Braking in a curve / Improving my riding

[mcatrophy]

And if you really want to try something fun, learn to steer while the ABS is pumping.. I forced myself to learn this skill, overcoming the fear factor, and now I can't believe what a wonderful advanced technique it is to have the toolbox.

Some while back I asked the question, "Does the ABS help you brake to the limit in a corner?". No-one seemed able to give an answer. This partially answers it, but you are on the brakes then initiate a steering movement. I still want to know (and am too chicken to try) what happens if you are already cornering reasonably hard, then you apply a lot of braking? Does the tyre slide away before the ABS kicks in, or is it all nicely controllable? Or something in-between?

One other point that I don't seem to have seen in this thread. If you are really interested in safety, we are taught on this side of the pond to always drive at a speed such that you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear. However well you know the road, there is always the possibility of some dork parked, broken down/changing a flat/admiring the view/p*ssing on the shoulder, let alone a puddle of diesel, a dead bambi or whatever, just round the corner.

One of the ways to make good and safe progress is to practice vanishing point riding. If the road you can see to be clear is getting closer to you, slow down. If it's receding from you, you can speed up. Once you get into this groove, you can really flow through any sort of road, smoothly and safely.

 

[RaYzerman19]

There is a Lee Parks course in my future. Just to increase your knowledge base, try following a known good rider in the twisties. Those with skill are smoother, yet still keep a fast pace. But there's only a handful of them. I followed Johnd at the last Ohio Ramble, and he has to be the smoothest I've seen, good lines, kept a spirited pace and rode safe. Bungie has some real solid advice. Try following him sometime. Watch, learn. No substitute for the Lee Parks courses, but a lesson nonetheless.

And I don't care what his GPS is tellling him.........

Of course the other technique is to drop a gear, let the Feej rev up and use engine braking in the twisties. Better control. If you're not faster, at least you'll sound faster.

 

[Bungie]

There is a Lee Parks course in my future. Just to increase your knowledge base, try following a known good rider in the twisties. Those with skill are smoother, yet still keep a fast pace. But there's only a handful of them. I followed Johnd at the last Ohio Ramble, and he has to be the smoothest I've seen, good lines, kept a spirited pace and rode safe. Bungie has some real solid advice. Try following him sometime. Watch, learn. No substitute for the Lee Parks courses, but a lesson nonetheless. And I don't care what his GPS is tellling him.........

Of course the other technique is to drop a gear, let the Feej rev up and use engine braking in the twisties. Better control. If you're not faster, at least you'll sound faster.

Well thanks Ray, but I think I still suck. But I'm working on it. JohnD is very smooth.

My first trip with the FJR down to EOM in 2008 at Lewisburg WV was a real eye opener for me. I spent the night in Bradford PA at Andy's place. Never met the guy before, but he opened up his home to me. A *VERY* good rider. We rode down 219 and just after we entered WV he pulled us over on the side of the road and explained that he wanted to have a bit of fun, he'd wait for me up ahead if I got behind. Ya right I thought, but I promised I'd ride my own ride.

That man left me for dust.

I'd never seen anybody ride that effortlessly before. Flick flick gone. Amazing.

True to his word he stopped up ahead and then told me to lead. I took it easy but still at spirited pace. That night in Lewisburg he pulled me aside and gave me a crash course on riding in the mountains so I wouldn't give myself a 'crash' course. I learned a ton in 30 minutes from him and I spent the rest of the weekend in the company of some very good riders which was a humbling experience when you always thought you were at least pretty good. What is funny that the local guys up here think I ride fantastic. It's all about what you're comparing too.

Ever follow somebody riding two up on the Dragon (fubar) and they ride better two up than you can solo?

Anyway, your last line isn't very good advice, although I tend to ride that way. The problem is that very few of us, myself included, are smooth enough on the throttle in the middle of a corner to avoid upsetting the bike with engine braking.

