Changed CCT but now won't start --HELP

[HaulinAshe]

Duke - From this post, it sounds like you may have installed the CCT with the plunger fully extended. You then may have possibly backed off the CCT plunger and it had no tension to the cam chain. The bolts have plenty of meat to go onto the CCT and head when the plunger is fully retracted in the CCT, the way it was shipped OEM with the little "T" device to hold it in.
I'm not getting a warm fuzzy for your situation now.

If the Intake-side chain guide doesn't "shift" while the old CCT is out and allow the chain to relax, you're 100% correct. But if the Intake-side guide does move and allows the chain to relax at the bottom against the crank sprocket, the chain will bind and a fully-retracted, brand new CCT will not seat properly.

 

[Warchild]

*** PLEASE EVERYONE! READ THIS WARNING! ***
I've seen this condition personally several times. That's why NOW I insist on tie-wrapping the cam chain on both sides of the crank sprocket BEFORE changing the CCT.

This is an OUTSTANDING post, HA!!!!

 

[Constant Mesh]

I don't believe the chain will jump a cog on the crankshaft sprocket as long as the guides are in place. The lower end of the intake guide is fixed by the pivot pin. When you remove the tensioner and the top of the guide moves back away from the chain the bottom end of the guide will move closer to the sprocket due to the pivoting action.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I don't believe the chain will jump a cog on the crankshaft sprocket as long as the guides are in place. The lower end of the intake guide is fixed by the pivot pin. When you remove the tensioner and the top of the guide moves back away from the chain the bottom end of the guide will move closer to the sprocket due to the pivoting action.

I agree that it should not be possible. It's only from personal experience that I insist otherwise. I've had two instances where the valve cover was removed, the right side cover was in place, and while removing the old CCT the chain slack settled against the crank sprocket and became jammed, thus preventing the new CCT from properly seating.

It's a sickening feeling because what should be a one hour CCT change, quickly turns into much more.

Now I NEVER risk it and make sure to also remove the right-side cover, then tie-wrap the cam chain on both sides of the crank sprocket before changing anything. Re-timing an FJR sucks!

 

[RadioHowie]

I'm sick to my stomach.

Doesn't sound good. Doesn't feel good.

 

[S76]

Oh Dear!

This does not sound good. Jeff's comments matched my scenario and findings exactly. I had almost the same problem exactly. The only exception is when I jumped a tooth I was in the process of timing the cams so I saw it before I tired to start the bike, narrowly avoiding disaster. From now on I take the crank cover off and tye rap the chains and guides together AND check the timing before attempting to start. So yes, to change the CCT you should remove the valve cover and the crank cover. Or, just roll the dice.

I don't believe the chain will jump a cog on the crankshaft sprocket as long as the guides are in place. The lower end of the intake guide is fixed by the pivot pin. When you remove the tensioner and the top of the guide moves back away from the chain the bottom end of the guide will move closer to the sprocket due to the pivoting action.

You would think that, I thought that. That's how I got in trouble. I figured the guides would be adequate. Nope, not true. Even with the cams in place, if you remove the tensioner, the chain will slide down enough to create a little loop under the crank. Whether it goes back in the same spot or not is a crap shoot. One I don't want to take. Also, my chain only had 10K miles on it so it wasn't stretched out that much compared to a higher mileage chain.

What Duke explained, about having difficulty getting the CCT back in makes sense. The chain skipped half a tooth, riding up high on the sprocket and not allowing the guide to reposition to normal. He forced it together with the bolts but the chain was still sitting on top of the teeth. Touch the starter and it slips to the next tooth, or two. When the chain skips a tooth on the crank it is especially bad because the crank only has half the teeth of the cam on it. So one tooth on the crank is like 2 teeth on the cam.

Now, having said all that, Duke:

1. Did you start the engine and let it run for just a few minutes before you started to do this work?

2. Does the engine crank at a normal speed and does it sound normal like it used to?

1. If you start the engine and do not let it warm all the way up before you shut it down it can flood and not start at all. If this happens do the wide open throttle thing. Or, better yet, is to raise the gas tank and pull the plug off the fuel pump to clear the engine. Once it tries to start a little, plug the pump back in. Much less cranking on your starter this way.

