Cold Start Fast Idle Follow Up with resolution

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I did an exhaustive search on ebay and all the salvage sites I could find. I purchased a used starter for $150 only to find out the following day when the guy went to ship it that it had already been sold. I found a few others for $200 or more.

I bought a new starter for $326 from Ron Ayers. It is pretty labor intense to change the starter so I figures it wasn't worth saving a little over $100 bucks if I'd end up spending double that in labor to change out the used one down the road.
Thanks for all the additional info.

When my starter went bad, I was able to find a salvage unit over the net for $90. (Not ebay)

While it's not easy, changing the starter is not too bad: Clicky for my starter replacement thread.

About a year ago I was able to get a 'spare' used starter off ebay for like $50 shipped. I guess that is the advantage of being able to wait for a good deal vs. needing one right away.

 
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...Why so much carbon on some of these low mile bikes?

Limp right wrist? :unsure:
I'll throw this alternate theory out there.... if you twist the wrist, does this not significantly richen the fuel mixture, therefore increasing carbon production? Whereas, one who rides more moderately will have comparatively speaking, fuel mixtures that are closer to ideal and therefore a more complete combustion? Also, the ones who lug their engines down in too high a gear for the speed will also have more carbon production (as is the stereotypical grannie who only rides on Sundays after church).

So the trick is to ride where you have the most complete combustion at all times...... how the heck is that done anyway?

 
...Why so much carbon on some of these low mile bikes?

Limp right wrist? :unsure:
I'll throw this alternate theory out there.... if you twist the wrist, does this not significantly richen the fuel mixture, therefore increasing carbon production? Whereas, one who rides more moderately will have comparatively speaking, fuel mixtures that are closer to ideal and therefore a more complete combustion? Also, the ones who lug their engines down in too high a gear for the speed will also have more carbon production (as is the stereotypical grannie who only rides on Sundays after church).

So the trick is to ride where you have the most complete combustion at all times...... how the heck is that done anyway?
Gradually get to WFO whenever you ride. You have to do it gently though, so you don't richen the mixture too much. However, if you get there a little too fast, the constant bouncing off the rev-limiter should burn anything left over from the acceleration out....Or not.

 
I think I'll just ride the way I find is the most fun, and if carbon builds up, so be it. ;)

 
Hmmm...

On the OP's bike the combustion chambers and valve surfaces were fairly clean, and the theory is that the valve faces had become too hard to seal against the head properly. Is that right?

But in OCFJR's engine the theory is that the carbon accumulation is causing a poor valve seal? If so then these two engines both suffering from compression loss, but for completely different reasons.

Or is it possible that the obvious carbon buildup is just a red herring and the real issue is that some of OCFJR's valves have also hardened and are not sealing well? He said that the engine was still running well when it was removed, but the compression was just down.

I guess the only way to know would be to completely de-carbonize the head and clean the valve seats and then recheck the compression.

PS - +1 on the good people at Hudson Cycles. They treated me well when I had my tupperware replaced post deer strike, and I know that ionbeam had a reasonably good experience with them with his CCT induced top end rebuild. He actually recommended them to me.

 
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...NO START...the starter is drawing twice the current it is supposed to draw. Remove starter, it is all loaded with "guck". I take it to rebuild shop hoping to save the expense of a new starter and they confirm bad armature and can't rebuild it because the armature is un-available and they are not set up to rewind such a small armature....Starter has to be dealt with whether or not it is related to the fast idle issue. Bite the bullet and order new starter which is on back order. Wait 2 weeks.
Rick's Motorsports Electrics in nearby Hampstead, NH fixes starters, stators and voltage regulators as well as selling electrical parts. They have a rebuilt FJR starter for $175 with a rebate for the core of your whipped starter. One year warranty. I've seen some of the POS starters they have rebuilt, it is amazing how bad some of the starters are.

 
Ionbeam,

I contacted Rick's Motorsports Electric during my search for a starter. They said they were having a hard time sourcing an armature for the FJR starter. If my armature was definitely NFG they would not be able to rebuild it. They also said that they didn't have (and couldn't get) a rebuilt starter at the present time for the FJR. Their shop in Hampstead is right across the driveway from a friend of mine who has a custom stairbuilding shop. They were the second call on my list but couldn't help me out.

