Braking in a curve / Improving my riding

[Goodman4]

I saw Lee Davis' post on braking in a curve in the NERDS forum after Dan braked and missed a curve and it brought up some questions that I've been struggling with. I am an intermediate rider with over 10 years experience. I usually ride a few thousand a year, but since getting the FJR, I've rode 10K this year alone and my riding style is expanding. I love the twisties and ride 2 up with the wife on the long trips where we try to hit the fun windy roads as our primary destinations. That is important setup because now you know what I want to be better and faster at, but also why I need to be even safer, too.

So basic questions before we get into advanced technique, please. I assume the perfect twisty curve is riding at a pace where you brake or engine-decelerate enough well before the curve entry to where you have very light acceleration as you set the lean angle and then add some acceleration through the curve. Is this correct? Also the best scenario for underestimating a curve angle is to leave enough room to increase the angle more in the curve and not be over the bike's (or your) capability. Correct?

But what about the mistakes? I (probably incorrectly) learned a long time ago to brake in the curve if you underestimate the angle (and there's no gravel). I try not to do it anymore, but it is second nature and I find myself hitting the brakes on at least a curve or two each trip. Now a little less basic question - should I feel like this occasional braking in the curve is a major mistake and spend my time training to NEVER hit the brakes after the lean is set, or should I focus on minimizing it and doing it better with more front and less rear?

I've thought about doing a track day to work on some of this, but I'm a little old, I don't want to increase my desire for fast corners even higher above my safety level, and I can't afford to have a wreck (body AND bike).

I'd like to hear some MSF and other official opinions, but also some other intermediate rider experiences with how they handle curves and braking.

Thanks!

Paul

 

[bob61]

Yes, brake before the turn, then apply some even throttle through the curve to keep the weight toward the rear wheel. This method also works best with my car. Problems can start when you approach a curve for the first time, then realize it's different than it looked.

 

[bluesdog]

I try to avoid braking while leaned into a curve, but sometimes it becomes necessary, for example when a marmot or other suicidal woodland creature bursts out of the road-side foliage!

The trick is to do it as gently and gradually as possible, and to use both front and rear brakes. Also, if you really need to stop RIGHT NOW!! if possible stand the bike straight up and brake hard.

Other than that, I practice braking gently before entering the curve - again using both front and rear brakes; my cornering lines, (apexing); shifting my body weight correctly into the curve, and gently rolling on the throttle as I apex.

There are times when I even slide my butt off towards the inside of the curve, but generally I don't ride that aggressively!

I often observe new riders, and older ones who have developed bad cornering habits: trail-braking using only the rear brake; not shifting their weight - or worse, counter weighting away from the curve; and apexing too soon.

I've been riding for 40+ years...

 

[Chiefblueman]

You might want to check out a copy of Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch. He has some very good things to say about cornering on the street.

If you don't have room for braking or changing lines in a corner on the street, IMHO you're pushing too hard. Your ability to brake in a corner and maintain control is a good skill. I wouldn't use it as my technique for every corner, but having the ability to do so is a good thing.

If I'm riding at a relaxed pace I generally get my braking done before the corner, maintain neutral throttle to the apex, then accelerate out. If I'm having a bit of fun I will trail brake into the turn, gently releasing the brakes when I've scrubbed off enough speed, then staedy through the apex and accelerate as I'm leaving and standing the bike up. I'm not fast but I have fun.

 

[leedavis]

Becoming faster is a consequence of becoming safer. When you increase your margin of error then you can go faster. White knuckle driving at the edge of control is a trip to the ditch.

I live and ride in the SE Appalachians where a high percentage of the curves are blind. You can't see the turn exit or even the apex. In my experience trail braking is the key to safely negotiating those kinds of roads at a brisk pace.

