Counter steering (very useful when you know how)

[feejer222]

This lean vs counter steer argument has been going on since the bicycle was first invented.Lucky for us the 'human machine" does not need to understand counter steering. We react instinctivly to steer our bikes in the proper direction.

I believe that once the bike is underway, the motorcycle becomes an upside down pendulum, the contact patches are the pivot point. No matter what method you use to get the job done, the front wheel must turn left to make the bike fall (lean) right. Steering input is the must efficient method. "Leaning" has the same effect, but the front wheel must turn left to make the bike fall right.

Instinctive riding seems so natural that I think many riders miss this basic rule of the 2 wheeled universe.

In an emergency situation I prefer to have this concept deeply ingrained in my brain, instincts are okay but knowledge is power.

I agree that we are beating a dead horse here so I have said enough.

Ride safe

Zoltan

Nope, sorry, not having it.

If you have to countersteer to turn whether conciously or not, then how do you steer when ridng no-handed?...I do it by leaning in the direction I want the bike to go. :dance: :nea:

 

[SkooterG]

I seem to recall a video a while back that was made to get rid of the "I use a shift of my weight to steer" argument. A guy welded a second set of handlebars to the bike, that weren't connected to the forks, so couldn't turn the wheel. He then got the bike going in a straight line, and grabbed the welded bars. The video showed him trying to turn the bike just by moving around and throwing his body from side to side... Didn't do squat. This would seem to show that despite the fact that you perceive that you're turning just using your weight, in reality you are in fact slightly moving the bars in a countersteer direction.

Yup.

Even those that "steer my moving their weight" are using countersteering without knowing it. Perhaps they are not using it to their full advantage, butYthey're using it. EVERYBODY uses it. Period.

Nope, sorry, not having it.
If you have to countersteer to turn whether conciously or not, then how do you steer when ridng no-handed?...I do it by leaning in the direction I want the bike to go.

Your point is a good one, but also lends to the argument that EVERYBODY countersteers. Sure, I can cause slight changes in the bike's direction by leaning with no hands on the bars, but I sure can't control it. And to get those slilght changes I have to lean waaaay far off the bike, which is impossible to do with the hands on the bars, meaning.......you guessed it, countersteering.

Well done feejer222, we haven't had a good mental masturbation thread in a while. One was due.

 

[Zoltan]

Okay I lied.

This article explains it pretty well.

Centrifugal Force

Causes counter-steering, not gyroscopics!

By: James R. Davis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just look at the real world instead of the theoretical. I mean, I am a fanatical fan of physics and I cringe every time I hear people using gyroscopic concepts to explain counter-steering. It smacks of pedantics, a scholarly sounding put-down of common knowledge. Besides, it is simply wrong.

The gyroscopic effect caused by trying to turn a spinning wheel does exist. So, if it were true that it is that effect which initiates counter-steering then in theory if you were to replace the front wheel on your motorcycle with a ski you could no longer counter-steer.

But exactly that has been done and that vehicle still REQUIRED the use of counter-steering to change directions. That can only be true if gyroscopics were incidental, not causative.

So let's look at what really causes a motorcycle to change directions.

Suppose that you are driving your motorcycle in a straight line and then provide a counter-steer input to go to the right. That would involve pushing the right grip forward and that, in turn, results in the front wheel pointing to the left.

In other words, 'pushing right' starts the bike making a LEFT-hand turn with a LARGE radius. No matter how large the radius is, it is part of a circle and centrifugal force tries to push your bike away from the center of that circle, right?

So centrifugal force pushes the bike to the RIGHT. Your bike's body is much more massive than is the front-end of that bike and it pulls the front tire over to the right as well. THAT is a demonstration that centrifugal force created the lean and change of direction to the RIGHT.

Now, if you happened to be moving in a straight line going very slowly before you pushed the right grip forward (or pulled the left one towards you) the bike would fall to the left, right? (The center of gravity has moved to the LEFT of the midline of your tank. Without centrifugal force the bike would, in other words, FALL to the left as a result of your 'push right' input.)

The difference between fast and slow speed turning is the amount of centrifugal force that exists and the amount of centrifugal force increases with the SQUARE of speed. When moving faster than about 6 MPH the amount of centrifugal force pushing the Center of Gravity of the motorcycle outward is greater than the amount of gravitational force pulling the Center of Gravity down (toward the inside of the turn) so the bike will lean to the OUTSIDE of the turn - to the right when the front wheel points to the left - instead of falling down.

