Dirty Throttlebody Butterflies

[Constant Mesh]

Don't understand the concern about this issue. The dirty throttle valves apparently don't have any significant effect on the operation of the engine. If the throttle grip becomes difficult to turn due to dirty, high friction throttle valve pivots then you've got a problem which needs attention. If the throttle valves won't close properly for a good idle rpm that's obviously a problem.

As to the location of the dirt on the throttle valves that's caused by typical air flow patterns. When you're running along in high gear at a fairly constant engine speed the throttle valves aren't open all that much. The throttle valve air follows two basic paths. About half the air flow passes over the top half of the valve on its way to the engine. That's high velocity air so the dirt is carried along with the air into the engine. The remaining air flow passes below the lower edge of the throttle valve. From the valve's lower edge up to the center pivot the flow is stagnant, turbulent air which leaves a dirty deposit on the valve. No significant velocity to sweep it away.

 

[dcarver]

For accuracy, the clean top in this pix was because my curiosity overcame the pix taking.. it's been 'thumbed' and yes, it was goooey and gritty.

 

[Bustanut joker]

Well that's all fine an' good mosquito nuts.........

But how'd it taste?

 

[kaitsdad]

I'm thinking it's like this -

The only way to avoid the buildup on the TB plates is to not ride the bike.

 

[LAF]

I dont know the answer to this.

However running a Turbo PT Cruiser which is the SRT4 motor turned sideways and shoved into a telephone booth body. Years ago, it is a 03 and I bought it in late 02, it was discovered that the PCV valve would allow oil to blow by into your Turbo air tract and coke your turbo up. I only have 40,000 on the car but have emptied this too many time to count over the years.

This is a simple way to catch it and keep your turbo clean. I also have one on the inlet of my intake but it does not catch near the oil this one from the PCV valve does.

Not sure if it has an application here or not?

I had thought if you removed the PAIR system this would stop this. If you do not have the PAIR removed you may be able to fit one of these into the return to drop out oil and stuff from entering on the re-burn that the PAIR is supposed to provide?

 

[RossKean]

The point of analyzing the gunk is to determine the source. If it is essentially inorganic, it is almost certainly a function of improper/incomplete filtration of the incoming air - definately not a good thing. This would spell eventual doom for the engine. If organic, it is perhaps a non-issue (normal) but could indicate a possible problem with valves. Just because it "feels" gritty, it doesn't mean it is inorganic (sand etc.). It could be just oily carbon deposits. I was a bit shocked at the crud buildup on the reed valves when I installed the PAIR blockoff plates at 60,000 miles. I cleaned it off before installing the plates but I don't think it was "dirt", just combustion byproducts. It might be interesting to know whether those who have experienced heavy buildup are using for an air filter - aftermarket such as K&N or OEM. Some have claimed that the K&N offers poorer filtration and/or contributes to downstream goo because of the filter oil used. (I recently switched to OEM after using K&N) When I swapped filters, I did not notice any particular amount of dust/dirt or oil downstream from the filter.

Ross

 

[MajBach]

Wow! Just knowing that gunk is there is going to affect my sleep :blink: ! Do you think there is any type of additive to the fuel or a solvent like Sea Foam to apply periodically that might prevent the build-up on the butterflies or especially the cylinder heads?

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Without carry it too far off topic, the same type of buildup accumulates on the (single) butterfly on the intake of the GM V8 gas engines in the '99-06 trucks. This would actually start to make the throttle stick when coming from dead idle. Periodically the air duct would have to be removed and the throat and butterfly wiped clean with a rag and solvent. The crankcase vent is not upstream of the intake butterfly on those engines yet the buildup still ocurred. I don't have a clue what causes it but I am very interested if you find a definitive answer.

The valve overlap should be timed to pull the intake charge into the cylinder. It is not designed to push spent gases back into the airbox. I am not saying it does not happen but engineers have had many years to perfect this technology.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

... Do you think there is any type of additive to the fuel or a solvent like Sea Foam to apply periodically that might prevent the build-up on the butterflies or especially the cylinder heads?

Yes you are correct, IMHO.

