Counter steering (very useful when you know how)

[cougar8000]

+1 on what Larry said.

Bounce, I can't tell you what happens at ERC since I refuse to teach ERC. Have no patience for all of the egos that show up for the advanced class. What I can tell you is we do explain it fully in BRC, with out getting physics involved in conversation.

New method works. And we are not there to simply collect a pay check, oh boy I can take my wife out to McD again , we let students teach them self instead of just sit there and sleep through it. Now, they actually have to read and comprehend the information. And we make sure that it is done by having them talk about it and trying to explain it to others. If we see problems we step in and help them get to the truth.

 

[FJRottie]

we let students teach them self instead of just sit there and sleep through it

Bingo. I have been a mlitary instructor for many years and the principles of teaching is there.

You must teach to the common denomination in the class and you must have them "do" to understand. Lecturing them does nothing.

Simply going on and on about the science of counter-steering is unecessary. It is hit on in class, but if you don't "listen" and "think" you will not get it.

Everyone is taught it and some do not realize. You could make the classes longer and explain it to dipshit but why bother.

All the basic and tools are given out. It takes a real person to get more and learn more and not be complacent.

I remember getting counter steering in class and it was part of the test. Some people just did not "know" they were doing the actual act called "counter-sterring".

The term "counter-steering" was used a few times.

Whatever. Not everyone who rides, should ride, or is good at it. You could be doing it wrong for 30 years straight if you have the ignorance.

 

[Toecutter]

New method works. ...we let students teach them self instead of just sit there and sleep through it. Now, they actually have to read and comprehend the information. And we make sure that it is done by having them talk about it and trying to explain it to others. If we see problems we step in and help them get to the truth.

That sure sounds different from the class I took. I wrote on the evaluation form some suggestions about how they could improve the class and I volunteered to get involved with teaching. Never got a call....

Whatever. Not everyone who rides, should ride, or is good at it. You could be doing it wrong for 30 years straight if you have the ignorance.

Yeah, what he said!

 

[cougar8000]

New method works. ...we let students teach them self instead of just sit there and sleep through it. Now, they actually have to read and comprehend the information. And we make sure that it is done by having them talk about it and trying to explain it to others. If we see problems we step in and help them get to the truth.

That sure sounds different from the class I took. I wrote on the evaluation form some suggestions about how they could improve the class and I volunteered to get involved with teaching. Never got a call....

Sorry that you had a bad experience. As you know there are bad apples everywhere. Some people are in it for all of the wrong reasons.

Here in IL we listen to what our students are saying. Even the negative portion. last year I had a professor in my class that failed by 1 point and he was arguing how I should change the score since it is only one point. I asked him if he would do the same for his students got no reply back. then he send an e-mail to our program director who replied to him and cc'd me on it. SO, we do hear good and bad here. Our program director is a freak who has no life and likes to read students correspondents

 

[Zoltan]

This was an eye opener.

Good discussion on a topic important to everyone on 2 wheels.

For the none believers read post 22 till you get it. Try it on an open road till it becomes second nature.

For the rest of us add Counter Steering to the list of absolutes which includes Death and Taxes.

Okay now lets talk about rake and trail, just kidding.

Ride Safer

Zoltan

 

[feejer222]

Okay now lets talk about rake and trail, just kidding.
Ride Safer

Zoltan

Gardening in the outback?

 

[Bounce]

Bounce, don't take this as me defending the MSF, but effective rider education is a whole lot more involved than simply telling someone how to ride or explaining the physics behind it. The MSF class that Cougar was referring to is the BRC, the Basic Riser Course (keyword:Basic). Students learn basic riding skills when they're on the bike, riding, not when they're sitting in a classroom listening to an instructor explain the fairly complex concept of counteering. Students in the BRC learn countersteering by actually doing it and seeing that when they press right, they go right and visa versa.

not even the push-r, go-r process was mentioned in the "new" erc. it was talked about in such a convoluted way, no one "got it" as part of the range-side discussion. i'm not saying spend a lot of class room time on it, but to intentionally avoid using the term doesn't help either.

(By the way, cash is not our goal in Illinois as both the BRC and the ERC are offered for free)

no they aren't. it's supplimented by the state (and your taxes). ain't nothin' FREE.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

not even the push-r, go-r process was mentioned in the "new" erc. it was talked about in such a convoluted way, no one "got it" as part of the range-side discussion. i'm not saying spend a lot of class room time on it, but to intentionally avoid using the term doesn't help either.

I agree. It should not be totally avoided. I personally use the term "countersteering", explain that it's too advanced a concept to cover in detail in the class, and refer to the simpler-to-digest phrase "press right, go right; press left, go left"......then the students get on a bike and practice it so they feel it work and develop the motor skills to use it. Sounds like you might have had a rare encounter with an instructor who didn't know how to put the concept into perspective....or maybe he didn't understand it himself.

