Does punctuation matter?

[k7lvo]

I'm not looking for an english major. I'm looking for:

1. Writing that I can understand without having to decode it. 2-3 of the posts on this thread - you know who you are <_< - plus the one that started the referenced thread, were too much trouble for me to bother with. If y'all want me to read what you have to say, re-write them using some punctuation... <_<

2. I do have some pet peeves. Someone has already mentioned breaks and brakes. Then there is to, two, and too and there, they're and their -- but they're only petty annoyances.

If that makes me an elitist...

 

[madjackdog]

Wow, this is really a fun read. I love how people are so passionate about punctuation. I love the English language, and parsing sentences, and punctuation, but quite frankly, it's not for everyone, and I cheerily admit that I'm a bit of an oddball because of it. For what it's worth, I think I'm firmly on Dr. Rich's' side on this. I'm a little foggy on this, but I believe that in the scene from Saving Private Ryan, late in the movie, in his old age, while kneeling at the Captain Millers grave, Ryan turns to his wife and tearfully asks if he's lead a good life. The point being he doesn't ask her if he's made a lot of money, been successful in business, or if he's the hottest thing in grammar since The Oxford Guide to Punctuation, he's asking her, essentially, if he has been a good person, and worth the Captains sacrifice. I know lots of people who can't differentiate a comma from their ***, but are still valuable members of society. Mastery of English is a skill set, and a valuable one, but I'm not sure that it speaks to anything but, firstly, opportunity, both socially and financially. Everyone has to make their own choices about other people, but maybe those choices should be made on nothing else other than is he/she a good person. Life is too short and too arduous for anything else. To boldly declare that this or that particular person is unworthy of being your friend, or to think less of him/her because of their mastery of English is, to me, missing the point.

Pop Quiz -- Who can find the split infinitive? Who cares?

 

[HYCLE]

I cheerily admit that I'm a bit of an oddball because of it. Pop Quiz -- Who can find the split infinitive? Who cares?

Did I quickly find it? Or was it this? "To boldly declare that this or that "

Do I get a gold star? I really don't know what a split infinitive is, so I looked it up at Wikipedia. I think it's the second choice where the adverb follows the word, To.

From Wiki:

A split infinitive or cleft infinitive is an English-language grammatical construction in which a word or phrase, usually an adverb or other adverbial, comes between the marker to and the bare infinitive (uninflected) form of a verb. A famous split infinitive occurs in the opening sequence of the Star Trek television series: to boldly go where no man has gone before.

 

[madjackdog]

You are the winner! The prize is that I resolve to think fondly of you whenever I see your name. "Oh look, HYCLE, he took the time to find out what a split infinitive was", Alan thought fondly. "He is a man among men." Do let me say that when I say fondly, I mean it in the most manly of ways, not in the Lifetime channel sissified way.

 

[Mooseonagoose]

An English professor wrote the words:
"A woman without her man is nothing"

on the chalkboard and asked his students to punctuate it correctly.

All of the males in the class wrote:

"A woman, without her man, is nothing."

All the females in the class wrote:

"A woman: without her, man is nothing."

I think the point of this thread, both as initially intended & in general, is more about clear communication than about expertise in gramatical technicalities. Ionbeam's post

makes that point as well as any in this thread, & with a bit of humor. The first line in the quote, without as much as a period, isn't even really a sentence and is essentailly devoid of meaning. The second & third lines aptly illustrate how a given sequence of words can, through punctuation, relate [or not] the writer's intent. I haven't noticed any [serious] finger pointing or intent to offend, as well there shouldn't be. Whether in conversation or in written dailogue, responsibility for effectively communicating lies with the party wanting to make his/her point, ...not with the listener/reader.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

Oh ******* PLEASE.

O.K. So OM is firmly in Dr. Rich's anarchic camp. Super.

....and I'm in the middle again. I've got one post in this thread kidding with the grammar police about how they keep me on my toes. I've got another post that was meant to convey that we should all at least try to improve. I cringe when I read about educators lowering the bar.