2. A flooded engine will crank at a faster speed, making one think the valves are bent. Of course at this point you start tearing the whole engine apart for no good reason. BTDT

3. Listen to the exhaust while someone cranks the engine. Does it sound normal, any hissing or weird sounds?

Ultimately you need to do a compression test. And don't let the idiots at the dealership tell you you have low compression if it is 50 or 75 lbs. below target. That's fine. If any valves are bent you will have no compression.

If you find out the valves are bent pull the engine and crate it. Ship it to CT. I'll fix it this winter. Yeah, not much help right now but it's all I got.

 

[Geezer]

If you find out the valves are bent pull the engine and crate it. Ship it to CT. I'll fix it this winter. Yeah, not much help right now but it's all I got.

You don't get an offer like that every day. Wow!

 

[Patriot]

Oh Dear!
This does not sound good. Jeff's comments matched my scenario and findings exactly. I had almost the same problem exactly. The only exception is when I jumped a tooth I was in the process of timing the cams so I saw it before I tired to start the bike, narrowly avoiding disaster. From now on I take the crank cover off and tye rap the chains and guides together AND check the timing before attempting to start. So yes, to change the CCT you should remove the valve cover and the crank cover. Or, just roll the dice.

OK, I'm good with taking off the crank cover and tie wrapping the chain right above the crank gear to prevent any jumping of teeth no matter what else happens. But I'm not happy with pulling the valve cover. Is that just in case the 1 outta 1000 the chain jumps a cam gear??? Just insurance before sealing up the engine, you check the cam timing while the crank is in #1 top dead center ???

I mean, how many actually pull the valve cover to only change the CCT ???

my blood pressure is a fair amount higher than before I read this thread...

NO NO NO

NO NO NO

<wished I had one of those red circle crossed out thingys photochopped on top of above>

 

[Geezer]

I mean, how many actually pull the valve cover to only change the CCT ???

I agree, I do not pull the valve cover to change the CCT, just the timing cover. And I have used a small bungie to hold tension on the chain rather than zip ties.

However, in this case where the timing is in question, he'll need to remove the valve cover to check the timing.

 

[S76]

I mean, how many actually pull the valve cover to only change the CCT ???

Granted that may be overkill and not for everyone. But when I do this type of work I usually do everything together. CCT, chain, valve lash etc. so it just works out that way.

But when you consider the potential for disaster $$$$$$$ it's well worth the time. To me anyway. FWIW.

But like Greg said, tying up the chains and guides together tight, just above the crank should be adequate.

 

[Ignacio]

*** PLEASE EVERYONE! READ THIS WARNING! ***
I've seen this condition personally ......

Added to the New Owner's FAQ as #28.

Doesn't do anything for this guy, but maybe somebody in the future. Thanks.

Ig

 

[FJRBluesman]

For insurance purposes I can see tying up the chain. Now lets remember SkooterG's comments on all the people with CCT issues, and the chicken little syndrome, it wasn't like 50% of the forum, the percentage was small. In that same vain, doing the CCT without tying the chain is disastrous.

I wonder how the Yammer dealer does it? I bet they have no clue and just pull the CCT out and swap it.

I must admit, some here have had issue with the chain slipping when removing and replacing the CCT. I would have to think that is the out of the ordinary, but something that each person must decide what to do when they attempt this.

I for one will probably do the tying of the chain now, just for piece of mind if I replace a CCT again.

 

[HaulinAshe]

I mean, how many actually pull the valve cover to only change the CCT ???

I edited one of my posts to reflect as stated above. In the case where ALL that's being replaced is the CCT, removing the right-side cover and tying the chain and guides together to hold tension, is all that's required for the CCT change.

As S76 stated, most of us already have the valve cover removed and are doing other maintenance things too. CCT change is just another piece of the open puzzle box. (And one more chance to drop a screw inside the motor!)

In this thread originator's case (or anytime that timing is questionned), the valve cover must also be removed to check the timing on the cam sprockets. That's when I break out the swear jar and a money clip.

 

[FJR98008]

Oh Dear!
This does not sound good. Jeff's comments matched my scenario and findings exactly. I had almost the same problem exactly. The only exception is when I jumped a tooth I was in the process of timing the cams so I saw it before I tired to start the bike, narrowly avoiding disaster. From now on I take the crank cover off and tye rap the chains and guides together AND check the timing before attempting to start. So yes, to change the CCT you should remove the valve cover and the crank cover. Or, just roll the dice.