When I'm in a twisty section or coming up on a blind or tight radius curve I cover the front brake with 2 fingers. The other 2 fingers and thumb work the throttle. Approaching the curve I'll slow the bike to my best guess about the corner speed, usually by downshifting. I turn in and lean then maintain just enough throttle to hold speed and keep the suspension level. Once I've cleared the apex and see a clear path to the turn exit I accelerate back to my pace. However, if things look like they might get dicey after I've made my turn in to the curve I'll start applying front brake to further slow the bike until I can make the apex then "trail" off the brakes and back to steady throttle through the apex. That maintains my margin of error. Once you get the hang of it you can enter curves quite quickly, knowing you can do something about it if there's a surprise.

That'll get you through a single curve but there are also multiple S curves. The thing there is a smooth throttle through all the curves...while also covering the front brake, just in case. Avoid herky-jerky throttle and brake that upsets the suspension.

Rear brake stands the bike up so I don't use it for curves. An exception is a stop or else die situation. This happened to me recently when a dump truck was stopped and straddling both lanes just past the apex of a blind curve. It was a right hander and it didn't matter if I stayed in my lane so I stood the bike up and applied max front and rear brakes.

 

[FJR Bill]

All good posts. I've experienced some opinions such as "Never brake in a turn just lean her over". While braking in a turn should be avoided, on the streets your entry speed should be slow enough to allow changing your line for wet spots gravel etc and braking if necessary. On occasions I finally see the sand/gravel once in the turn so I apply brakes before I get there then release when I'm there, now at a slower speed and less lean angle. So for street riding I'm a fan of slow in and fast out. Won't win any races but that's not my desire. Also what's nice on the FJR, once the apex has been reached and or the view is clear, the bike is great fun to blast out of the corner. Bill

 

[SwollenRaccoon]

Great comments so far. A suggestion......it doesn't really matter how old you are, if you can get to a track day, you will NOT regret it. No need to try to be the next great MotoGP champ. You'll improve enough to get that all-important safety margin we all need on the street. Tell your wife you're taking it for safety reasons (which, in truth, you are).

By the way, you will NOT have more fun on a motorcycle than a track day.

 

[Nikk]

Check out this thread in the FZ1 forum, very good advice WRT to your question. https://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122811

 

[Goodman4]

Great comments so far. A suggestion......it doesn't really matter how old you are, if you can get to a track day, you will NOT regret it. No need to try to be the next great MotoGP champ. You'll improve enough to get that all-important safety margin we all need on the street. Tell your wife you're taking it for safety reasons (which, in truth, you are).
By the way, you will NOT have more fun on a motorcycle than a track day.

I'm still considering Barber in September or October. It would have to be on the FJR and I've got mixed advise on the wisdom of doing this. The wife already is ok with me doing the track day. I've just got to be sure it's right for me. I do enough dumb stuff accidentally, I don't want to do something stupid on purpose. But I think it would be pretty awesome.

Check out this thread in the FZ1 forum, very good advice WRT to your question. https://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122811

Everyone's advice has been just what I'm looking for. I had read or heard a lot of these ideas in various forms, but I think this is coming together for me better now, especially reading the debate between the MSF basics and Nick's ideas on the FZ1 forum. Makes me feel like part of what I developed naturally over the years hasn't really been that wrong. I still have some gaps, though, and will continue to practice. Wish I could have ridden with Lee when I was in Boone earlier this year.

 

[20valves]

Becoming faster is a consequence of becoming safer. When you increase your margin of error then you can go faster. White knuckle driving at the edge of control is a trip to the ditch.
I live and ride in the SE Appalachians where a high percentage of the curves are blind. You can't see the turn exit or even the apex. In my experience trail braking is the key to safely negotiating those kinds of roads at a brisk pace.

