Brief discussion of cornering technique

[Scab]

Bastards. All of you. The more this thread develops, the more inadequate I feel as a rider. You have all managed to suck the joy out of riding.

Thank you, thank you all very much.

I'm going to take a ride now.

In the car.

 

[odot]

Well, crank the stereo and have fun in the curves.

edit:....oh, and keep your line, eh?

 

[Scab]

Well, crank the stereo and have fun in the curves.
edit:....oh, and keep your line, eh?

In the car, I have two lines. Maybe one of them will be right.

 

[7xray]

Thanks Jeff and all,

As a FNNNNNNNNNG (to the forum and to riding) I'm trying to get a handle on all this. The thing I want is to be smoooooth, which is what I think all of you have been tutoring.

Cheers,

7X

 

[HaulinAshe]

Thanks Jeff and all,As a FNNNNNNNNNG (to the forum and to riding) I'm trying to get a handle on all this. The thing I want is to be smoooooth, which is what I think all of you have been tutoring.

Cheers,

7X

This is the point where I normally insert my useless opinion on other threads, so why not keep up a bad reputation in my own thread???

Don't confuse smooth with quick, or quick with fast. Each of those three adverbs (I think) are unique in both execution and effect, and they don't necessarily exclude each other. The only thing that governs them all in common is the anti-liar device, aka stopwatch. The only thing that outweighs all the above is safe. Safe is the Holy Grail of motorcycling.

I'm looking to tweak my performance in a very special situation, the constant speed sweeping turn where I am forced to follow an unpassable object of superior mass (LEO). Now that's not to say that I don't ever run exactly the posted speedo down lengthy stretches of highway. You can bet that whenever I do, one of my two goals is to not drop so much as a fraction below the posted speedo, with my first goal always being safe.

Honing my riding technique to trim off the last two milliseconds from point-A to point-B is just one of the ways I prevent boredom. Grumpy recommends medication for me.

 

[Kevin Daly]

Had not thought about left turns versus right turns, but I think I too make the mistake more often on lefties.To further expand on the explanation, I rarely double-take when I accelerate from the apex out. But when you enter the turn at legal posted and must exit at legal posted, acceleration out of the turn is not a viable option. (The brain dead SUV pilot in front does not help!) It's in those situations that I will (IMO much too often) be forced to double-take the lean. It's a tiny adjustment, but an adjustment nevertheless.

It's as much an ego thing for me as anything. My little shoulder voice says "You've been riding for 44 years and you still can't get the lean angle perfect!!! Did you just go to sleep in that corner or what???".



The weight shift works for me and allows the bike to remain at a constant angle. Anybody else using weight shift over minor lean angle corrections with regularity? Just thinking out loud for conversation sake.

Well Jeff,

In reading the many posts of yours over the past year or so, I would say that you are a very good rider and you know how to take a corner but you have changed in some way what you normally do. In reading your initial post here and based on my own personal experience, I get the sense that you have that you have changed one or both of two things and these are probably for the better (actually). First, you might be setting up your body weight relatively more to the inside than you used to (or possibly you put on some torso weight). The further you shift your body inside the less you need to lean for a given line. So if you have done this then you need to learn that you don't need to lean as far as you used to (or you need to go faster to maintain that line ). You can also take a more delayed entry point (possibly). By the way those who mentioned that this bike is too heavy for this to be effective are flat out wrong. it is true that hanging off on a light bike has a greater effect but this is not to say that it has NO effect on bikes like the FJR (and you dont even have to be a fat ol'fart either). Second, it is possible that you are now counter steering with more confidence. That is, you are countersteering more aggressively and snapping the bike into the lean apex (as opposed to the apex of the corner). Given the apex lean angle, leaning quickly will yield a tighter turn radius than slowly leaning the bike to the lean apex. It could also be that you are both leaning the bike more aggressively AND hanging off to the inside more. In either case this IMO is a good thing and you now just need to relearn to control your arc through the corner by either accelerating harder OR leaning less. Leaning slower is not preferable from a saftey point of view because it means that you will have to maintain max lean angle longer. See Lee Parks book Total Control he describes this too.