Now you know, with real world experience, that centrifugal force is what makes counter-steering work, not gyroscopics.

And you should know that when a scholarly discussion resorts to pointing out that 'there is no such thing as centrifugal force, only centripetal force exists' it is pedantic, at best. Though true, such an argument distracts from understanding practical reality.

Those same 'I'm smarter than you are' arguing tactics could also be used to claim that 'there is no such thing as cold, only heat exists'. But in the real world you insure that your children get out of the cold and dress appropriately because we all live in a practical rather than theoretical reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 1992-2007 by The Master Strategy Group, all rights reserved.

https://www.msgroup.org

Zoltan

 

[feejer222]

Okay I lied.
This article explains it pretty well.

Centrifugal Force

Causes counter-steering, not gyroscopics!

By: James R. Davis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's just look at the real world instead of the theoretical. I mean, I am a fanatical fan of physics and I cringe every time I hear people using gyroscopic concepts to explain counter-steering. It smacks of pedantics, a scholarly sounding put-down of common knowledge. Besides, it is simply wrong.

The gyroscopic effect caused by trying to turn a spinning wheel does exist. So, if it were true that it is that effect which initiates counter-steering then in theory if you were to replace the front wheel on your motorcycle with a ski you could no longer counter-steer.

But exactly that has been done and that vehicle still REQUIRED the use of counter-steering to change directions. That can only be true if gyroscopics were incidental, not causative.

So let's look at what really causes a motorcycle to change directions.

Suppose that you are driving your motorcycle in a straight line and then provide a counter-steer input to go to the right. That would involve pushing the right grip forward and that, in turn, results in the front wheel pointing to the left.

In other words, 'pushing right' starts the bike making a LEFT-hand turn with a LARGE radius. No matter how large the radius is, it is part of a circle and centrifugal force tries to push your bike away from the center of that circle, right?

So centrifugal force pushes the bike to the RIGHT. Your bike's body is much more massive than is the front-end of that bike and it pulls the front tire over to the right as well. THAT is a demonstration that centrifugal force created the lean and change of direction to the RIGHT.

Now, if you happened to be moving in a straight line going very slowly before you pushed the right grip forward (or pulled the left one towards you) the bike would fall to the left, right? (The center of gravity has moved to the LEFT of the midline of your tank. Without centrifugal force the bike would, in other words, FALL to the left as a result of your 'push right' input.)

The difference between fast and slow speed turning is the amount of centrifugal force that exists and the amount of centrifugal force increases with the SQUARE of speed. When moving faster than about 6 MPH the amount of centrifugal force pushing the Center of Gravity of the motorcycle outward is greater than the amount of gravitational force pulling the Center of Gravity down (toward the inside of the turn) so the bike will lean to the OUTSIDE of the turn - to the right when the front wheel points to the left - instead of falling down.

Now you know, with real world experience, that centrifugal force is what makes counter-steering work, not gyroscopics.

And you should know that when a scholarly discussion resorts to pointing out that 'there is no such thing as centrifugal force, only centripetal force exists' it is pedantic, at best. Though true, such an argument distracts from understanding practical reality.

Those same 'I'm smarter than you are' arguing tactics could also be used to claim that 'there is no such thing as cold, only heat exists'. But in the real world you insure that your children get out of the cold and dress appropriately because we all live in a practical rather than theoretical reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 1992-2007 by The Master Strategy Group, all rights reserved.

https://www.msgroup.org

Zoltan

Thats interesting, and a concept I hadnt heard of, and a good explanation. Not 100% certain about it but it sounds right. Still doesnt explain (to me at any rate) why it is counter steering that works when i lean no-handed and the bike goes in the direction of the lean???

How then does it work when a bike is so far over that a rider has his knee down, surely the greater centrefugal force is the one throwing him in the opposite direction to the turn?

 

[Zoltan]

Hi feejer

Like scooter said You may not realise it but your movements with no hands on the bars are actually turning the wheel in a counter steer direction.

Glad you liked the article.

Zoltan

 

[feejer222]

AHA! That is when gyroscopics come in. When I lean no-handed the gyroscopic effect of the wheel makes it want to carry on in the same direction, my weight (and it's not insignificant :blush: ) is twisting the bike at the headstock, thus creating the counter-steer.