When I'm in a twisty section or coming up on a blind or tight radius curve I cover the front brake with 2 fingers. The other 2 fingers and thumb work the throttle. Approaching the curve I'll slow the bike to my best guess about the corner speed, usually by downshifting. I turn in and lean then maintain just enough throttle to hold speed and keep the suspension level. Once I've cleared the apex and see a clear path to the turn exit I accelerate back to my pace. However, if things look like they might get dicey after I've made my turn in to the curve I'll start applying front brake to further slow the bike until I can make the apex then "trail" off the brakes and back to steady throttle through the apex. That maintains my margin of error. Once you get the hang of it you can enter curves quite quickly, knowing you can do something about it if there's a surprise.

IMHO, this is very good advice. I've done two trips to the YCRS and they heavily teach braking deep into the curve. You watch video of all the greats in MotoGP doing exactly that. Ok, that's racing, should you do it on the street? Not always, but you should have the skill to do it. Doing it at the track over and over you become amazed at how hard you can brake past the tip in point. Knowing you could do this if you had to when riding at a more relaxed pace on the street can help you ride with a lot more confidence. It really does get your bike ready to turn when you load the tire and steepen the steering head angle by smoothly braking a bit through tip in. You do not want to brake and then release letting the suspension rebound during a turn, it makes you run wide.

Nick Ienatsch has a new piece in CW in the last month or two called "The Pace, 2.0" There's lots of good street riding info in there.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Yeah, I can see I have a lot to learn...

...I guess I better save up $$ for a class.

 

[dcarver]

And if you really want to try something fun, learn to steer while the ABS is pumping..

I forced myself to learn this skill, overcoming the fear factor, and now I can't believe what a wonderful advanced technique it is to have the toolbox.

 

[Bungie]

Kay, I don't know **** about nothing. But I have done a FAST Race school and both level 1 and 2 of Lee Parks Total Control. Level 2 was done last weekend. I've been riding for about 40 years give or take.

First advice, take a Lee Parks course. I'm serious, before anybody spends a freekin' dime on Power Commanders or pipes or suspension, spend some money on the main control unit. You'll learn some very advanced techniques in a safe environment with instructors who know their ****. Do NOT do a track day first. All you'll accomplish is learn to do the wrong thing faster. But it's stupid fun, more fun than a human should be allowed to have.

Second advice, and this is just something I just learned, in fact, I even challenged the instructors. My face was a little red after, but the looks on their faces was priceless when Mr. KnowItAll gets schooled. In level 1, you learn about _real_ trail braking, which is NOT just applying the brakes into the corner as is 'common knowledge'. It's controlling the suspension with the brakes AND THE THROTTLE at the same time. This keeps the suspension settled and the bike in a happy place (when your hard on the brakes into a corner, the front end collapses, shortening trail and making the bike turn even faster, which is the point, but it's near impossible to transition from brakes to throttle AT the apex smoothly).

In level 2 they took this to another level.

We all know that stabbing the brakes in a corner will stand the bike up. Witness Dan's get off at NERDS (which was a combo of target fixation and full blown panic. You can even see his bike skid before going offroading, no shame their, I've done it more times than I care to admit. Video Proof of me sliding a 650lb bike around a 15mph gravel covered corner with an entry speed of 45mph). Interesting thing is though, if you're ALREADY on the brakes closing in on the apex, you can actually TIGHTEN your line with the brakes. This is what I challenged the instructors on. I swore up and down the block the bike would stand up.

So they setup a decreasing radius corner, then close to the apex, they put an 'obstacle cone' for me. Told me to try it my way. Sure enough, the bike wanted to stand up. I fought it, and made the corner. Then I did as they were teaching and was sure I would dump my brand spanking new 13.

On both brakes smoothly into the apex, a little bit of thottle to keep the suspension happy. I had the obstacle cone in my sights. Just before I hit it I gave the brakes an ever so slight increase in pressure. SON OF A *****! The bike dropped in further into the corner pretty as you please and I steered around the obstacle. I repeated it again and again. FOCK ME, I learned a cool new trick.

You can control your trajectory 3 ways in a corner. By steering, by throttle and by brakes. It's nice having the tools to use in a situation, but they take some practice. I need to do more.

