Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Oh fer **** sakes!! The hijack is complete..
Damn that fuker Zilla
Dirty Throttlebody Butterflies
- Thread starter SkooterG
- Start date
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Oh fer **** sakes!! The hijack is complete..
Damn that fuker Zilla
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Its not my fault. I love my mangina care bag. It holds all my necessary supplies. Matter of fact, I like it so much, I could be a zealot! You know how we are.
Oh fer **** sakes!! The hijack is complete..
Damn that fuker Zilla
beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Its not my fault. I love my mangina care bag. It holds all my necessary supplies. Matter of fact, I like it so much, I could be a zealot! You know how we are.Oh fer **** sakes!! The hijack is complete..
Damn that fuker Zilla
LAF
Well-known member
I would like to find this area. I will put one of my water collectors in line to see if it catches anything.
I would rather empty it once in awhile then have my TB looking like a mud holes.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
All that sounds logical and does point somewhat to fuel quality, but does not add up. If the gases thermosiphon up and condense, why on the surface of the butterflies and not on the inside of the intake runners? Skooter has pictures of clean intake runners and dirty butterflies. I will believe that the butterfly is of thinner material and cools faster and could possibly let gases condense before the intake runners. It can't all stop on the butterflies, it would also be in the airbox and on the downstream side of the air filter.
Perhaps those BMW engineers should concentrate on solving their final drive issues and leave this diagnosis to Skooter.
Another thing, those pics were, I believe from Skooter's old bike which he says never used any oil. If it's on the butterflies, it ain't in the crankcase. It is of course a relatively small amount and might not be noticed.
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beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
For Petey's Sake Redfish Hunter, my illegitimate ******* Son GreggieM couldn't piss in a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel! jes' sayin' and nuff' said!
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
It is for certain that you know Skooter better than I ever will but after reading his posts he seems pretty smart and competent to me. The mileage #s he has posted for his FJR's are far more than I will accumulate in my lifetime, he must have learned something by now. Of course if we were investigating the butterflies pasted to the chest of that lovely blonde I would show more enthusiasm and hopefully more expertise.
beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Say what?Ah, crap. Now he'll never fit his head into his helmet!
wfooshee
O, Woe is me!!
Why is oil on one half and not the other? Airflow.
At very low throttle openings, most airflow will be through the bottom of the plate, the side that opens inwards, towards the valve.
And even if you ride 95 mph on the freeway, your throttle is pretty damn cose to closed. Maintaining speed is almost a no-load condition for this bike.
Why the oil accumulates at all: It exists, therefore it gathers. The crankcase vents to the intake, so the crankcase doesn't explode. (Actually, the engine would stop running before it had enough pressure to pop the case... But that's why we have to vent the crankcase.) As to why on the plates and not the interior of the instake passages, the plates are a different metal, and I'll bet they're a different temperature while the bike runs. Vapor hits slightly cooler surface, condenses. (OK, the temp difference is a guess, but based on observed behavior.)
Gas? Who cares? Gas never touches the throttle plate, any time, any how.
PAIR? Nothing to do with it. All PAIR does is vent air into the exhaust stream. Has nothing to do with the airbox. The hose to the airbox is a source of air to put into the exhaust; that air flows out of the airbox, not in.
At very low throttle openings, most airflow will be through the bottom of the plate, the side that opens inwards, towards the valve.
And even if you ride 95 mph on the freeway, your throttle is pretty damn cose to closed. Maintaining speed is almost a no-load condition for this bike.
Why the oil accumulates at all: It exists, therefore it gathers. The crankcase vents to the intake, so the crankcase doesn't explode. (Actually, the engine would stop running before it had enough pressure to pop the case... But that's why we have to vent the crankcase.) As to why on the plates and not the interior of the instake passages, the plates are a different metal, and I'll bet they're a different temperature while the bike runs. Vapor hits slightly cooler surface, condenses. (OK, the temp difference is a guess, but based on observed behavior.)
Gas? Who cares? Gas never touches the throttle plate, any time, any how.
PAIR? Nothing to do with it. All PAIR does is vent air into the exhaust stream. Has nothing to do with the airbox. The hose to the airbox is a source of air to put into the exhaust; that air flows out of the airbox, not in.
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Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Pair?? I have a Pair.. Wanna touch 'em?
RadioHowie
I Miss Beemerdons!
Not according to the photo of you MizNut posted on Facebook...
But judging from the purse she carries, we KNOW where your pair is...
LAF
Well-known member
I guess my question would be if the PAIR is not involved why does DynoJet have you "disable" it when using their Auto Tune?
Just trying to understand this circulation and recirculation of air on the FJR.
beemerdons
Certifiable Old Fart
Dear Bustanut joker and to your Twin Brothers RadioHowie and HotRodZilla, have you ever seen a bigger pack of Worry Warts, Chicken Littles and Nervous Nellies than these dirty TB folks???