. I'm riding the style you're advocating. I'm not kicking it's *** on the straightaways, just running a bit of a pace through the corners. You can here me chop the throttle more than a few times. Nearly every time you hear that, you'll hear the pegs scrape. Mike is running pretty damn hard in this vid though
Oh, btw, forward this link to Jeff, it's the pics from our level 2 session. I don't have his email and am not sure of his handle here. Get his *** down to EOM with us!

 

[Goodman4]

Loved the video, Bungie. Yeah, this is a little faster than I ride, but I was thinking, man that road would be fun. Then I saw the rocks by the switchback and I went, "wait a minute!" and looked closer at the post. Yep, I did Tazewell to Marion earlier this year. Opposite direction of your video, I think, but that was a blast.

You know I felt kind of stupid asking the braking question at first, but now I'm really glad I asked. In the last couple days since posting, I've posed it to a few friends with a experience and they all say the same thing, "I learned I was never to use the brake on the curve, but I still have to do it frequently not to get in trouble". I think this makes Nick's point very strongly that if we are going to find ourselves in situations where we need the technique, we should learn how to do it correctly and add to our ability instead of just thinking, "well I screwed that up" and still keep doing the same thing. I hope I'm not paraphrasing his point too much.

As to the Total Control classes, I've talked with the instructors of both the Georgetown, KY and Nashville, TN classes. They both seem like really nice and knowledgeable guys. The Nashville class on October 5th is only an hour and a half away so it makes a lot more sense, but the Georgetown class is on August 31 with plenty of slots still open. That's over three hours away, but I'm chomping at the bit now, so I don't know if I should wait. Both instructors said I "could" do the level I and level 2 classes back to back, but it was common to have overload on the second day if you aren't a quick learner. They recommended I just do one and then the second later. I am a fairly quick mental learner, but it's hard to teach an old dog's body new tricks and I probably have a lot of bad habits to break. I forget which of the instructors told me this, but he said he did them back to back when he first learned and halfway through the second day he was overwhelmed. The instructor said his "chip was full", so he had to stop and get it the next time.

 

[yamafitter]

One of my problems is to get it into my head that the FJR is NOT a dirt bike. I have over 40 years of Enduro and Cross Country racing experience which does help when it comes to throttle and brake control. I didn't even want a street bike until I was in my 50's so my street riding experience is limited in comparison. If there is one thing I can bring over from my dirt bike background is the need to be smooth when you are trying to develop a rhythm in the twisties so the bike goes not get upset and braking at the turn in point to load the front wheel and keep it planted. This is even more important on a dirt bike where sometimes front wheel traction may be limited due to terrain.

The main thing I try to guard against is letting some of my other dirt bike skill set sneak into my street riding. For this it is lessons and lots of practise to ingrain the muscle motor responses. My dirt bike skill set is always going to come to the fore in a panic situation since those skills are so ingrained so my only recourse is to practise at a pace that allows me to build my street skills but not go so far as to get into panic situations.

 

[Bungie]

As to the Total Control classes, I've talked with the instructors of both the Georgetown, KY and Nashville, TN classes. They both seem like really nice and knowledgeable guys. The Nashville class on October 5th is only an hour and a half away so it makes a lot more sense, but the Georgetown class is on August 31 with plenty of slots still open. That's over three hours away, but I'm chomping at the bit now, so I don't know if I should wait. Both instructors said I "could" do the level I and level 2 classes back to back, but it was common to have overload on the second day if you aren't a quick learner. They recommended I just do one and then the second later. I am a fairly quick mental learner, but it's hard to teach an old dog's body new tricks and I probably have a lot of bad habits to break. I forget which of the instructors told me this, but he said he did them back to back when he first learned and halfway through the second day he was overwhelmed. The instructor said his "chip was full", so he had to stop and get it the next time.

Keep in mind you will find yourself exhausted at the end of both level 1 and 2. You won't much feel like riding back 3 hours home after the class. Your instructor is absolutely correct. It's a *TON* to absorb and get the hang of in 2 days. You can do it, but I pretty much guarantee that most of the fundamentals that you practice on Level 1 will go out the window on Level 2 and you will revert back to your normal body positions in a 2 day session.

