Does punctuation matter?

[Toecutter]

Does the Internet make people stupid?

No, we're already stupid. It just provides a place for us to showcase it....

 

[Tek]

I blame it all on cell phones, and those cryptic text messages.

txtn is hawt

Huh? :unknw:

sending text messages on one's cell phone can be fun and enjoyable

...and with a bit of planning, downright evil :evilsmiley:

It's even more fun to use your friend's phone (and more evil if they don't know....)

On a slightly more on-topic note, look for the book "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" I think you'll like it.

 

[uctofeej]

Didn't the founding fathers say something about the dangers of letting the masses vote directly? In this case, they're voting traditional language rules out of existence.

 

[ndivita]

Paging Mrs. Grundy....

 

[madmike2]

IntheenditdoesntreallymatterWhatdospacesandpunctuationreallyhavetodowith

readabilityofaparticularstatementAnyonewiththeslightestabilitytodeciphertheEnglishlanguage

shouldbeabletointerpretwhateveranyotherpersonwritesIthinkeveryoneisovereactingtothesimple

requestthatawellplacedcommacapitalizationapostrophyorotherpunctuationmighthelpareader

understandthepointacontributororauthoristryingtomakeThisisjustoneundereducatedmansopinion

ofwrittencommunicationYMMV

[SIZE=8pt]Comment: Breaks in the sentences above were made to shorten the width of the post as a completely run on sentence would be extremely wide.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8pt]Just for Bob: In the end it doesn't really matter. What do spaces and punctuation really have to do with readability of a particular statement? Anyone with the slightest ability to decipher the English language should be able to interpret whatever any other person writes. I think everyone is overreacting to a simple request that a well placed comma, capitalization, apostrophe or other punctuation might help a reader understand the point a contributor or author is trying to make. This is just one under educated man's opinion of written communication. YMMV.[/SIZE]

 

[hotbike dave]

I followed a link from this forum over to a speed-traps site and came across this post:


"I was caught in this speed trap I was going 68 miles per hour and was pulled over by a motorcycle unit he said do you know how fast your going I said ye 68 mph, he said no you were doing 83mph what a bunch of crooks"
The above comment gets an F- in punctuation. It's missing about 32 periods, including the last one. A semi-colon would have been an astonishing display of punctuation dexterity rarely seen on the Internet. And how did the poster determine that a comma was necessary? Better make that a solid F instead of F-.

The above post and others on the Internet make me wonder: Is punctuation completely optional on the Internet? Or maybe this person is just uneducated (stupid?). If it's the latter, then 90% of all respondents on, say, YouTube, are uneducated (in the case of YouTube, add angry and vindictive; but that'll have to be another post).

Does punctuation matter?

shee edonmatter got all you punch marks in ma baggy pants dog cane be all cool an shee usn dat complketed shee-------- ya well f stoopid tha done let ya stay in skool but so long then ya gradgeate

 

[Dr. Rich]

I have watched this thread with some interest from its inception and find I have to comment. I find the premise of the thread to be elitist and arrogant.

Many in our country and around the world have not had access to the type of education that some of us have. To point out the shortcomings of others in terms of their ability to compose written language is unfair at best. To infer that some people are stupid because they lack written skills is an effort to make yourself feel that you are somehow better or more intelligent. I assure you that you are not!

In the early 1980s there was an accepted movement in schools called “Whole Language.” The concept as embraced by educators was to allow students to be creative and expressive in their work and not to focus on the confines of structure. While the concept was noble, the results were less than satisfactory when that generation tested on standardized measurements such as the SAT and ACT tests: while their creativity soared, their grammar, spelling and punctuation suffered.. Education had created a generation of highly creative and expressive individuals that lacked the rudiments of written language. My daughter who currently holds a graduate degree is one of those students.

‘Improper’ spoken and written language conventions will always be the elitist’s way to degrade those who by choice or circumstance did not have access to higher levels of learning. It reminds me of the old Winston Churchill story….

A woman at a party came up the Winston Churchill and derided him for being drunk. Mr. Churchill turned to the woman and proclaimed that he was in fact drunk but that in the morning he would be sober. He then challenged her that while his condition was temporary, she in the morning would still be ugly. I submit to you that those that struggle with written language have the ability to learn and increase their skill, but some of you will be elitist and arrogant in the morning!

 

[ndivita]

It reminds me of the old Winston Churchill story….
A woman at a party came up the Winston Churchill and derided him for being drunk. Mr. Churchill turned to the woman and proclaimed that he was in fact drunk but that in the morning he would be sober. He then challenged her that while his condition was temporary, she in the morning would still be ugly. I submit to you that those that struggle with written language have the ability to learn and increase their skill, but some of you will be elitist and arrogant in the morning!