When will I learn? There is no middle road. One is either Right or Left; fat or fit; elitist or inclusive...

 

[Fred W]

Wow, this is really a fun read. I love how people are so passionate about punctuation. I love the English language, and parsing sentences, and punctuation, but quite frankly, it's not for everyone, and I cheerily admit that I'm a bit of an oddball because of it. For what it's worth, I think I'm firmly on Dr. Rich's' side on this. I'm a little foggy on this, but I believe that in the scene from Saving Private Ryan, late in the movie, in his old age, while kneeling at the Captain Millers grave, Ryan turns to his wife and tearfully asks if he's lead a good life. The point being he doesn't ask her if he's made a lot of money, been successful in business, or if he's the hottest thing in grammar since The Oxford Guide to Punctuation, he's asking her, essentially, if he has been a good person, and worth the Captains sacrifice. I know lots of people who can't differentiate a comma from their ***, but are still valuable members of society. Mastery of English is a skill set, and a valuable one, but I'm not sure that it speaks to anything but, firstly, opportunity, both socially and financially. Everyone has to make their own choices about other people, but maybe those choices should be made on nothing else other than is he/she a good person. Life is too short and too arduous for anything else. To boldly declare that this or that particular person is unworthy of being your friend, or to think less of him/her because of their mastery of English is, to me, missing the point.

For someone so in love with punctuation, you sure don't like to use periods much (run-on sentences).

Actually, I quoted your entire "paragraph" (and I use that term loosely) because it illustrates your own point, albeit unintentionally. Although not perfectly crafted from a punctuation standpoint, I can understand it well enough, and you make your case perfectly.

Another thing for some of the more conservative grammarians to consider is that all language is in constant flux. What is right and wrong from a grammar standpoint is only that way for today. As conversational language morphs, so too does the written language. Is this bad? I don't know. But I do know that in every generation there will be some who will complain that everything is going to hell.

 

[kolonial72]

I, like! turtles:

Seriously, though, the only problem I have with the OP's example is that it takes my wee brain too long to cipher the text. I do not hate someone who types such a sentence. I do not want to read the sentence, but I do not hate the writer.

Isn't in funny how some people get all torqued up about this sort of thing?

 

[Silver Penguin]

Seriously, though, the only problem I have with the OP's example is that it takes my wee brain too long to cipher the text. I do not hate someone who types such a sentence. I do not want to read the sentence, but I do not hate the writer.

Well said Kolonial. You made the point that I was humbly trying to get across. When I see something that is extremely badly written, I choose not to put the effort into translating it into something readable. I don't judge, or hate the writer. I simply choose to move onto something more entertaining to read. On occasion, I will select a post to read, based on the name of the writer, because I have enjoyed reading other things written by them in the past. In Old Michael's case, I like looking at the pictures.

Most posts, including my own, will have several grammatical errors that a pro could identify, but the readability is only marginally decreased. A while back, I received a PM from a fellow forum member, with some grammatical correction. I took it in the spirit in which it was intended, and hopefully have not made that same mistake again.

In answer to the question about censoring language in a spoken conversation, I think we all do it to a point. If you're out with your wife and kids, and meet someone (who may or may not be on this forum) whose conversation is peppered with frequent blasphemous vulgarities, will you move on and speak with someone else instead? How about the stereotypical Valley girl who alternates every syllable with 'like'? How long will her shallow, empty conversation keep your attention?

It would appear that the moral of this five page diatribe is that the weather isn't good enough to ride much yet!

 

[user 6393]

How about the stereotypical Valley girl who alternates every syllable with 'like'? How long will her shallow, empty conversation keep your attention?

In the case of male forum members, I imagine that would have a lot to do with how big her tata's are.

It would appear that the moral of this five page diatribe is that the weather isn't good enough to ride much yet!

.....exactly

 

[madmike2]

How about the stereotypical Valley girl who alternates every syllable with 'like'? How long will her shallow, empty conversation keep your attention?

In the case of male forum members, I imagine that would have a lot to do with how big her tata's are.