Best thing to do is split the courses, take Level 1 in Nashville. Practice for the month locally, then take Level 2 closer to home.

I can't believe anybody finishes Level 1 and comes out of the day without needing much more practice, it's a real whirl-wind of things to take on.

Hope you get David, he's trained both Clocklaw and myself. Great guy, very patient and has a real enthusiasm for imparting his knowledge and training on his students. Hell, the same can be said for all 3 instructors I've had at Total Control.

 

[kolonial72]

Bungie mentioned that my recent offroad experience was due to a "combo of target fixation and full blown panic." Yeah, if you add that I leaned on my grips pretty hard, which IMHO makes it very difficult to turn the bike. Sort of a lock-up situation. So really three things, none of which are helpful when trying to turn a MC.

One time ,when I could actually control a motorcycle, I was following Wild72 through a bit of a tight corner at a speed that should not have been approached in said corner. We found ourselves behind a minivan which had very shortly before placed itself in our lane. Lean was significant, and brakes were required. Both W72 and I applied a generous amount of binder, and neither of us stood up or lost traction. I was on PR2's, and he was on PR3's at the time.

I guess what I'm saying is, while it is ideal to be a little on the throttle and none on the breaks through a curve, don't be too afraid to apply the breaks when you're leaned. I think the bike is able to handle it, as long as you don't panic. Also consider practicing this at lower speeds with nobody around and work your way up.

 

[Bounce]

Slow

Look

Lean

Roll

While you can brake in a curve, you can't do so as hard as when straight up because some of your traction is obligated to the curve.

Get into an MSF:ERC course if you've not had one. Plenty around and an excellent place to start with questions like this. Lee Parks will help but it would help more AFTER you've had an ERC and learned what to practice wrt basics.

 

[Goodman4]

It actually worked out where I'll be taking the advanced MSF course and Lee Parks back to back next Friday and Saturday. Our church hosts the BRC course and most of the guys on staff ride and have been through the classes. The instructor offered to do the advanced class for us and it just happened to be the day before the Georgetown :Lee Parks class. So I'm all signed up and paid for both. I got Lee's Total Control book today and am through the first 11 chapters. He didn't spend much time talking specifically about the braking issue I am asking about, but the concept is there and more importantly everything else I'm doing wrong that comes first is all there.

The concept of the difference between sport bike braking and cruiser braking threw me. He makes the statement that a Harley Sportster can stop quicker than a racing sport bike because of the COG. The sport bike has tighter brakes but it is already at flip over the front capability. I was also unaware that the back tire only is on the ground for the first second of intense braking. I wonder where the FJR sits in that dynamic. ABS keeps the front flip over from happening, right? Or do I have something else to worry about? Also, I thought speed shifting / loading the gear when upshifting was an extreme technique and not a normal practice. Have I been too old-school with that and this is common? Lastly it seems that I may finally have the reason to have to deal with the throttle snatch. It seems smooth throttle on and off is key to his method and I can cope with my jerky throttle, but I am not smooth. Anyway I've got a lot of learning and practicing to do.

 

[Bungie]

The FJR, because of the weight, is somewhere between the cruiser and the sport bike in regards to doing an endo. Trust me, you can get WAY harder on the brakes than you think. Just do it smoothly (as with all things).

Little trick in regards to the snatchy throttle on the FJR, you can slip the clutch a bit to smooth things out. Remember my little challenge for throttle control. The hardest part on my 04 wasn't keeping the headlight level during acceleration or braking, but at the transition point between them. Very snatchy throttle! Giving the clutch a little wave at the transition smoothed that right out.

 

[Bounce]

Yeah. I would see that as not enough time to absorb and incorporate the MSF info muscle memory (lots of practice) before getting into the Lee Parks.

Other probably will disagree but I see LP as advanced and you aren't "advanced" after a day in MSF. You have to spend time incorporating what they show you into your skill set.