The bike knows how do it, you need to learn to give the bike the right inputs to LET IT DO IT. You need to stop fighting the bike. You need to take a course.

After the course I was thinking about what I learned that day, and, what I was told by Micheal Mercier (4 time Cdn Superbike champion, and holder of something like 25 number 1 plates in all disciplines - the man knows his ****!), and by my course instructor who finished last year #2 in Cdn Superbike.

"Smooder on the Troddle"

Good advice this. In Level 1 theirs an exercise, I think it's the second one of the day, that I'll challenge ANYBODY here to do properly on the FJR. My guess is less than 5% can do it.

From a stop, accelerate smoothly through 2 gears. No raising of the headlight allowed. Now, brake to a stop, but the headlight CANNOT dip. The attitude of the bike must remain neutral through-out the exercise. VERY basic stuff right. Right. Guaranteed you can't do it. Throttle control isn't on or off, it's PAINFULLY slow, like 3x slower than you think is slow enough. Learn it, practice it. I'm still working on number the second part.

Addendum: Found the pics of my Lee Parks Level 2 course online.

Clearly shows nearly dragging peg and front brake on, throttle on.

No really, REALLY turn your ahead and look where you want to be

Class group shot, my instructors, Christine Firehock and Nancy Mayer

 

[Silver Ranger]

IMHO I found Twist Of The Wrist II on YouTube to be very informative and helpful.

 

[SwollenRaccoon]

Fabulous comments. Perfect.

I need to clarify what I said about a "track day". I did Reg Pridmore's CLASS track day at RoadAmerica three times. Learned more every year, and got smoother, faster, and safer. I KNOW that the class instruction and track time has saved my bacon numerous times since. Take the class on your FJR.....you need to know what it is capable of so you can do the right thing in a bad situation. The instructors were patient, knowledgeable, and fast. They could teach pretty much to any level. Find something similar.

The fourth track day I did was an "open" event at Mid-America motorplex, just outside Council Bluffs, Iowa. Of the 40 or so bikes there, fully 32 to 35 were race bikes, with number plates, and no lights or mirrors. These guys were wicked fast. If that had been my first track day, with no instruction, I definitely would have thrown the bike into the weeds during that day.

Good luck, and keep learning.

 

[Goodman4]

The Lee Parks class is in Nashville at the beginning of October. I emailed my registration info just now. I hope they have a spot, cause this sounds like just what I was looking for. They offer level one on Saturday and level two on Sunday. Think that is too much to cram in a weekend? Or just do level one and practice a lot and do level two next year?

 

[Goodman4]

Nick Ienatsch has a new piece in CW in the last month or two called "The Pace, 2.0" There's lots of good street riding info in there.

I had not made the connection that the "Nick" that is posting in the FZ1 forum was the same Nick that wrote "The Pace" until just now. That article was recommended to me over a year ago and I read it several times and forwarded it to all my friends that ride. Very influential to my riding.

 

[MrM0t0]

I've done the Lee Parks class level 1 at Loudon NH and had the privilege of having Lee as the instructor. Can't say enough of how much it improved my riding.

And getting one cheek off the seat of an FJR opens up a whole new world of cornering capabilities. I've had riders on GSXR 1000s compliment me on my ability to make the Feejer turn in at speed. Making a bike as big as this behave the way you want WHEN you need it to is a rush and can be a life-saver.

Improving the top half of the bike (between the seat and the bars) is the best money you can spend.

 

[Bungie]

The Lee Parks class is in Nashville at the beginning of October. I emailed my registration info just now. I hope they have a spot, cause this sounds like just what I was looking for. They offer level one on Saturday and level two on Sunday. Think that is too much to cram in a weekend? Or just do level one and practice a lot and do level two next year?

Do them back to back. Mine were a year apart and despite practicing, I really could have used a refresher. Your head will be swimming with the new info and you will feel like you need more practice, but at least they give you the tools to analyze where your making your mistakes. By the book and practice before the course!