Or, like, how deep the color of her eyes and do they, like, "smile", perhaps, like, how long and shapely are her legs? :blink:

[SIZE=8pt]Sheesh....we're much more complex than the credit you don't give us.[/SIZE]

 

[Toecutter]

I'm not looking for an english major. I'm looking for:1. Writing that I can understand without having to decode it.

If that makes me an elitist...

What he said!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Me to teenage daughter trying to fill out junior college papers: "You have to make a good impression, and this randomization of letters, marks, and numbers does no such thing. They need moderately educated students to fill college classrooms, and this shows nothing about an education."
Teenage daughter: "They can tell what I mean, so like, what difference does it make if it's your opinion of 'correct?' All my friends like, helped me with this anyway so I know it's good!"

Me: {facepalm}

QUOTE (uctofeej @ May 4 2009, 05:10 AM) Formal education is no way to learn. It's full of efforts to establish authoritative knowledge, which is then poured into passive minds who sit at desks like leaky sponges. ...

QUOTE (JR'SFJR @ May 4 2009, 02:43 PM) Maybe we should close the forum to just English professors?? ...

To quote my friend, Hugh:

"I've taught High School English for 22 years -- and you can't tell me ****..!!"

 

[Mooseonagoose]

Like ya know ya forgot ya know ya know w'um sayin

 

[madmike2]

Like ya know ya forgot ya know ya know w'um sayin

Well, uhm, y'know, like I gave it, uhm, y'know, 110%.

And, uhm, y'know it was a, y'know, uhm, a team effort.

 

[worldbound4now]

.

 

[rogdeb]

A very entertaining AND educational thread :lol:

Having read all replies I tend to agree AND disagree with everyone.

This posting is intentionally short to lessen the chance of any grammatical "****-up"

 

[RadioHowie]

A very entertaining AND educational thread :lol:
Having read all replies I tend to agree AND disagree with everyone.

This posting is intentionally short to lessen the chance of any grammatical "****-up"

Well, ya strayed two words too long. ****** doesn't need to be hyphenated. :rofl:

In all sincerity, I apologize for dragging this POS up from the dead. Hell, it's still kind of warm and worm free.

But to chime in with my thoughts on "Spelling and Grammar Nazis" (as if anyone gives a **** what my thoughts are) it all comes down to context.

If I see examples of kindergarten level spelling and grammar attached to some YouTube post, I simply consider the source.

But in technocentric environments such as motorcycle forums, then, at least to me, correct grammar, spelling and punctuation is necessary, at least from reply posters, if not just as important for topic posters.

Let me explain my reasoning:

If someone responds to a technically challenging question with a reply full of grammar, spelling or syntax errors, I tend to question the validity of that response as well as the technical acumen of the responder. It comes down to credibility. How can I "trust' a technical response from someone who can't correctly string together a few words into a cognitive sentence?

It even comes down to spelling. How can I be comfortable accepting advice on the best way to bleed the ABS system on my '04 when a responder to my post replies with something along the lines of "be sure to bleed your rear breaks before you due the fronts." Do I think "God, this ***** can't even spell brakes or use the word do effectively?" No. I think "If this person can't even spell the word brakes correctly or use do instead of due, maybe he doesn't know WTF he's talking about." By the same token, that same type of response elicits thoughts of "Christ, if he can't even take the few moments of time to proofread his response, maybe he takes similar shortcuts with his maintenance chores." Either way, I tend to be dismissive of these types of posts when it comes to technical issues.

Similarly, if I see a query post in a technical forum from someone who writes with, how to say it kindly, less than skill, again I don't react with thoughts of how stupid the poster is, but instead wonder if that person who's typing in all caps, poor grammar, bad punctuation, etc., can benefit from the advice given in said forum. Again, if that person can't be bothered to pre-read his post before hitting "Send" how can I believe he can bother reading all the steps necessary to successfully complete, say, a Throttle Body Sync.

As I noted, it's all a matter of context. I don't expect a typical 14 year old YouTuber to communicate with the skills of an astrophysicist, but I do expect someone giving me, or asking of me, advice on how to keep a 145hp motorcycle from killing him or me the credibilty to accept such questions or dispense such advice with a modicum of credibility.