In addition, stick with Top Tier Fuels for they have Better Quality Control Guidelines: https://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

Also, even though most will disagree with me, I use mainly 93 Octane (more Refined & Filtered) and sometimes 89 Octane. I feel the 93 Octane offers More Addititives/Detergents, and Less Ethanol. ALSO, my '03 Pings with 87 Octane especially during the Hot season.

As proof of this point, on another bike I have with Carbs, I use the same fuel as above, and when I had the Carbs off to modify some Jetting, they looked like they came out of an Ultra Sound cleaning machine... but they did not and with this picture, No Cleaning was involved.

(Note: Disconnected the Crankcase Breather System from the Carb Intake/AirBox about 8k miles before these Carbs were removed for jetting)

This was about 12k miles.

 

[MajBach]

... Do you think there is any type of additive to the fuel or a solvent like Sea Foam to apply periodically that might prevent the build-up on the butterflies or especially the cylinder heads?

Yes you are correct, IMHO.

In addition, stick with Top Tier Fuels for they have Better Quality Control Guidelines: https://www.toptierga.../retailers.html

Also, even though most will disagree with me, I use mainly 93 Octane (more Refined & Filtered) and sometimes 89 Octane. I feel the 93 Octane offers More Addititives/Detergents, and Less Ethanol. ALSO, my '03 Pings with 87 Octane especially during the Hot season.

As proof of this point, on another bike I have with Carbs, I use the same fuel as above, and when I had the Carbs off to modify some Jetting, they looked like they came out of an Ultra Sound cleaning machine... but they did not and with this picture, No Cleaning was involved.

This was about 12k miles.

I too run nothing but 93 octane, but not for the octane but for the refinement. I've always run the minimum octane the mfg recommends (except when towing using newer vehicles) until I bought the FJR. Regular gas prices are triple what they were when I had my Maxims and Secas but hi test fuel always seems to be a dime more, not a linear percentage, so one is getting a better 'deal' on higher octane. Plus, it's just not as easy to get at the engine to do periodic maintenance on the engine as in days of old. But mostly I run high test due to a policy our department recently introduced regarding ceasing to use gas stabilizer on our outboards, ATVs and snowmobiles but rather to run hi octane gas all the time in them, which not only kept the internals cleaner but also eliminated the need to use stabilizer. Go figure. Then again, the government has been known to make some stooopid policies in the past. :glare:

... Do you think there is any type of additive to the fuel or a solvent like Sea Foam to apply periodically that might prevent the build-up on the butterflies or especially the cylinder heads?

Yes you are correct, IMHO.

In addition, stick with Top Tier Fuels for they have Better Quality Control Guidelines: https://www.toptierga.../retailers.html

Also, even though most will disagree with me, I use mainly 93 Octane (more Refined & Filtered) and sometimes 89 Octane. I feel the 93 Octane offers More Addititives/Detergents, and Less Ethanol. ALSO, my '03 Pings with 87 Octane especially during the Hot season.

As proof of this point, on another bike I have with Carbs, I use the same fuel as above, and when I had the Carbs off to modify some Jetting, they looked like they came out of an Ultra Sound cleaning machine... but they did not and with this picture, No Cleaning was involved.

This was about 12k miles.

I too run nothing but 93 octane, but not for the octane but for the refinement. I've always run the minimum octane the mfg recommends (except when towing using newer vehicles) until I bought the FJR. Regular gas prices are triple what they were when I had my Maxims and Secas but hi test fuel always seems to be a dime more, not a linear percentage, so one is getting a better 'deal' on higher octane. Plus, it's just not as easy to get at the engine to do periodic maintenance on the engine as in days of old. But mostly I run high test due to a policy our department recently introduced regarding ceasing to use gas stabilizer on our outboards, ATVs and snowmobiles but rather to run hi octane gas all the time in them, which not only kept the internals cleaner but also eliminated the need to use stabilizer. Go figure. Then again, the government has been known to make some stooopid policies in the past. :glare:

 

[HotRodZilla]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

 

[MajBach]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

NO, there is a definite difference. It's NOT like throwing away your money on synthetic oil.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

+1

Since when is 10% of a gallon not exactly the same as 10% of a gallon? My math skills must be worse than I thought.