Also, as you eluded to, you are finding that you can fine tune the arc of your line by simply shifting your weight a bit more or less. This suggests that you have your weight to the inside already because shifting your weight from a upright and centered position is much more difficult and is more likley to upset the suspension. this is because once you are leaned your butt will be pressed into the seat from the centripital force generated from arcing the bike trajectory.

As you know from riding in WV there are a lot of corners where you have to hold the cage tire track line through a corner instead of going from outside to inside for the corner apex because of gravel/coal and other crap on the road. This usually also means you have to change the track you wanted to take and the easiest way to do this is to shift your weight. If you're hanging off it becomes quite easy to briefly hang further and push the bike up to briefly track to the outside or pull the bike to you and bring the bike into a steeper angle to track to the inside. As I approach a corner based on its tightness and my intended entry speed, I will slide out of the seat and bring my inside knee out down (no i dont drag it) and align the center of my chest with my inside hand. If you are headed straight while setting up this poistion you bike will actually be leaned in the opposite direction to counter balance for your weight being to one side; this is the approximate "savings" in lean angle, all else being equal.

Some tell me that I shouldn't ride the road like it is a track (i.e. shouldnt hang off) but in reality doing this is actually safer because all else being equal I can take a tighter track through the same corner at the same speed as someone who doesnt hang and I am not leaned as far as that person.

 

[Fencer]

Its plain to see Jeff.... You're getting old, and loosing your sight and reflexes (wait thats me).

You are early Apexing (wait, thats me too)

You are entering too fast for the curve and have to correct mid turn (Damn me again)

I know what my problems are "and knowing is half the battle - YO JOE!!"

Slow in fast out

Heidi said I was smoother this year than last year, and I can tell.

I just can't judge the apex of a corner worth a crap.

I don't know if it has to do with a bad eye and poorer vision or just poor judgement.

*** edit

You have gone through so many tires lately, could it be a suspension setup / grip feel from diff tires that you are unused to?

Stick with a set you like and quit switching.

 

[HaulinAshe]

As you know from riding in WV there are a lot of corners where you have to hold the cage tire track line through a corner instead of going from outside to inside for the corner apex because of gravel/coal and other crap on the road. This usually also means you have to change the track you wanted to take and the easiest way to do this is to shift your weight. If you're hanging off it becomes quite easy to briefly hang further and push the bike up to briefly track to the outside or pull the bike to you and bring the bike into a steeper angle to track to the inside.
Some tell me that I shouldn't ride the road like it is a track (i.e. shouldnt hang off) but in reality doing this is actually safer because all else being equal I can take a tighter track through the same corner at the same speed as someone who doesnt hang and I am not leaned as far as that person.

Yep, WV gravel had me doing a lot of "technique adjusting". I was frequently forced to follow the transportation engineer's line and ignore my own personal choices. It was so pronounced that I found myself consciously speaking to myself about what to do next, timing etc. That's probably what got me started thinking so much and reacting less.

The other big factor was that absolutely worn out front tire I elected to leave on the bike. We're talking the epitome of laziness here. I had a much better tire stashed away in the GF's van, tools everything to do the change. But NOOOoooo, I decided it was more important to socialize with a bunch of other misfits than to properly maintain my bike. That kind of laziness is what loses races. Good thing it wasn't a race!

However, ExtremeMarine did proceed to "hand it to me" with vigor and frequency at EOM. See... too much thinking again!

I get told all the time that I shouldn't ride the road like it's a track. I usually offer the following... "You should not ride the motorcycle like it's a truck either!" Know your machine intimately. Know it's limitations and your own equally. Respect the bike and accept that not every mile or every day is always the same. The day you think you have mastered the motorcycle, sell it! It's about to kill you.

Now that was a nice hijack.

 

[Kevin Daly]

I like the combined linked brakes and throttle idea. Will have to give that a try. It would definitely load the suspension and create a similar geometry change as the weight shift, without causing any variation in straight-line travel speed (mph). Besides, it gives me one more way to burn away brakes!

You think braking in a curve the answer to your dilema!?!?!??? Are you out of your freakin' mind? Depending on your speed and lean angle, you're already eating up a huge chunk of your traction, now you want to do some braking? :blink: That's a HUGE bad habit and about the worst advice I've seen given out on this forum. A smooth rolling on of the throttle is what will seat your suspension. Don't even get me started on the idea of shifting your weight in order to negotiate a turn at speed.