 

[panayoti]

be aware that the FJR has fairly wide bars so you have pretty good leverage. IE it doesn't take much input. My previous bike was an sv650 with much narrower bars. I actualy broke the front tire loose on the FJR trying to snap it around like the sv. I thought I ran over something slippery, went back to the corner found nothing. Did notice slide mark on the front tire.

 

[twowheelnut]

Twizzledicks. Counter steer is not used all the time. Try counter steering your ass around the parking lot and you'll find yourself a new trophy in the form of someones bumper!

:****:

 

[Zoltan]

[quote name='feejer222' date='Mar 17 2007, 12:43 PM' post='218054'

Thats interesting, and a concept I hadnt heard of, and a good explanation. Not 100% certain about it but it sounds right. Still doesnt explain (to me at any rate) why it is counter steering that works when i lean no-handed and the bike goes in the direction of the lean???

How then does it work when a bike is so far over that a rider has his knee down, surely the greater centrefugal force is the one throwing him in the opposite direction to the turn?

Sorry I missed the last point about the knee dragging part.

If the rider is leaned to the right, pushing the right bar will make him fall even farther right, there by decreasing his radius even more, pushing left will try to lift the bike back up, increasing his radius. He can decrease the lean angle of the bike and still maintain a tighter radius by "hanging off" the bike inside the radius. Remember the bike is trying to leave the center of the circle.

The "human machine' is a wonderful thing.

Zoltan

 

[twowheelnut]

Knee dragging? :blink:

Paging Dr. Burleigh, Dr. Burleigh, to the BS ring, STAT!

:lol:

 

[feejer222]

Scuse me ..........just being sick..........dizzy

How does it affect stoppies?

 

[Zoltan]

Twizzledicks. Counter steer is not used all the time. Try counter steering your ass around the parking lot and you'll find yourself a new trophy in the form of someones bumper!

TWN

You got that right.

Kabammmmm

Kind of amazing how we can sense the transition at about 6MPH. You are right about parking lot speeds, all the counter steering goes right out the window. In fact the slower you go you have to lean in the opposite direction, counter balance.

Counter something sheesh.

Zoltan :blink:

 

[Zoltan]

Knee dragging? :blink:
Paging Dr. Burleigh, Dr. Burleigh, to the BS ring, STAT!

:lol:

TWN

Why you wanna call BS on a fellow Vstrom rider.....

I bet you hang off that DL all the time :yahoo:

Zoltan

 

[Toecutter]

Toe,
Are you saying that it is not taught at MSF or I am misreading what you said? Just in case I am not. Yes it is taught in the basic MSF class, and it is actually part of the test.

I was trying to say that counter-steering IS taught at the basic MSF class level, and included in the riding test to pass the course.

I'm not sure about any DMV tests, but I'd imagine that it is a skill you do not have to demonstrate for that test. At least in California, where the test is done in a parking lot, I haven't heard of any administrators requiring test takers to swerve quickly at fairly good speeds. But they should....

In Ca, a certificate of completion for an MSF course allows you to forego the parking lot skills test, so all you have to do is pass their written (to attain a learner's permit) before taking the MSF class (as MSF requires a permit). In other words, you can take a motorcycle into the streets (not freeways) and eventually get an endorsement without any formal instruction whatsoever (if you learn on your own and not take the MSF course).

And they wonder why accident rates stay so high...

 

[v65]

I seem to recall a video a while back that was made to get rid of the "I use a shift of my weight to steer" argument. A guy welded a second set of handlebars to the bike, that weren't connected to the forks, so couldn't turn the wheel. He then got the bike going in a straight line, and grabbed the welded bars. The video showed him trying to turn the bike just by moving around and throwing his body from side to side... Didn't do squat. This would seem to show that despite the fact that you perceive that you're turning just using your weight, in reality you are in fact slightly moving the bars in a countersteer direction.

Keith Code's "No B.S. Bike Trainer". Its referenced in Lee Parks Total Control, and probably in Keith's book too, unfortunately that book seems to have disappeared from my library.

Teaching a class a couple of years ago, there was a woman in her forties trying to convince me I should buy an American motorcycle. She road with her boyfriend "The King", no kidding. He had been riding for twenty years, and according to her was the best rider ever. I asked her to ask him about countersteering. A couple of days I heard back from her - the reply was that he didn't know how he got through corners, he just did it. Sigh.

 

[twowheelnut]

TWN Why you wanna call BS on a fellow Vstrom rider.....