If I come across sounding like an elitist, then label me as one. I'd rather be an elitist than an apologist.

 

[dcarver]

A very entertaining AND educational thread :lol:
Having read all replies I tend to agree AND disagree with everyone.

This posting is intentionally short to lessen the chance of any grammatical "****-up"

Well, ya strayed two words too long. ****** doesn't need to be hyphenated. :rofl:

In all sincerity, I apologize for dragging this POS up from the dead. Hell, it's still kind of warm and worm free.

But to chime in with my thoughts on "Spelling and Grammar Nazis" (as if anyone gives a **** what my thoughts are) it all comes down to context.

If I see examples of kindergarten level spelling and grammar attached to some YouTube post, I simply consider the source.

But in technocentric environments such as motorcycle forums, then, at least to me, correct grammar, spelling and punctuation is necessary, at least from reply posters, if not just as important for topic posters.

Let me explain my reasoning:

If someone responds to a technically challenging question with a reply full of grammar, spelling or syntax errors, I tend to question the validity of that response as well as the technical acumen of the responder. It comes down to credibility. How can I "trust' a technical response from someone who can't correctly string together a few words into a cognitive sentence?

It even comes down to spelling. How can I be comfortable accepting advice on the best way to bleed the ABS system on my '04 when a responder to my post replies with something along the lines of "be sure to bleed your rear breaks before you due the fronts." Do I think "God, this ***** can't even spell brakes or use the word do effectively?" No. I think "If this person can't even spell the word brakes correctly or use do instead of due, maybe he doesn't know WTF he's talking about." By the same token, that same type of response elicits thoughts of "Christ, if he can't even take the few moments of time to proofread his response, maybe he takes similar shortcuts with his maintenance chores." Either way, I tend to be dismissive of these types of posts when it comes to technical issues.

Similarly, if I see a query post in a technical forum from someone who writes with, how to say it kindly, less than skill, again I don't react with thoughts of how stupid the poster is, but instead wonder if that person who's typing in all caps, poor grammar, bad punctuation, etc., can benefit from the advice given in said forum. Again, if that person can't be bothered to pre-read his post before hitting "Send" how can I believe he can bother reading all the steps necessary to successfully complete, say, a Throttle Body Sync.

As I noted, it's all a matter of context. I don't expect a typical 14 year old YouTuber to communicate with the skills of an astrophysicist, but I do expect someone giving me, or asking of me, advice on how to keep a 145hp motorcycle from killing him or me the credibilty to accept such questions or dispense such advice with a modicum of credibility.

If I come across sounding like an elitist, then label me as one. I'd rather be an elitist than an apologist.

[ducking4cover]Yew shood ruplahs cam chian tenziners wen deh furst makes noize, odder wize dey cen blews up on yue. :rofl: There Howie! [/ducking4cover]

 

[RadioHowie]

[ducking4cover]Yew shood ruplahs cam chian tenziners wen deh furst makes noize, odder wize dey cen blews up on yue. :rofl: There Howie! [/ducking4cover]

You are SO gonna get it!

I'm gonna be down the road from you in Concord for a high school football play-by-play gig in early September, and I just bet I can find the Hondarosa! (I'll bribe beemerdons with beer)

Duckin' fer cuvver ain't gonna save yer old, sorry A$$!!!!!

:assassin: :evilsmiley: :axesmiley: :***: :mace: :nhl_fight: :ranting2: :rip_1:

'n gawdammit, when I'm finished with you, I'm headin' to Owosso to rid the planet of Bustanut!! (I'll be a hero)

He's the one who sent me to this forum to help defend him from Ionbeam's post HERE.

Defend HIM!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.................

If it hadn't been for Bustagoat, I wouldn't have come to this dark, dank, moldy backroom of the forum in the first place and set myself up for Don's riposte.

You're next, Joker!!

[SIZE=18pt]I'll Get You My Pretty (And Your Little Dog Too)[/SIZE]