Bill Hamilton

 
Ionbeam,

I contacted Rick's Motorsports Electric...they were having a hard time sourcing an armature for the FJR starter. If my armature was definitely NFG they would not be able to rebuild it. They also said that they didn't have...a rebuilt starter at the present time for the FJR. Their shop in Hampstead is right across the driveway from a friend of mine...They were the second call on my list but couldn't help me out.
Then ya did more than what you might have to solve your starting issues. RME is just a couple of miles from my house so they are an easy stop-in. They did say that they don't see much FJR activity and looked at my FJR with hungry eyes... FWIW, armatures normally don't go bad until they have been turned several times. Usually motorcycle starters have a seal failure which leads to oil infiltration, then with heat and time things fail in an ugly mass of carbonized oil and brush debris.

 
Usually motorcycle starters have a seal failure which leads to oil infiltration, then with heat and time things fail in an ugly mass of carbonized oil and brush debris.
You don't say? :whistle:

Clicky for the gory photos!

While better than a new starter, $175 for a rebuild seems pretty steep to me. Hence why I still have my nasty old original starter still sitting in a box.

I have bought used replacements for $90 and $60.

 
Usually motorcycle starters have a seal failure which leads to oil infiltration, then with heat and time things fail in an ugly mass of carbonized oil and brush debris.
You don't say? :whistle:

Clicky for the gory photos!

While better than a new starter, $175 for a rebuild seems pretty steep to me. Hence why I still have my nasty old original starter still sitting in a box.

I have bought used replacements for $90 and $60.
Nice pics :clapping: FWIW I would be happy to refurbish & re-use that motor. All it needs is to pull the armature, 'undercut' the commutator (use something like a junior hacksaw blade), have the commutator skimmed to provide a nice smooth surface. Re-check the undercuts after the skimming. Then some basic electrical checks using an ohmmeter to confirm all the armature windings are good. Complete brush sets & O rings, are available here for example

So for about $50 and some of your own time you would have a completely serviceable starter motor :rolleyes:

Don

 
Usually motorcycle starters have a seal failure which leads to oil infiltration, then with heat and time things fail in an ugly mass of carbonized oil and brush debris.
My starter fits Ionbeams description perfectly. When the starter was disassembled by a reputable rebuilder, the armature was tested and the guy said that probably as a result of the oil contamination that the armature had an open circuit.

Bill

 
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https://www.lt1engines.com/tech/how-to-seafoam-your-car-clean-carbon-buildup/. Has anybody gone this far to remove carbon buildup? Or have you just added it to the fuel tank?

I have a 2010 and haven't used it in the bike yet.

I have, however, used it every 30k-50k miles in a Dodge truck with just under 300k miles on it.

it is a 5.9 liter engine and runs like new. pulled the plugs and compression checked it at 250k miles and all cylinders were within 10% of spec.

the oil is always changed at 3k miles and i run valvoline maxlife in this vehicle.

not sure how it would do in a bike with high miles, but when my day comes, i will be trying it, with confidence.

ymmv

 
https://www.lt1engines.com/tech/how-to-seafoam-your-car-clean-carbon-buildup/. Has anybody gone this far to remove carbon buildup? Or have you just added it to the fuel tank?
I have actually done that process with Miata engines, using Chrysler top end cleaner. It works very well. Expect black crap to come shooting out the exhaust pipe. Tip - don't have the garage door closed when you do this.

When I had the issues with my FJR, I ran a couple of bottles of Ring Free thru it, and really did not think carbon build up was the issue. The leak down testing showed leaks by the rings and valves, so I wasn't sure what to think. I did not do the vacuum line suck of Seafoam or Ring Free method on the FJR. Can't hurt, but I suspect I was too far down the rabbit hole for that to help.

 
"we will be sucking the seafoam into the brake booster hose marked by the red arrow."

Would sucking naphtha & alcohol into this "somewhat essential" rubber hose be a good idea? :rolleyes:

 
I've used Seafoam a lot, mostly on higher mileage vehicles. I did approx. 1/3 of a can in the gas, 1/3 in the oil and 1/3 down the power brake hose(except Mustangs, etc with hydroboost). Stalling-flooding the engine out can be tricky, so I like someone in the vehicle to turn the key off. Let it sit for 20-30 mins. to loosen the carbon and it will start like a flooded engine. Results vary from only light blue smoke on some vehicles(little or no carbon) to black smoke like a tire is burning. Feedback from some customers indicated it was like driving a new car.