 

[Goodman4]

Yeah. I would see that as not enough time to absorb and incorporate the MSF info muscle memory (lots of practice) before getting into the Lee Parks.
Other probably will disagree but I see LP as advanced and you aren't "advanced" after a day in MSF. You have to spend time incorporating what they show you into your skill set.

I see this got bumped off the FJR thread.

The timing of the MSF is not the point for me. I went from considering a track day to pulling back and doing a Lee Parks Course two day to pulling back to doing a one day now and one later, maybe doing a track day later in the year depending on how it goes. The MSF course was something my friends are doing (I have a lot more experience than they do) so I am doing it with them and the refresh of the class seemed like a positive thing. I've ridden since 1978 minus 10 years when I quit riding when my girls were young. I don't claim to do things right or be any kind of sport rider, yet I've ridden a lot of twisties for a lot of years and want to do them safer. I want to have a "beginner mind" with humility to learn, so I don't usually feel the need to defend my riding skills as that doesn't put me in a learning mode. But I guess I feel defensive from the advice here and having the topic bumped to the "other bike" forum. No big deal, just communicating what I'm feeling. Maybe you figured I would get more input from the sport riders here and were helping me. If so, I guess I should appreciate that, but I want to hear from the FJR riders here that are better than me, not the racers.

If the questions about the speed shifting are not appropriate for FJR's wouldn't it be better just to say that is "advanced only" and you shouldn't be doing that? I'll even take, "you're an ***** for taking this course because it is going to make you ride faster than your abilities." I think about that a lot and I specifically talked with the instructor about the purpose of the class. He really made me feel like this was the right class for safety, not to get dumber. I really don't want to get dumber because as is often quoted, "there are bold riders and old riders but no old bold riders." I believe that quote and remind myself all the time of it.

I really don't want to talk or learn about sport bike riding. I want to talk and learn about riding the FRJ safely fast. I want to increase my capabilities and my margin to where I can ride faster and corner quickly, but ride at 50 - 60% of my abilities with my wife and occasionally 80% of my abilities by myself. I have no idea what those limits are. I have not learned anything in MSF that helped me much in the two wrecks I've had. One wreck was not knowing the limitations of the cornering capability of my VTX because of the highway pegs and the other was a low speed low-side turning into Wal-Mart that I still have no idea what I did wrong. Most people say it had to be oil. I didn't hurt myself much (slight ankle sprain) and didn't hurt the bike any, but that wreck scared me more than anything that has ever happened. I stopped trusting my bike and the road. I think the wreck on the VTX made me smarter, but the Wal-Mart wreck on the KZ1000 took the fun out of riding for a while and I've been working through regaining the confidence of leaning ever since.

Anyway I hope that explains my intentions and why I was valuing the advice I was getting.

 

[Bounce]

I didn't move the thread. I didn't know your riding background. I don't know if it was even mentioned. I based my input on the questions that were being asked. Perhaps it was just my ability to understand them. In any case, no need to be defensive. I rode a lot of years before I got some formal training that showed me that I was repeating my first year or two over and over again. I suspect many have done that. I also didn't mean to differentiate between sport riding and any other kind of riding. It's all 2 wheels and the basics are the same.

Could practicing your MSF drills in an empty parking lot have helped in learning what the clearance of the VTX was? Not pointing fingers and not expecting anyone to defend anything. Just asking something based on how I learned where different bikes dragged bits while doing PLP.

 

[Goodman4]

Thanks for the clarification, but I was surprised to see the thread moved from where I started it. Anyway, sorry for the defensiveness. The thing about the VTX was that I WAS practicing that day to get the feel of this this bike over my previous bike. I was parking lot practicing for a while, then went to a tight 20 mph off ramp that is never busy and edged my way up until I had a good feel of where the pegs started scraping. Got to feeling ok and then went through some other corners and low sided even though I wasn't going all that fast. It has a 25 mph yellow sign and I was probably going about 30. The only answers I got on the forums at the time (2007) were "slow down stupid, it's a cruiser".

