Counter steering (very useful when you know how)

[feejer222]

How many of you guys use counter steering?

The way it works:

When turning right or if you want to make a deviation in your line to avoid a pot-hole, push gently on the right bar. What happens is the wheel turns very slightly to the left, which means that the next bit of tread to hit the road isn't there and so the bike starts to 'fall off' the front of the tyre to the right. (Also works for left turns :blink: ) Dont let this scare you, you wont fall off, it takes a very special kind of stupid to push the bar enough to cause a crash.

I dont mean heave the bar I mean gently lean on it. If you havn't done it before try it at 20mph in a straight line. Once you get used to it you can use it when changing line going straight, then progress to using it to turn and to change line whilst cranked over. It feels like a fine adjustment screw is being turned on your bars allowing the smallest changes to line. It makes riding more fun (and easier) and can get you out of the doo-doo.

Its used in racing in every corner by every experienced rider.

 

[NightShine]

How many of you guys use counter steering?

All of us actually, but you left off that selection:

• Yes, I use counter-steering all of the time as it's the only successful steering method permitted by physical law when riding at speed.

 

[feejer222]

I was going to add, (but didn't) you probably use it and dont realise it.

The point being that if you are aware of it, you can choose to phisycally introduce it, iether at low or high speed to enhance your control of the bike.

 

[cougar8000]

You have no idea how many people ride and have no clue what it is.

 

[kaitsdad]

You have no idea how many people ride and have no clue what it is.

What ?

How do you steer a counter? The one in my kitchen doesn't even move -

that could be difficult.....

:blink:

 

[cougar8000]

You have no idea how many people ride and have no clue what it is.

What ?

How do you steer a counter? The one in my kitchen doesn't even move -

that could be difficult.....

:blink:

You would think that I am kidding you?! I wish I was. I have people show up in the MSF class that been riding and when we get to this subject they have no clue what it is. Just recently I was talking to my friend and he told me about some other forum where there was a huge debate if it really works.

SO, yeah. As I said, you have no idea how many riders out there that have no clue what it is. They think that if they can get from point A to point B they can ride.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

I'm with Cougar. I'm amazed at how many "experienced riders" not only never heard of it, but can't even grasp the concept when it's explained to them.

+1 on the statement that everyone uses it.....whether they know it or not. The better poll question is "Do you understand the concept of countersteering?". I don"t think the results would be so unanimous on that one.

 

[Toecutter]

You have no idea how many people ride and have no clue what it is.

Yeah, I do, actually. Probably most prevalent with the cruiser bike set. Probably the same amount that won't clamp the front binders because they are scared of getting tossed over the bars. Also probably in proportion to the number of people who shouldn't be on motorcycles. Basic MSF classes teach this and test each student. No CS, no swervy.

It's the only way to fly!

My personal best counter steering moment to date is detailed here. It's a great skill to learn well, along with emergency braking. The life you save may be your own, and/or that of a loved one.

 

[cougar8000]

Basic MSF classes teach this and test each student. No CS, no swervy.

Toe,

Are you saying that it is not taught at MSF or I am misreading what you said? Just in case I am not. Yes it is taught in the basic MSF class, and it is actually part of the test.

 

[wheatonFJR]

When I came to the FJR after 2 decades of non-riding...I did not know what CS was.

Now I do...(thanks to the internet and these sites) and I move my CG (ie- my *ss)...and I chant to myself "no target fixation". The combination of these three things saved me from possible major physical injury during an incident in 2005. Turned a major accident (collision with car) into a minor one (veered sharply right - avoided T-Bone w/car...yet sliding in country ditch).

Possibly could have avoided dumping in the ditch maybe if I had dirt bike skills...alas I didn't... however I continued on my way to SE Ohio and attended the ramble. "Have bungie...will travel."

A little knowledge and practice about these concepts will go a long way towards saving your life or limb out there.

 

[Zoltan]

Maybe I missed something here.

I didn't know I had a choice.

Zoltan :dribble:

 

[wheatonFJR]

Just a quick comment...experienced riders will know what CS is. However, when being taught by my friend's brother after I purchased my new 77 CB550F...that was not on the agenda. My early years, I did not know of that technique...therefore unless you are taught it...or it is mentioned on the boards...or if someone doesn't do the right thing and purchase a Hough book or take an MSF course...you will not know.