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Really? Why would that be? The round plate is being tilted inside of the cylindrical (round) throttle bore, so the opening at the top and bottom will be equal. I will grant you that more air flow may pass below the plate due to the pressure buildup on the leading side of the plate, but there should still be significant air flow over the upper edge.
This would be true if it is functioning exactly as intended. There is are some reed valves in the four PAIR ports on the valve cover, whose job it is to prevent the exhaust from back flowing into the airbox (when the PAIR solenoid is open). But reed valves can get gooked up and leaky. So it is entirely plausable that there is some amount of exhaust backflow into the airbox if the PAIR plumbing is hooked up.
I didn't think that they do. At least they didn't for my PCIII. I think that they have you disable the O2 sensor, not the PAIR.
edit - I just checked out the DynoJet web site. I now see why they would want you to disable PAIR. The Autotune's wideband O2 sensor would interpret the added air from the PAIR system as a lean condition and would add too much extra fuel anytime it is open. Disabling while tuning it allow the autotune to generate an unadulterated fuel map for the engine.
The PAIR is just there to inject additional fresh air (oxygen) into the spent exhaust stream, under very limited circumstances, to assist the catalytic convertors. Most of the time the PAIR solenoid is closed which blocks the path between the airbox and cylinder heads. At idle, and during a cold start, the solenoid is opened. The four reed valves prevent the exhaust from traveling backwards into the air box, but allow the added air to flow into the exhaust stream between exhaust pressure pulses.
The only thing that does get intentionally recirculated is the crankcase ventilation. There is always a certain amount of blowby, even on a healthy engine. This would result in a highly pressurized crankcase and, eventually, blow out the engines oil seals. Rather than venting this gas to atmosphere, the designers opted to vent it to the clean side of the airbox. (Maybe the dirty side would have been a better choice?) From there the blowby gasses get diluted and burnt along with the intake air charge.
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canadianfjrowner
Well-known member
Ok guys:
Let's get back to the topic. This same issue arises in the Yamaha 1000cc 4 cylinder snowmobiles. I ran these into the ground and the crankcase vent hose would just be dripping with oil. We need to look at 2 issues. This "contaminated" air entering the cylinder, does it burn clean or not. I was hoping someone would have a boroscope and take some pictures from inside the cylinder on a high miler. Mine only has 1000 miles on it so it will take a while for me to do this test. Second, it is well known in the automotive world that a clean throttle body and air intake system will definitely make an engine run smoother. You can run an intake cleaner vaporizer (induction service) on this bike. Use the BG Products cleaner. We have seen great results. Because of the separate throttle bodies, you have to do each individually. This may take some time. I run a 10 bay automotive diagnostics shop and whenever we do a combustion chamber cleaning, the fuel trim goes back to neutral. This showns more complete combustion of fuel. As for the picture of the clean old carbs, it is obvious that the crankcase vented to the atmosphere. For those of you that are of the non-tree hugger society, just re-route the vent tube to atmosphere under the bike. Most of the problem will be solved. After all, this bike doesn't have an air flow meter yet. This will come soon enough though I bet. To me a regular air intake service every 30k miles would work wonders to keep the intake and combustion chamber clean.
Let's get back to the topic. This same issue arises in the Yamaha 1000cc 4 cylinder snowmobiles. I ran these into the ground and the crankcase vent hose would just be dripping with oil. We need to look at 2 issues. This "contaminated" air entering the cylinder, does it burn clean or not. I was hoping someone would have a boroscope and take some pictures from inside the cylinder on a high miler. Mine only has 1000 miles on it so it will take a while for me to do this test. Second, it is well known in the automotive world that a clean throttle body and air intake system will definitely make an engine run smoother. You can run an intake cleaner vaporizer (induction service) on this bike. Use the BG Products cleaner. We have seen great results. Because of the separate throttle bodies, you have to do each individually. This may take some time. I run a 10 bay automotive diagnostics shop and whenever we do a combustion chamber cleaning, the fuel trim goes back to neutral. This showns more complete combustion of fuel. As for the picture of the clean old carbs, it is obvious that the crankcase vented to the atmosphere. For those of you that are of the non-tree hugger society, just re-route the vent tube to atmosphere under the bike. Most of the problem will be solved. After all, this bike doesn't have an air flow meter yet. This will come soon enough though I bet. To me a regular air intake service every 30k miles would work wonders to keep the intake and combustion chamber clean.
wfooshee
O, Woe is me!!
The tilt itself is what forces the air to the side that tilts inward. Any air that does go through the top side never actually lays against the throttle plate, what with the plate being downstream of that opening.
Total WAG, but fits observed conditions.
FJRMGM
FJRMGM
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
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so enough talk about the soot - how are you guys cleaning it off the throttle plates and what are you using?
johnny80s
Turtle Gears
SkooterG
Purveyor of Crooked Facts
Naaaah. It's all about dirty TBs so it's all good. Thanks anyways.
How do you clean them? Only one way - remove the airbox and carefully clean them with a rag.