Anyway, no need to continue digging on that. I'll post up how much I get out of BOTH classes and the pros and cons for me. I'm half nervous that even the MSF guy will think I'm an ***** on Friday, which adds to my defensiveness on the Total Control class. I think that is the right class for me and the instructor encouraged me a lot, but I am never overconfident. Most of the exercises in the Total Control book are very practical, but then he makes comments like "I can tell how experienced a rider is by how quickly he shifts" and then goes into the value of speed shifting. I really want to know whether speed shifting is something most of you riders do or if that is a "sport rider" thing. I know how to do it, but I thought it was only for extreme riding.

 

[yamafitter]

Most of the exercises in the Total Control book are very practical, but then he makes comments like "I can tell how experienced a rider is by how quickly he shifts" and then goes into the value of speed shifting. I really want to know whether speed shifting is something most of you riders do or if that is a "sport rider" thing. I know how to do it, but I thought it was only for extreme riding.

Riding the AE while not true speed shifting still shifts faster than most riders can perform a normal clutch & shift. If by speed shifting you mean shifting without the clutch I would not get into the habit of doing that. The gearbox will not take that kind of abuse for very long and you risk bending the shift forks along with other nasty & expensive things.

 

[Bounce]

but then he makes comments like "I can tell how experienced a rider is by how quickly he shifts" and then goes into the value of speed shifting. I really want to know whether speed shifting is something most of you riders do or if that is a "sport rider" thing. I know how to do it, but I thought it was only for extreme riding.

I never bother with it. I shift with the clutch. I do it with certainty. I don't feel any need to rush it. One of the things I look at is how under control a rider is at slow speed and if they paddle foot around. How long it takes to get their feet off the ground is more an indication for me.

 

[leedavis]

Nobody you should respect will think you're an "*****" when you're trying to get better.

I wouldn't worry too much about perfecting speed shifting just yet. The first thing is throttle technique to maintain steady torque through the drive train, up or downshifting. Throttle is tricky, especially for downshifts, and plenty to learn starting off.

I practice a lot and have some short local routes for it - around 45 minutes. I concentrate on a couple of things until I start doing them without thinking. Then, I add a couple more to the mix and so on. By all means, try to do as many of the good things you learn as you can but if you're like most of us mere mortals you'll have to prioritize. It takes time. In my case there's way more I don't know than I do. What a great sport!

 

[Goodman4]

I found a thread on this forum after posting the question about speed shifting where several respectable folk here never use the clutch past 2nd gear when going up, which is what the Total Control material is talking about. They claim that it is easy on the tranny and no harder on any parts than shifting with the clutch. I've got 20 years of clutching under my belt so I feel really good at clutch management and I think I'm pretty smooth, but have really never speed shifted much except if goofing off. Guess that's just a different crowd than I've rode with. I think I'm in the camp with you on the speed shifting, Bounce, because I honestly am just comfortable with it and even enjoy the clutch. It's just part of riding for me and I don't need to shave off a second on a bike that is faster than I need it to be.

This week I'm choosing to focus on body position instead.

Edit - make that "several" threads I found. Like this one - https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27277

It looks like this has been beat to death numerous times and I just asked the equivalent of what oil or tires to use. Sorry. I usually do more research first.

 

[wheatonFJR]

...It looks like this has been beat to death numerous times and I just asked the equivalent of what oil or tires to use. Sorry. I usually do more research first.

I actually like reoccuring threads coming up now and then. No way do I remember all the good stuff from a thread 3 years ago or even last year. From all the posts, it looks like this was a timely topic.

I really have no idea how I would do emergency braking in a curve...in fact I would probably do poorly right now. Therefore, I will not ride past my sight distance, and will like likely do an advanced course somewhere in an upcoming year...unless we are talking about speed shifting? What's up with that?

Also, I have the proverbial "tiny hands" that you may have seen in some beer commercials

therefore, I likely would not be able to hold the front brake and the throttle at the same.

So far...I have been lucky in my backward ways of throttle then brake.

 

[Bounce]

It's not a race bike. I don't expect to rebuild it after every track day like a race bike. I use the clutch the engineers put on it.