I see dirty FJR throttle bodies posted here on the forum. I learned long ago that part of a fuel injection engine tuneup was cleaning the throttle plates, since it can cause stalling and/or rough idle on some vehicles. With the throttle open, use a rag with throttle body cleaner to remove the buildup.

 
I've used Seafoam a lot, mostly on higher mileage vehicles. I did approx. 1/3 of a can in the gas, 1/3 in the oil and 1/3 down the power brake hose(except Mustangs, etc with hydroboost). Stalling-flooding the engine out can be tricky, so I like someone in the vehicle to turn the key off. Let it sit for 20-30 mins. to loosen the carbon and it will start like a flooded engine. Results vary from only light blue smoke on some vehicles(little or no carbon) to black smoke like a tire is burning. Feedback from some customers indicated it was like driving a new car.

I see dirty FJR throttle bodies posted here on the forum. I learned long ago that part of a fuel injection engine tuneup was cleaning the throttle plates, since it can cause stalling and/or rough idle on some vehicles. With the throttle open, use a rag with throttle body cleaner to remove the buildup.
Do you need to change your oil after putting Seafoam in? I guess that would be safer, so just do it before an oil change is due?

 
Do you need to change your oil after putting Seafoam in? I guess that would be safer, so just do it before an oil change is due?
Putting it in the oil? Yes, absolutely. You should really only idle the engine for a little while with the seafoam thinning out the oil. Then do a complete change.

Problem with doing that on an FJR is that when you drain the oil you are leaving almost 1/5th of the volume still in the engine, so you won't be draining all of the Seafoam.

I wouldn't personally feel comfortable with doing that to an FJR.

Putting it in the gas tank, no oil change needed. Just like using any other injector cleaner, it will burn up in the combustion chamber and blow right out the exhaust.

Doing the vacuum line direct injection method? Who knows. Seems a bit invasive to me, but I will defer to those with direct experience.

 
I'm not sure if I believe all this magic, but there is something to it. Not much of anything dissolves carbon, and not likely anything as mild as naptha. I mean, have you ever tried to dissolve carbon with anything? You gotta chisel that stuff off... So, let's travel back in time (even older than Beemerdons), when they had water-injection in the old days. Water or high humidity makes an engine run better, and may have kept carbon build-ups down. How? Well water does not dissolve carbon but expands rapidly as it turns to steam. In my younger and perhaps foolish days, an old trick was to mist water into your car's carbeuretor while it was running on fast idle, the theory being that it would flake off the carbon and it would get expelled out the exhaust pipe, albeit with copious amounts of white steam. Quite a sight to see. I never had any ill effects except to stall out the engine if you poured in too much, but always wondered if any carbon was really removed or if a little flake would make it past the exhaust valve before being pounded into the seat as it flew by... who knows, but it never happened to me (I think). Did the car run like magic after that? Not really much difference, as removal of carbon really doesn't do anything, unless of course there was some build-up on the valves.

As for that recommendation in the article to run the snot out of the engine while Seafoam was in the oil, I would highly recommend against that with oil diluted with a solvent.... but another good oil/dirt/sludge cleaner was about 20% auto tranny fluid left in the oil for a couple of hundred miles or so (without running the snot out of the engine, it will circulate just fine at normal revs). More likely that oil additives dissolve stuff better when the engine is at operating temperature for a period of time. It does work to clean dirt out of ticking (stuck) hydraulic lifters, that I know. We don't have hydraulic lifters in FJR's.

Another possibility of poorer performance might be build-up of sludge on the intakes or throttle plates, and sticky intakes can be a source of low compression since they can't seat. We've got a post about that around here somewhere, and I would recommend taking a look before pulling a head off. A leak-down test will tell you intakes or exhaust valves or head gasket.

Ethanol fuels are good at loosening crud and varnish-like build-ups in our tanks naturally caused by gasoline evaporation, but they don't really dissolve it, they deposit it on other stuff, like intakes. Naptha is effective in dissolving this build-up slowly over time, but a big build-up is better dealt with using another method (harsher solvent/carb cleaner) or physical disassembly and cleaning if really bad.

Bottom line, spend some more time finding out what the cause of the low compression is and then plan the method of attack.

 
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