You are talking about riding on the street, right?

not to mention that to maintain a line once leaned you have to give throttle just to compensate for the smaller circumfrence of the tire while leaning so breaking is normally not a good idea. Not sure I agree with you on the weight shifting though the devil is in the details there IMO.

 

[HaulinAshe]

You have gone through so many tires lately, could it be a suspension setup / grip feel from diff tires that you are unused to?Stick with a set you like and quit switching.

Fence, you're a freakin genius!!!

Rule #1 of troubleshooting - Always look first to what was changed last.

I was just thinking the other day (Ha, thinking! Not my forte!) that I need to give up on testing tires for a while. I have this one last set of BT021s in the garage, then I'm done for at least a few months.

WFO changed a lot of my tire focus. I got real mileage out of regular Stradas while riding west of here. That gave me a warm fuzzy feeling, much to contrary of that feeling Grumpy keeps giving me about my throttle management.

Love you Grumpy! Come home soon. It's almost time for the First Annual Frosty Balls Reunion Ride.

 

[FJRski]

Somehow, this discussion doesn't mesh with the mental image I have of last Saturday at EOM.

Do what works. On the street you worry about unknowns, gravel, potholes, etc.

Did you ever consider that you might subconciously be adjusting mid-corner, just in case you need to change your exit line.

OK, maybe I should have read the other posts before I added mne.

 

[extrememarine]

However, ExtremeMarine did proceed to "hand it to me" with vigor and frequency at EOM. See... too much thinking again!

I am but the padawan apprentice, jedi master, but the force is strong in me.

(and I've got a half used set of tires in the garage because I knew better than to come out to play with worn out sneakers on!)

 

[Scab]

And we're on page THREE of a thread titled "BRIEF discussion of..."

Pass me a beer.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Somehow, this discussion doesn't mesh with the mental image I have of last Saturday at EOM.

'splain please!?

 

[Scab]

Somehow, this discussion doesn't mesh with the mental image I have of last Saturday at EOM.

'splain please!?

Drunkards, Marti Gras beads, bare breasts, parking lot burn-outs, vommit in the parking lot, etc., etc.?

 

[extrememarine]

And we're on page THREE of a thread titled "BRIEF discussion of..."
Pass me a beer.

topic hijack

I thought that you might be interested in a thread of this nature; (I have ridden with you as well...).

end hijack

 

[Scab]

Actually, yes. I think alot of the comments are more suitable to me than Jeff. I, most definately, need some schooling. And then, to make matters worse, are the ghosts of two crashes and the constant state of thinking too much. My cornering now totally sucks butt cheese.

 

[extrememarine]

Actually, yes. I think alot of the comments are more suitable to me than Jeff. I, most definately, need some schooling. And then, to make matters worse, are the ghosts of two crashes and the constant state of thinking too much. My cornering now totally sucks butt cheese.

Talked with Heidi about this the other day; took me along time to get over (a "over" as you can be) my get off. (Pre-FJR, 16year old kid vs honda shadow, not as severe as yours, but the "thinking" was there for some time). read on, brother, read on...

and now back to your regularly scheduled programing...

 

[Scab]

The mind is a remarkable thing. Sometimes that is good, sometimes that is bad. I rode with Jason at EOM and he noticed immediately just how much "off" my riding had become. I am at a loss for the solution. I find myself mentally worrying and second-guessing entry speed and lean angle. It is bothersome, to say the least.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Try talking to yourself, seriously.

Rehearse every key step while you are having that beer in front of the TV. When riding, actually speak to yourself in the helmet. Do it over and over and over until both the action and the verbal prompt are automatic. Then just shut up and ride.

I find that as my confidence grows from knowing that I can actually think everything through reliably, shutting up frees the extra brain power to take it to the next level.

It's like climbing steps, except you don't do another step until the last one doesn't hurt any more. I've been thrown off and slammed the ground more times than any old fart should. Same technique worked in dirt so I just transferred the conditioning principles to street. Might work for you.

Came back to edit/add...

You are on a different bike, a VERY different bike now. What used to work no longer applies. You ARE learning all over again. That just takes time. 2:00 a.m. rides don't get you anywhere either!