 

[MajBach]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

+1

Since when is 10% of a gallon not exactly the same as 10% of a gallon? My math skills must be worse than I thought.

Yes, but Canadian gallons are a different size than American ones so 10% of a Canadian gallon IS a different amount of ethanol than 10% of a U.S. one. Kinda the same as with the beer, ya know?

 

[wheatonFJR]

Yes, but Canadian gallons are a different size than American ones so 10% of a Canadian gallon IS a different amount of ethanol than 10% of a U.S. one. Kinda the same as with the beer, ya know?

So, if they said they would put a 10% additive in your Canadian Beer, you wouldn't mind because a Canadian Gallon is different??

Do you have relatives in Owosso, MI?? :lol:

 

[MajBach]

Yes, but Canadian gallons are a different size than American ones so 10% of a Canadian gallon IS a different amount of ethanol than 10% of a U.S. one. Kinda the same as with the beer, ya know?

So, if they said they would put a 10% additive in your Canadian Beer, you wouldn't mind because a Canadian Gallon is different??

Do you have relatives in Owosso, MI?? :lol:

Depends on the additive

I was curious now that we're on the topic and pulled this from Shell Canada:

Is Shell V-Power premium gasoline safe for all vehicles?

• Shell V-Power is effective in all gasoline-powered engines found in conventional, modern and hybrid vehicles as well as motorcycles, snowmobiles, and leisure marine vehicles.
• Tested in today’s advanced turbo-charged and direct injection engines, Shell V-Power helps resist thermal breakdown at high temperatures, actively protecting against gunk under tough engine conditions.
• Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol

Chevron 94 octane doesn't either. Explains why I never seem to get a buzz off of either brand...just like the beer.

 

[RossKean]

"Premium" gas is not more refined at all. It just has a composition that is more resistant to detonation. This is an issue in high-performance high compression engines but not in the FJR. Compression ratio is not high enough to require premium grades.

I don't know about other areas, but around here, premium is not supposed to contain ethanol. Mid-grade is supposed to be 5%. I am currently running regular but have considered a switch - just to avoid the ethanol. Of course, you have to take their word for the absence of ethanol in premium unless you want to have it analyzed. Running alky-free gas might improve economy to partially offset the cost but don't expect power gains or cleaner running.

Ross

 

[beemerdons]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

Oh for Petey's sake HotRodZilla, yesterday you were picking on the damned Dutch and I yelled at you for that! Now today you are picking on the Canuckistanis, for Howie's sake AJ stop picking on the little kids!

 

[MajBach]

WOW...What do they put in the water to get you guys to believe that crap?

So now 93 octane fuel has less 10% ethanol than 87 octane fuel with 10% ehtanol?

I don't know if you know this, but I have a really nice bridge for sale. PM me...

Oh for Petey's sake HotRodZilla, yesterday you were picking on the damned Dutch and I yelled at you for that! Now today you are picking on the Canuckistanis, for Howie's sake AJ stop picking on the little kids!

Actually, it wasn't me that suggested that 93 octane has less ethanol, it was one of you "YankMes". But as it turns out, he was right; the amount of ethanol in the Super Unleaded I use has about as much ethanol as there are cars his bridge can hold.

 

[wfooshee]

"Premium" gas is not more refined at all. It just has a composition that is more resistant to detonation. This is an issue in high-performance high compression engines but not in the FJR. Compression ratio is not high enough to require premium grades.

I don't know about other areas, but around here, premium is not supposed to contain ethanol. Mid-grade is supposed to be 5%. I am currently running regular but have considered a switch - just to avoid the ethanol. Of course, you have to take their word for the absence of ethanol in premium unless you want to have it analyzed. Running alky-free gas might improve economy to partially offset the cost but don't expect power gains or cleaner running.

Ross

Around here all grades are up to 10% ethanol, unless you find a station that sells ethanol-free. There are a few, but they charge a premium that is significantly more than a 10% bump.

As for "more refined," some brands claim to have a different additives package in their premium fuel.