I don't believe the chain will jump a cog on the crankshaft sprocket as long as the guides are in place. The lower end of the intake guide is fixed by the pivot pin. When you remove the tensioner and the top of the guide moves back away from the chain the bottom end of the guide will move closer to the sprocket due to the pivoting action.

You would think that, I thought that. That's how I got in trouble. I figured the guides would be adequate. Nope, not true. Even with the cams in place, if you remove the tensioner, the chain will slide down enough to create a little loop under the crank. Whether it goes back in the same spot or not is a crap shoot. One I don't want to take. Also, my chain only had 10K miles on it so it wasn't stretched out that much compared to a higher mileage chain.

What Duke explained, about having difficulty getting the CCT back in makes sense. The chain skipped half a tooth, riding up high on the sprocket and not allowing the guide to reposition to normal. He forced it together with the bolts but the chain was still sitting on top of the teeth. Touch the starter and it slips to the next tooth, or two. When the chain skips a tooth on the crank it is especially bad because the crank only has half the teeth of the cam on it. So one tooth on the crank is like 2 teeth on the cam.

Now, having said all that, Duke:

1. Did you start the engine and let it run for just a few minutes before you started to do this work?

2. Does the engine crank at a normal speed and does it sound normal like it used to?

1. If you start the engine and do not let it warm all the way up before you shut it down it can flood and not start at all. If this happens do the wide open throttle thing. Or, better yet, is to raise the gas tank and pull the plug off the fuel pump to clear the engine. Once it tries to start a little, plug the pump back in. Much less cranking on your starter this way.

2. A flooded engine will crank at a faster speed, making one think the valves are bent. Of course at this point you start tearing the whole engine apart for no good reason. BTDT

3. Listen to the exhaust while someone cranks the engine. Does it sound normal, any hissing or weird sounds?

Ultimately you need to do a compression test. And don't let the idiots at the dealership tell you you have low compression if it is 50 or 75 lbs. below target. That's fine. If any valves are bent you will have no compression.

If you find out the valves are bent pull the engine and crate it. Ship it to CT. I'll fix it this winter. Yeah, not much help right now but it's all I got.

First, thank you, yesterday after this occurred and I was not able to start the bike, I just about cried...well, not really, but definitely felt several beads of sweat forming on my forehead. Now, I'm excited and nervous to apply everything I've learned from all of you.

Here are the sequence of events that led to my mistake:

1. Engine cold, last time I rode was yesterday coming home from work. Made a mental note that I should take care of the slight rattle noise from the CCT area.

2. Next day, check forum to confirm the rattle was from the CCT and learned how to remove the CCT.

3. Purchased new CCT, removed old CCT- with some trouble but used a short 8mm socket with one short wobbly extension plus a long wobbly extension (both provided just the right angle to easily get to the bottom bolt).

4. Before installing new CCT, made sure the plunger was retracted and seated correctly.

5. Installed new CCT but notice resistance in trying to place the CCT into its' position. Talked to Yama. tech- he mentioned as long as you can thread the bolt it's normal.

6. Threaded bolth bolts.

7. Released the plunger and confirmed it by turning it CW- BUT noticed that I didn't feel the plunger release; almost like it was pressed up against something.

8. Called same Yama tech. - said it should be okay, try starting it.

9. Did so, but just cranked but wouldn't actually start.

The sound it made was exactly the same as how it would sound normally. Not faster or slower.

10. Yama tech. suggests changing spark plugs. Check for fault codes.

11. Check for fault code. No fault codes everything reads normal.

12. Removed old spark plugs, normal wear brownish around tip, and installed new spark plugs. I did it one at a time to minimize confusion.

13. Tried electric start. BOOM loud backfire. So I called Yama tech. - said it's okay try it again.

14. Tried electric start again, but it was like before. Engine cranks but but would not start.

15. Took fairing off. Checked for blown fuses- everything looks good.

Well that's it. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I've been saving all the posts and plan to print (easier to read) it so I can use it for guidance. Any other tips, suggestions, advice would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Duke

1

 

[HaulinAshe]

...I must admit, some here have had issue with the chain slipping when removing and replacing the CCT. I would have to think that is the out of the ordinary, but something that each person must decide what to do when they attempt this.

I dare say that if you carefully rotate the crank to put the cams on the timing marks, THEN attempt to change the CCT, you stand a 50/50 chance of it slipping off as discussed. That particular position seems to place just the right pressure in just the right spots to cause the cams to rotate when given ANY slack.

