Does punctuation matter?

[Fred W]

I have to side with Dr Rich on this one. As much as it irks me to read misspelled, improperly punctuated, or poorly constructed writing, it is elitist to expect that everyone in our modern society would have the same communication abilities.

You cannot possibly tell by someone's punctuation and writing skills if they are stupid. Ignorant maybe, or uneducated perhaps. But intelligence can't possibly be gauged by one's writing ability.

People are typically classified in their intelligence based solely on their ability to memorize and recall. That isn't intelligence. My computer does that quite well and it is about the stupidest thing possible. It has never had an original thought even once.

A favorite quote of mine from Samuel Clemens :

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

 

[uctofeej]

Interestingly, "The Elements of Style," the book that all grammar monkeys were taught in college to use as their guide, has run into some heavy shelling from a very credible source.
See this link

Ha! That was great for a laugh. Thanks!

There is an underlying context to my comment and the article author demonstrates it.

Despite the post-1957 explosion of theoretical linguistics, Elements settled in as the primary vehicle through which grammar was taught to college students and presented to the general public, and the subject was stuck in the doldrums for the rest of the 20th century.

Formal education is no way to learn. It's full of efforts to establish authoritative knowledge, which is then poured into passive minds who sit at desks like leaky sponges. Strunk and White's book is an excellent example of that.

I would ask, who here really, truly understands and applies the rules of English grammar in all their communication? (My personal answer: Who cares?) The real answer is no one. The "rules" as we know them were established a few centuries ago and no longer apply. Language is fluid and ever-changing. The Internet is to punctuation what the printing press was to the growth of secular language. Before Gutenberg, if it wasn't Latin it wasn't right. Punctuation is going through a similar transition.

Maybe Dr. Rich is on to something. But I wouldn't say it makes someone elitist, maybe it just makes them conservative and longing for the "good ol' days."

 

[Aasland]

When the writer is capable of writing properly, and chooses not to, it implies a lack of respect for the reader.

I agree!

We're not talking about minor lapses in grammar and punctuation, but such a lack of effort put into communicating that the reader is left to decode what the writer intends. When I find myself annoyed at decoding the message, the distraction is enough for me to say "screw it, the writer clearly doesn't think what they have to say is important enough to clearly convey their message to me."

Something has to be said for high school graduates who can't read or write at a 3-rd grade level. Each individual is different, and I'm sure many are "stupid", but I tend to put most of the blame on the teachers for letting them graduate with such a poor core skill.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Um... Yeah...

I'm going to have to disagree with Dr. Rich on this one. The arguments seem well intended and misguided.

I remember correcting my daughters when they were young. I remember them saying "Well, that's the way I say it." Was I wrong to correct them? Should I have encouraged them to use their own version of the language?

Name calling is a classic red herring employed by those with a weak argument. Calling those who offer correction “elitist” and choosing to remain a fool is one thing. Making that choice for others is much more sinister.

 

[Fred W]

Name calling is a classic red herring employed by those with a weak argument. Calling those who offer correction “elitist” and choosing to remain a fool is one thing. Making that choice for others is much more sinister.

Huh? Calling someone elitist is "name calling"? It seems more a commentary on their attitude to me. And nobody was saying it is elitist to offer correction. It was said that it is elitist to assume that everyone with bad writing skills is stupid.

Baselessly calling someone stupid, now that is name calling.

 

[wfooshee]

Me to teenage daughter trying to fill out junior college papers: "You have to make a good impression, and this randomization of letters, marks, and numbers does no such thing. They need moderately educated students to fill college classrooms, and this shows nothing about an education."

Teenage daughter: "They can tell what I mean, so like, what difference does it make if it's your opinion of 'correct?' All my friends like, helped me with this anyway so I know it's good!"

Me: {facepalm}

 

[JR'SFJR]

Maybe we should close the forum to just English professors?? I can't remember meeting one on two wheels!!!

 

[madmike2]

Maybe we should close the forum to just English professors?? I can't remember meeting one on two wheels!!!