...no they aren't. it's supplimented by the state (and your taxes). ain't nothin' FREE.

Like any state-funded program, the money allocated is minimal and there's always someone (in our case, our fiscally irresponsible governor) trying to take what little we have away. It's also partially funded by motorcycle registrations. So if you ride, you also help fund rider education in the state. Classes are free for the student and trust me, NO ONE is getting rich off rider education....at least not in Illinois.

 

[Mike-H]

Man, I go away for a few days & miss all the fun :blink: .....so can anyone prove gravity is what keeps us on the ground? (should go hand in hand with this counter steering thread) :lol: .....

 

[BeeLine]

When I started flattracking in the 60's my pop just said turn right to go left and keep on the gas :blink:

 

[TruWrecks]

I NEVER use counter-steering! My FJR never exceeds 8 MPH. :lol2:

For the "I can turn with just by leaning" crowd, you can initiate counter-steering without even knowing it. When you shift your body to the right you pull the left bar back without really trying. That's an example of how it happens, without trying.

The Keith Code "No BS bike" is explained in the book "Twist of the Wrist" and Lee Parks "Total Control". I have tried the lean only approach on several bikes, and I can assure you the "No BS bike" is absolutely correct. If you lean without counter-steering, by picking you butt up off the seat to shift your weight, yes you can affect the bike enough to turn. It take a very, very, very long time to do it, but it will turn. If you apply even the slightest amount of counter-steering you will turn much quicker than leaning alone.

The purpose of "Hanging off" is to move your center of gravity to the inside of the turn, reducing to amount the bike needs to lean for a turn. Counter-leaning is beneficial for slow (parking lot speed) turns. pushing down on the outside peg of a slow turn will allow the bike to lean more without falling over.

Gyroscopic force is what keeps the bike from falling over while you ride, and it does affect steering.

 

[Carnifex]

When I first took the MSF in Delaware some 8-10 years ago they explained counter-steering in detail, and then we had to go out on the range and practice. I made it with no problem, since what they had explained just 'made sense'.

I took the class with my father-in-law and he just did not get it - we talked about it on the range waiting for our turn to run through the curve they had setup. When it was his turn to go, he made the approach to the turn and at the last minute tried to steer through it rather than counter-steer. Down he went.

He did end up passing the class, and got his endorsement, but he's never gotten a bike, and not been interested since then. I'll give him credit for finding out in the class before he dumped money on a bike.

 

[cougar8000]

Sounds like a smart man.

 

[radman]

I was trying to say that counter-steering IS taught at the basic MSF class level, and included in the riding test to pass the course.
I'm not sure about any DMV tests, but I'd imagine that it is a skill you do not have to demonstrate for that test. At least in California, where the test is done in a parking lot, I haven't heard of any administrators requiring test takers to swerve quickly at fairly good speeds. But they should....

In Ca, a certificate of completion for an MSF course allows you to forego the parking lot skills test, so all you have to do is pass their written (to attain a learner's permit) before taking the MSF class (as MSF requires a permit). In other words, you can take a motorcycle into the streets (not freeways) and eventually get an endorsement without any formal instruction whatsoever (if you learn on your own and not take the MSF course).

And they wonder why accident rates stay so high...

It was my wifes inability/refusal to grasp the concept of countersteering, even after my personal prep course prior to her taking the MSF, where she was again tutored in the finer points, that was was THE direct cause of her crashing while in the course, totaling a Suzi 250 POS, spraining her ankle and wrist, and forever after refusing to get on any 2 wheeler ever again. Leaners die young.

 

[Charlie Hoss]

As far as leaning vs counter-steering is concerned, motorcycles turn by leaning. Counter-steering initiates the turn by moving the contact patch to the outside of the turn and the bike leans into the turn.

SLK50,

You explained it best and in a way that's simple to understand. This also explains the no hands/lean to turn theory.

 

[Rickster]

Here's a little known fact (in his best Cliff Clavin voice...)

Yes you can steer at slow speeds.

Yes you counter-steer at higher speeds.

there's a transition speed from steer to counter steer somewhere 6-18MPH depending on some physical properties.

-BUT-

There's another transition at extremely high speeds back to steer from counter-steer!

This was discovered during land speed record setting.

The theory is that the aerodynamic properties of the motorcycle (note how fared land speed motorcycles are) overcome the mass properties at >300 mph (I can't recall the actual speed)

I seem to recall it was Don Vesco in about '75 -- but I can't remember exactly.

 

[James Burleigh]

The theory is that the aerodynamic properties of the motorcycle overcome the mass properties at >300 mph (I can't recall the actual speed)

I notice that too.

Jb

 

[Mike-H]

The theory is that the aerodynamic properties of the motorcycle overcome the mass properties at >300 mph (I can't recall the actual speed)

I notice that too.

Jb

+1 :grin: .....