I bet you hang off that DL all the time :yahoo:

Zoltan

Nah, that thing doesn't go quick enough to hang off. :grin:

 

[SLK50]

As far as leaning vs counter-steering is concerned, motorcycles turn by leaning. Counter-steering initiates the turn by moving the contact patch to the outside of the turn and the bike leans into the turn.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

As far as leaning vs counter-steering is concerned, motorcycles turn by leaning. Counter-steering initiates the turn by moving the contact patch to the outside of the turn and the bike leans into the turn.

....and countersteering controls that lean angle through the turn. A good example is if you find yourself coming into a turn too hot. You may find it VERY helpful to press harder on the inside grip to avoid running off the road. The harder you PRESS (countersteer), the farther you're able to LEAN the bike.

....or you can ignore the whole countersteering principle and ride off the road!!!!

 

[Bounce]

I have people show up in the MSF class that been riding and when we get to this subject they have no clue what it is.

and, based on the last 2 times i took the erc, they'll leave the class without having a clue. at no time is the term used and, when asked during a break, the instructor explained that the "coaches" were told to avoid any of the previous techniques of explaining it. the first time i took an erc under the new curriculum, the method of dancing around the counter steering discussion was confusing to people who already knew what it was. people being exposed to it for the first time could be seen with their eyes glazing over due to the convoluted tap dancing.

this whole coach-stepping-back-and-allowing-a-student-to-learn approach is crap-o-la. why pay for a class when the teacher is prevented from TEACHING? if a student is supposed to learn on their own, why bother with the whole msf experience (and associated cost)? the only clear explanation is that it takes too long and there is a risk that someone who doesn't grasp it might not pass? leaving with anything other than a self-pleasuring experience might mean students won't come back for a repeat or might not tell their friends. and, if cash is the goal instead of helping riders become better riders, then you don't want to challenge them nor do you want others to use the teaching ideas and materials (including verbiage and illustrations) that riders gave your organization (without compensation, credit, or thanks) back when you were getting started.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

I have people show up in the MSF class that been riding and when we get to this subject they have no clue what it is.

and, based on the last 2 times i took the erc, they'll leave the class without having a clue. at no time is the term used and, when asked during a break, the instructor explained that the "coaches" were told to avoid any of the previous techniques of explaining it. the first time i took an erc under the new curriculum, the method of dancing around the counter steering discussion was confusing to people who already knew what it was. people being exposed to it for the first time could be seen with their eyes glazing over due to the convoluted tap dancing.

this whole coach-stepping-back-and-allowing-a-student-to-learn approach is crap-o-la. why pay for a class when the teacher is prevented from TEACHING? if a student is supposed to learn on their own, why bother with the whole msf experience (and associated cost)? the only clear explanation is that it takes too long and there is a risk that someone who doesn't grasp it might not pass? leaving with anything other than a self-pleasuring experience might mean students won't come back for a repeat or might not tell their friends. and, if cash is the goal instead of helping riders become better riders, then you don't want to challenge them nor do you want others to use the teaching ideas and materials (including verbiage and illustrations) that riders gave your organization (without compensation, credit, or thanks) back when you were getting started.

Bounce, don't take this as me defending the MSF, but effective rider education is a whole lot more involved than simply telling someone how to ride or explaining the physics behind it. The MSF class that Cougar was referring to is the BRC, the Basic Riser Course (keyword:Basic). Students learn basic riding skills when they're on the bike, riding, not when they're sitting in a classroom listening to an instructor explain the fairly complex concept of counteering. Students in the BRC learn countersteering by actually doing it and seeing that when they press right, they go right and visa versa. Taking the time to explain the physics behind it is pointless. It doesn't help them learn how to do it and is not only a waste of time, but FAR more information than a student who is developng basic motor skills needs to know. In a BRC...and a ERC, for that matter...it's VERY easy to overload a student with information they don't NEED to know. Countersteering is simply too advanced a concept. Most people, including those who've been riding for years, don't understand it no matter how you explain it.

Knowing "press left, go left; press right, go right" is critical. Knowing the physics behind why that works is not. Interesting as hell to guys like you and me, but not critical in a BRC.....or a ERC. Understanding the physics behind countersteering does NOT necessarily make a better rider, but can easily produce a more confused one.

(By the way, cash is not our goal in Illinois as both the BRC and the ERC are offered for free)