It is also said that someone reminded Churchill (not Ward) of the rule that you are never supposed to end a sentence with a preposition. He supposedly said, "Madam, that is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put."

It's all about the audience and the context. If it is formal written text composed for a serious audience, use good diction, spelling and grammar. If you are playing around, then maybe you can relax a little. It is always a good idea to know the rules even if you don't follow them all the time. We don't wear tuxedos to go tailgating either but it is usually a good idea to own a tux for that formal event. Lighten up maybe?

 

[uctofeej]

‘Improper’ spoken and written language conventions will always be the elitist’s way to degrade those who by choice or circumstance did not have access to higher levels of learning.

It's never too late to pick up a book and learn on their own. Good communication skills sometimes come in handy. I mean, sheesh, bad punctuation is like wearing white shoes before Easter... just tacky.

 

[ndivita]

‘Improper’ spoken and written language conventions will always be the elitist’s way to degrade those who by choice or circumstance did not have access to higher levels of learning.

It's never too late to pick up a book and learn on their own. Good communication skills sometimes come in handy. I mean, sheesh, bad punctuation is like wearing white shoes before Easter... just tacky.

Interestingly, "The Elements of Style," the book that all grammar monkeys were taught in college to use as their guide, has run into some heavy shelling from a very credible source.

See this link

 

[Silver Penguin]

I have watched this thread with some interest from its inception and find I have to comment. I find the premise of the thread to be elitist and arrogant.

I appreciate that we're all entitled to our own opinion, and the sharing of these keeps the thread interesting. If we all thought exactly the same way, we'd have little to say to each other.

I disagree, most respectfully, about the premise of the thread being elitist and arrogant. If the critique was of a student, in the process of being educated, it certainly would not be fair to point out their inadequacies. We're talking about adults here, who have the option to further their education if they choose to. Granted, there are those who have learning disabilities and those to whom the doors of education are closed for whatever reason, but that leaves the rest of us.

My education was that of whole language. I honestly have no idea about the terms used to qualify grammar and punctuation. Through my own reading, I've learned what is right and what is not right. I chose to do that, because when I write something, I would like it to be taken seriously and be easily readable. If i chus to right if diffrunt it like gets tuff to reed so the person like find it hard to unnerstand wot i mean.

When the writer is capable of writing properly, and chooses not to, it implies a lack of respect for the reader.

Of course, this is JMHO and YMMV.

 

[Dr. Rich]

I have watched this thread with some interest from its inception and find I have to comment. I find the premise of the thread to be elitist and arrogant.

I appreciate that we're all entitled to our own opinion, and the sharing of these keeps the thread interesting. If we all thought exactly the same way, we'd have little to say to each other.

I disagree, most respectfully, about the premise of the thread being elitist and arrogant. If the critique was of a student, in the process of being educated, it certainly would not be fair to point out their inadequacies. We're talking about adults here, who have the option to further their education if they choose to. Granted, there are those who have learning disabilities and those to whom the doors of education are closed for whatever reason, but that leaves the rest of us.

My education was that of whole language. I honestly have no idea about the terms used to qualify grammar and punctuation. Through my own reading, I've learned what is right and what is not right. I chose to do that, because when I write something, I would like it to be taken seriously and be easily readable. If i chus to right if diffrunt it like gets tuff to reed so the person like find it hard to unnerstand wot i mean.

When the writer is capable of writing properly, and chooses not to, it implies a lack of respect for the reader.

Of course, this is JMHO and YMMV.

Jill I appreciate your response and I am going to respectfully reply......

My reason for writing is that there are many out there who lack the ability to communicate properly in the "Kings English".

I don't think we want to discourage or disparage anyone and inhibit them from contributing. If, as a matter of course, the person intentionally tries to disregard proper convention, then I say flog them. But for us to be judgmental because of a period or comma or twenty commas is absurd. I guarantee that there are many riders on this site who can out-ride me and who may lack diplomas or degrees...We need to be accepting and humble in the way we judge others..... Something about casting the first stone???? I stand by my assertion that to judge someone because of their written skills is elitist.

JMHO

 

[Silver Penguin]

If, as a matter of course, the person intentionally tries to disregard proper convention, then I say flog them.

Absolutely! We agree on this point completely. Now, we must ask how we can determine who is wilfully disregarding the rules (other than Mad Mike2) and who doesn't even KNOW that there are rules.