I believe that simply shutting down the engine in what tends to be one of its normal, relaxed positions, is much less risky. There again, many of us already have the top end open and the cams sitting on the mark for the valve clearance check procedure.

Me being my own worst enemy comes as no surprise to my Mother.

 

[HaulinAshe]

...Well that's it. Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I've been saving all the posts and plan to print (easier to read) it so I can use it for guidance. Any other tips, suggestions, advice would be greatly appreciated.

My advice...

1) Stop trying to crank it.

2) Run from the mechanic you spoke with. He/she is clueless about what they're dealing with and the potential loss.

3) Plan on re-timing the engine.

I bet if you hold it Wide Open Throttle it will crank, but it won't idle once the cold start cycle completes. I bet it's one tooth off time. If it was two teeth off time, it would be spitting pieces and making horrible noises.

 

[HaulinAshe]

Without meaning anything critical about the poster, but more to the Yamaha tech that was consulted...

...5. Installed new CCT but notice resistance in trying to place the CCT into its' position. Talked to Yama. tech- he mentioned as long as you can thread the bolt it's normal.

6. Threaded bolth bolts.

7. Released the plunger and confirmed it by turning it CW- BUT noticed that I didn't feel the plunger release; almost like it was pressed up against something.

8. Called same Yama tech. - said it should be okay, try starting it.

...

[SIZE=14pt]*** NO!!! ***[/SIZE]

#5 is the only warning sign, and a hugely significant warning sign that things are not okay! Stop right there and check the cam chain carefully. Something is wrong!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I dare say that if you carefully rotate the crank to put the cams on the timing marks, THEN attempt to change the CCT, you stand a 50/50 chance of it slipping off as discussed. That particular position seems to place just the right pressure in just the right spots to cause the cams to rotate when given ANY slack.I believe that simply shutting down the engine in what tends to be one of its normal, relaxed positions, is much less risky. There again, many of us already have the top end open and the cams sitting on the mark for the valve clearance check procedure.

Back in the manual tensioner days, there were engines that had a mark on the crankshaft rotor designated as the cam-chain adj. mark. I was not TDC but some degrees after (don't remember? -- just always looked for the mark).

Suffice to say, I agree with H.A.'s comment on place with slack -- a place where the fewest cam lobes are being pushed-back least by the loaded/depressed valve springs.

It may behoove those that have installed the A.P.E. manual tensioner to research and locate that crank position?

 

[RadioHowie]

Having gone down this same sad, sickening road, I have a suggesting for those DIY'ers R&R'ing their CCTs.

Observe the picture:

The arrow indicates a gap between the engine block and the rear-most cam chain tensioner-slipper.

Before removing the existing CCT, wedge SOMETHING in that gap to maintain slipper tension on the chain. A hunk of wood, a chisel, stuff a rag in the gap. The point is, keep the tension on the chain.

While tie-wrapping the chain down around the crank sprocket is better than nothing, it really is removing the slack in the chain at the wrong place. The correct place to remove the chain slack is right where the CCT pushes against the chain slipper, so I believe the BEST way to keep the chain tight is to use the slipper to tension it.

Push the slipper against the chain, remove the CCT, replace the CCT, extend the new CCT's plunger, remove your wedge and you should be good-to-go.

I know this doesn't help the OP one stinkin' bit, but perhaps someone else can benefit.

 

[Fred W]

I dare say that if you carefully rotate the crank to put the cams on the timing marks, THEN attempt to change the CCT, you stand a 50/50 chance of it slipping off as discussed. That particular position seems to place just the right pressure in just the right spots to cause the cams to rotate when given ANY slack.

Bingo!!

I've noticed this on I4 auto engines as well. I've had 2 different SAABs that needed head gaskets, which obviously requires messing with the timing chains.

When you (intentionally) place the engine at TDC it seems to put the cam lobes on other cylinders into a position that they do not really want to remain in. Then, when you release the cam tension there is a chance that the pressure from the valve springs on one or the other cam will try to force the (now slack) chain to move, and it may skip teeth on the crank sprocket.

I'm betting that is what is at work here.

I would go with Jeff Ashe's recommendation to only replace the CCT when you also already have the valve cover off for a regular valve lash inspect.

[edit] Howie's solution of wedging the chain slipper to maintain tension during the CCT replace seems solid as well.