seals, oil... for $799.00, or the AK20 cartridge for $1000. While that's pricey, I imagine close to half that cost is labor. This is why I think I will go the RT route. However, i keep hearing how RT uses smaller diameter springs that crunch or click when compressed in forks. On the other hand I'd be saving a lot of money over Traxxion. I haven't called Lindeman yet but I imagine they're close to Traxxion's prices since they do the entire installation.

Does anyone know if the rebound valve from RT is necessary? With my last bike I didn't need to install one and the fork worked incredibly well.

Mike

 

[sportryder]

Does anyone know if the rebound valve from RT is necessary? With my last bike I didn't need to install one and the fork worked incredibly well.

Upgrading the springs on the FJR will require one or two things to take place - Change oil weight to heavier type (not good for the compression side even when revalved) or change the rebound valve assembly.

I just got a quote from Max for the Axxion compression valve, rebound valve, springs, seals, oil... for $799.00, or the AK20 cartridge for $1000. While that's pricey, I imagine close to half that cost is labor.

Here's the breakdown:

compression valve assemblies (includes in-house machined and hard-coat anodized pistons and holders) - $200

rebound valve assemblies (includes in-house SS machined holders and anodized pistons) - $225

TD OMNI springs - $109.95

TD OMNI spring buffer kit - $14.95

Maxima Synthetic Cartridge Fork oil 125/150 (7 wt) - $12.45 per Qt. - Included

Fork Seals - $24.95

Bushings not included, but if needed are $14.95 each.

Labor - $200-$225 depending on the job and what is required during the install.

Labor includes - full disassembly with a thorough cleaning and inspection of all parts and components. Measuring fork tubes for straightness, polishing the tubes so they look like no human hand ever touched them (like new), inspection of OEM cartridge bodies, cartridge rods and cartridge bushings, reassembly with new valves and holders, cut spacers precisely so there is the proper amount of internal spring preload for the springs and the weight of the motorcycle. Setup and test forks to insure rebound and compression valving is working properly, adjust dampers and spring external preload for riding style/purpose of motorcycle and weight of rider. All of this is approximately 3 + hours of work for an experienced tech.

I've done all of this to at least 100 sets of forks in the past 2 years, and I know it isn't easy or "quick" work. When the forks are returned to the customer, they work worlds better than when new and look as good as new unless they arrived at the shop in poor condition already. We do our best to make them like new in those cases.

Now, what are the other shops doing for your $600 or less worth of work? Like I've said before, you get what you pay for.

Sorry if I appear upset but after doing this kind of work for nearly 2 years, and learning how the "experts" do it I realized it is worth every penny to have it done correctly and by someone that truely cares about the final results. I learned how there are 100 + ways to damage the cartridges during disassembly or assembly and you wouldn't even know you did it. The customer would know it, with the poor performance. Proper tools, attention to detail, experience in working with the sometimes delicate components, knowing how to leak check valve assemblies etc, etc. There is a lot to know about this stuff and I quickly learned how much there is to know about it. I had been wrenching and tuning on motorcycles and cars (when I had to) for over 30 years before I ever went to work for Max.

Sure, all of the above could be done by someone good with their hands, tools and also knows what to look for and how to handle the components. Don't believe for a minute though that it's simple stuff and it will forgive you should you make a mistake. A simple thing like knowing how and where to clamp the cartridge body so the compression valve assembly can be unthreaded from it or how and where to clamp the cartridge rod so the rebound valve assembly could be removed from it are not so simple things. I've seen evidence of other techs working on those same parts (from older race bikes) and I know they caused damage to those parts because they either didn't care what they were doing or didn't know the correct procedure.

All I'm trying to say here is be very careful when you try to save yourself some $$. You may or may not get exactly what you've paid for. :bigeyes:

 

[BlackB12]

I hear ya and see where you're coming from. I never said TD was a ripoff, it's just expensive for me personally. And yes, I know the learning curve for working on forks is STEEP, and many make stupid mistakes ruining their forks. For my first install of RT components on my Bandit 1200 all went like clockwork and the results, at least to me, were superb to stock. If my ship comes in I will most likely go the TD route, but for now I'm trying to find as much info as possible on RT, and I think you answered my question, that the FJR will need both the RT compression and rebound assemblies.

Mike