I do agree that no-one should be discouraged from participation due to a lack of ability. Heck, look at some of the idiots that we allow to share our roads with us when we ride. There is a definite lack of ability out there, but they have (or assume) drivers' licenses anyway.

 

[Bokerfork]

I also have read this with great interest and up until the point that Dr. Rich chimed in, I was solidly on the side of JB. Thank you Rich for enlightening me with your perspective. I, like JB, get very frustrated with some of the grammar, punctuation, and above all, spelling on the internet.

Given Rich's explanation I have a new appreciation and hopefully, additional tolerance for the butchering of the language. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. My writing for instance, while in my modest opinion is quite adequate, would probably be thoroughly mocked by a group of English professors.

Thanks again Dr. Rich.

 

[dsmack]

While Dr. Rich may feel the original comment is elitist, supported by the example of his daughter who achieved an advanced college degree, I would suggest an alternative: Education need not end when one leaves the hallowed halls of a learning institution... correct?

I would suggest that taking care to use reasonably common rules of spelling and punctuation is more a case of personal pride than level of education achieved. While many of us have not completed advanced levels of formal education, none of us as adults has been required to stop learning.

Turn off the damn TV and read a few well written books! It can make a remarkable difference in one's ability to place thoughts in front of an audience, either on paper or here on an internet screen.

I have personal friends from all walks of life. Some of them communicate better than others. If their thoughts are interesting and/or worthwhile, I'll make the effort to understand them, and it has nothing to do with their or my station in life.

Now, with all that said: "Can't we all just get along?"

Don

 

[madmike2]

If, as a matter of course, the person intentionally tries to disregard proper convention, then I say flog them.

Absolutely! We agree on this point completely. Now, we must ask how we can determine who is wilfully disregarding the rules (other than Mad Mike2) and who doesn't even KNOW that there are rules.

]b]I do agree that no-one should be discouraged from participation due to a lack of ability.[/b] Heck, look at some of the idiots that we allow to share our roads with us when we ride. There is a definite lack of ability out there, but they have (or assume) drivers' licenses anyway.

Well said, Jill! As a self educated boor I try to look beyond the simple spelling mistakes, misuse of words and punctuation errors to appreciate what the other members of this collective have to offer. There are some wise and grizzled human beings on this planet that neither can nor should be forced to live up to my (or by extension, others) expectations. Mine were directed toward The Princess.

I don't really care much for the breaks/brakes or further/farther conundrum and debate. We've all made spelling and punctuation mistakes and will continue to do so. For heaven's sakes, sometimes my fingers can't keep up with my thought process. Sometimes my typing has a mind of it's own rather than listening to my rather dim ideas. Uh corse, sum thymes et's jist kindly fun tuh steer up Mr. Toecudder. [SIZE=8pt]heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh[/SIZE]

 

[HYCLE]

I won't bother proof reading this, since I have so many willing to do the job for me.

As a multilingual illiterate, I take exception to statements about my stupidity.

Don't know where this came from, but I like it. "A wise man is one that realizes just how little he knows",or something like that.

I am working on becoming the wise man and not the educated one. If you can imagine.....

'Imagine there's no Heaven

It's easy if you try

No hell below us

Above us only sky

Imagine all the people

Living for today

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions

I wonder if you can

No need for greed or hunger

A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will live as one

 

[FJRGuy]

‘Improper’ spoken and written language conventions will always be the elitist’s way to degrade those who by choice or circumstance did not have access to higher levels of learning.

Well call me elitist if you will, but if you are 'smart' enough to use a computer, you should be 'smart' enough (or not too lazy) to use some form of punctuation/capitalization/etc... to make your posts readable. It doesn't take 'higher levels of learning" to know how to do that. :glare:

 

[Old Michael]

...We need to be accepting and humble in the way we judge others.....

That could be said more loudly Rich. Thank you.

Hans, I'm sure you didn't intend to come across as pompous or arrogant, but damn if it didn't read like that to me.

("Stupid?" Geez, that's a bit cruel. I probably misread the punctuation? )

Sure, many folks struggle with their writing, and certainly punctuation is critical in written communication.

But to suggest that someone who can't or won't punctuate his writing is stupid (or lazy), ...well, that's insulting.

Again, knowing you personally, I'm certain that wasn't your intent.

(And please don't fucking start on my punctuation. I've edited this crude post about 20 times now

.)

 

[Shakey]

Maybe there should be a forum area for, "Queens english" only posters.

The English language is in constant flux: from Chaucer through 'Willy-the-Shake',

Did somebody call?