Therefore, for the increasing amount of newbies back to motorcycling after a long drought without riding, I think this a good reminder or check for the newer riders to check it out...learn more and practice.

 

[Zoltan]

I agree with the practice part. You must understand it completely in order to react properly.

I don't mean that you have to learn the exact science of counter steering. You just have to realise that it is the only way to turn a motorcycle, period.

If you choose to defy the laws of physics and steer your bike like a car, your turn count will go up x3.

3 lefts =1right, 3rights =1left.

Counter steering is a fact, not a choice or a technique.

Zoltan

 

[feejer222]

Counter steering is a fact, not a choice or a technique.
Zoltan

I beg to differ there. When riding in a straight line and an obsticle appears I can iether counter steer to avoid it, or I can lean and swerve to avoid it. The latter is phisycally harder and seems to take longer to carry out the change in drection. It probably causes counter steering to take place but is initiated differently.

Thus you can choose to do it or not. If you couldn't why would they even mention it in the training classes?

 

[wheatonFJR]

Counter steering is a fact, not a choice or a technique.
Zoltan

I beg to differ there. When riding in a straight line and an obsticle appears I can iether counter steer to avoid it, or I can lean and swerve to avoid it. The latter is phisycally harder and seems to take longer to carry out the change in drection. It probably causes counter steering to take place but is initiated differently.

Thus you can choose to do it or not. If you couldn't why would they even mention it in the training classes?

Before this thread devolves into a "I say/ you say"...

Let me say that the "push right - go right" technique is not something I learned in the 70's. I would just lean over and the profile of the mcy tire would take over. Much slower response than leaning AND actuating the handlebar for the initial turn in.

 

[bluesfool]

I beg to differ there. When riding in a straight line and an obsticle appears I can iether counter steer to avoid it, or I can lean and swerve to avoid it. The latter is phisycally harder and seems to take longer to carry out the change in drection. It probably causes counter steering to take place but is initiated differently.

Absolutely correct! I rode for the longest time (and unfortunately, I find myself still doing it at times) using only my weight to steer, shifting my weight around and then "waiting" for the bike to follow. As you said, this is harder and it DOES take longer to initiate. However, I'd venture to say that most people who haven't taken any courses steer by this method. The cs method is much quicker and precise, but quite a change from the former because the cs way realizes an immediate change in steering followed by the weight adjustment...just the opposite from steering by weight. I imagine some reason for this is psychological too because when you steer by adjusting your weight, your butt is always firmly planted on the seat/bike no matter how far you lean. CS requires the turning of the front wheel first, which means centrifical force will make the rider feel as if he/she is being flung off the seat/bike during a sudden change in direction. While the chances of this happening are so extremely low (you'd pretty much have to hit something solid with the wheel turned before that much force could be exerted...you're just not gonna turn the wheel that sharp, that sudden to do it) it just goes against instinct for us to put ourselves in that position. For those who aren't familiar with steering by cs, I highly recommend practicing with it and making it habit to steer that way instead...it could save your life someday.

 

[Groo]

I seem to recall a video a while back that was made to get rid of the "I use a shift of my weight to steer" argument. A guy welded a second set of handlebars to the bike, that weren't connected to the forks, so couldn't turn the wheel. He then got the bike going in a straight line, and grabbed the welded bars. The video showed him trying to turn the bike just by moving around and throwing his body from side to side... Didn't do squat. This would seem to show that despite the fact that you perceive that you're turning just using your weight, in reality you are in fact slightly moving the bars in a countersteer direction.

 

[cougar8000]

Gyroscopic force is a bitch to over come. You got to have a heavy tush to do it.

 

[Zoltan]

This lean vs counter steer argument has been going on since the bicycle was first invented.

Lucky for us the 'human machine" does not need to understand counter steering. We react instinctivly to steer our bikes in the proper direction.

I believe that once the bike is underway, the motorcycle becomes an upside down pendulum, the contact patches are the pivot point. No matter what method you use to get the job done, the front wheel must turn left to make the bike fall (lean) right. Steering input is the must efficient method. "Leaning" has the same effect, but the front wheel must turn left to make the bike fall right.

Instinctive riding seems so natural that I think many riders miss this basic rule of the 2 wheeled universe.

In an emergency situation I prefer to have this concept deeply ingrained in my brain, instincts are okay but knowledge is power.

I agree that we are beating a dead horse here so I have said enough.

Ride safe

Zoltan