I have, but he wasn't on a "bus man's holiday", he just wanted to ride.

 

[Shane]

This is a good question, and folks certainly have responded at a rate that demonstrates this.

(Soapbox "on"--because I want to send the message that I care deeply about this, and realize that my comments may come across in a "snarky" way)

I think about how I come across in the written word practically every day, due to the volume of written (electronic and paper) messages that we send and receive constantly. Posters above touch on this several times--we transmit a version of ourselves with every message we send, either by intent, or by accident. The downside to writing as the only carrier of that self-portrait is that all the non-verbals are missing--smiley's can only do so much.

In my opinion, it's less a question of education or intellect than it is a question of care and attention to the reader(s) needs--not to say that there are not educational and intellectual differences that are at work as well. The harder it is to divine the intended meaning of any writer, the less likely it is that the intended purpose of the author will be realized.

The example of the Panda bear above points out that, in certain cases, the reader(s) of our written messages may react in a completely unanticipated fashion, based on a possible interpretation that was left to accident. This is not always important, and can even be funny, but it might just as easily be disastrous.

So, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to proof read and edit, if necessary, before hitting "send" or "add reply", as the case may be.

If it doesn't matter to you, then don't be surprised if your random messages get random results.

(Soapbox "off"--thanks for your indulgence)

Shane

 

[rushes]

This whole discussion cracks me up....

What the hell does it matter?

I mean really, this is a large group of diverse individuals with one thing in common. If we all were standing around drinking beer, and having a good time, would you care if proper grammar was (or were, not sure) being used?

Sorry, I guess I don't git it.... :dntknw:

edit: OK, this was about punctuation, but I think you get my drift...

 

[HYCLE]

Let's eat grandma :blink:

 

[HYCLE]

Does punctuation matter?

I read your first post again, looking for a deeper meaning, and now understand the question.

Let me rephrase the question:

If a group of female deer were writing, would punctuation be important for them to communicate?

 

[Texan]

If, as a matter of course, the person intentionally tries to disregard proper convention, then I say flog them.

Absolutely! We agree on this point completely. Now, we must ask how we can determine who is wilfully disregarding the rules (other than Mad Mike2) and who doesn't even KNOW that there are rules.

I do agree that no-one should be discouraged from participation due to a lack of ability. Heck, look at some of the idiots that we allow to share our roads with us when we ride. There is a definite lack of ability out there, but they have (or assume) drivers' licenses anyway.

Which way would you treat this one? Example from our own flock.

 

[dcarver]

Ask the real question JB -

Does SIZE matter? :rofl:

 

[SockMonkey]

Does SIZE matter? :rofl:

Apparently, yes it does...

 

[Old Michael]

... misguided.
Name calling is a classic red herring employed by those with a weak argument.

... choosing to remain a fool is one thing....

Oh fucking PLEASE.

Should I be writing this down?

 

[HYCLE]

... misguided.
Name calling is a classic red herring employed by those with a weak argument.

... choosing to remain a fool is one thing....

Oh fucking PLEASE.

Should I be writing this down?

Better to be silent and thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. :dribble:

I represent that remark.

 

[Toecutter]

If we all were standing around drinking beer, and having a good time, would you care if proper grammar was (or were, not sure) being used?Sorry, I guess I don't git it.... :dntknw:

edit: OK, this was about punctuation, but I think you get my drift...

All the people I have "stood around drinking beer" with could naturally punctuate and pronounce a good deal of their speech, but writing takes a bit more effort, especially when intoxicated....

 

[Silver Penguin]

Ask the real question JB -
Does SIZE matter? :rofl:

Can you read the sticker on the bike? It says that Size Matters!

 

[RsvlFeej]

Oh fucking PLEASE.Should I be writing this down?

Nah, then you'd be running afoul of this:

Formal education is no way to learn. It's full of efforts to establish authoritative knowledge, which is then poured into passive minds who sit at desks like leaky sponges. Strunk and White's book is an excellent example of that.

Quit being so goddamned passive OM, and let us know what you really think.