Engine switch

[philellis123]

TomInPA,

Oh, I will definitely be having a few words with the shop. Between towing and diagnostic charges I am into this for close to $500. It would seem to me that supposedly "certified" Yamaha mechanics should have been able to do a better diagnosis. Thanks again to everyone on this forum, literally saved my bike

 

[eflyguy]

.. and this is why so many consider "shops" to be dishonest. I would not own motorcycles if I was dependant on someone else to maintain or repair them, but I also know of several people making a truly honest living doing right by customers, that I would not hesitate to trust with my machines (and money)..

Unless you knew about this problem (hive mind knowledgebase here), I honestly don't think you could hope to diagnose it differently. Hindsight is 20/20, and all that.

 

[Fred W]

In this case at least, it isnt a matter of dishonesty, more like ineptitude. Surely there are lots of highly capable mechanics in the business. But that doesnt mean that they all are.

Way back in the beginning, the OP mentioned the shop told him that they did a wet compression check. The wet check means you squirt a little oil into the combustion chamber, which would have sealed the rings and should have given normal compression readings in this case. So, either they didnt actually do a wet compression check, or they somehow did it wrong, or possibly the engine still has low compression unrelated to the previous no start condition.

I would be doing my own compression and / or leakdown check on that engine now that it is running again for future reference.

 

[RossKean]

It is still quite possible that the engine's compression is low but that isn't the root cause for failure to start.

The test was done cold but I have no idea whether (or how much) that would adversely affect a wet compression test.

My situation:

I don't know whether I would personally go for a re-test, even by someone I knew would do a good job. I would ask myself what I would do if compression was a bit below spec and the answer would be "Nothing!". My bike still runs well, despite the high mileage, and I don't feel like power is particularly lacking. (I realize that any loss in power is likely to be so gradual that I might never notice unless I did a side-by-side comparison with another bike.) My bike does not burn a drop of oil, either. Even if there is some compression loss, the bike is still rideable and I would have no intention of spending many hundreds of dollars to restore a(n almost) 200,000 mile engine.

The only reason I would consider the diagnostic test(s) would be to get a feeling for how long I might expect it to last and whether I would consider taking it on a long trip somewhere (i.e. Alaska!). Perhaps results might make me keep an eye open for a good used engine that could be bought when I wanted to rather than when I HAD to.

I expect that the OP is in a similar position. Bike is now working and probably will continue to function acceptably for some time. Unless he intends to actually DO something about reduced compression, he might as well save the money and enjoy the ride.

 

[philellis123]

RossKean,

You are spot on, I'm not going to worry about it, I'm just going to ride it

Thanks again.

 

[Fred W]

A compression gauge is cheap, and they are not very hard to use. Leakdown is a bit more involved. I’d want to check it myself now after the shop reported low readings, and I’d do a dry and wet comparison so I knew if the rings are getting gummed up (low dry, good wet) or if the valves are getting carboned up (low wet). Either way you could run some solvent through the engine (ring free or Techron) and see if you can get an improvement. The advantage of doing it now is, if sometime in the future the bike does start running poorly, when you check the compression then you’ll have a known quantity benchmark. But I’ll agree that if you have to pay someone to do the tests it wouldn’t be worth it.

 

[RzrBak]

Chiming in late here but thought it would be FWIW. Last October I finally took my '05 to a local shop for diagnosis. I had been trying for months to rectify a stalling issue when I came to a stop sign or traffic light. If I kept a little throttle in it, no stall. TBS was done, checked and rechecked, idle speed was at correct level (around 1100 rpm). Nothing ever seemed to remedy the issue. Initially, local shop told me both coils were bad. My question to them was "did you run a compression test". Answer they gave...resounding "yes".

After coils were replaced at about $1,000, bike still stalled. Back to the shop it went. Another 2-3 weeks of them trying to figure it out without any results, I contacted the shop's owner. By the time she got to the bottom of it, the mechanic was fired because he didn't check the compression as was stated. Senior mechanic then performed compression and leak down tests...found that #3 cylinder was around 130 psi and #4 was around 145 psi. Shop contact Yamaha Tech line for assistance and was told to pull the headers and look inside. Apparently, they found cracks in the valve stems, head etc. The repair order was nearly $10,500.

Once I quit laughing from rage, I told them there was no way in hell I was going to spend that much. That's when I went the ebay used engine route and decided to do the job myself (with much trepidation). I bought an engine from an insurance/salvage shop for $599 shipped. I started the "tear down" in January and finally finished at the end of February. Just began riding it again to work this week and after 418 miles, all's go so far.

Can't figure out how to get my pics to post from my photobucket...otherwise I'd share.

 

[philellis123]

Rzrbak,

Wow! You have WAY more confidence in your mechanical skills than I have in mine. Congrats on being able to do an engine swap on your own. I am just thrilled that it did not end up being necessary for me

 

[Fred W]

I dunno, I wouldnt think such a minor loss of compression would be all that noticeable. Also, I really doubt the valve stems were cracked. Valve guides, maybe, which wouldnt contribute to a compression loss. Cracked head would. Swapping the head shouldnt have cost $10,500.

I seem to recall a few folks that had CCT failures that resulted in bent valves and dented heads, who replaced the heads at far less cost than that. Glad you got it sorted out, but still a bit suspicious of your dealerships service capabilities.

 

[eflyguy]

Ditto.. did you examine the old head yourself?

 

[RzrBak]

philellis123,

For the astronomical amount that shops charge on labor, I decided when I bought the bike in 2014 that I'd perform all maintenance myself. That was a pretty bold thought at the time because I really had no FJR mechanical knowledge or idea of how involved things could get. I mean, oil changes lubrication maintenance etc. was fairly straight forward things, much like my car and truck.

With the help of forums (like this), You Tube and being able to read a service manual, I found myself delving further into areas such as TBS syncs, stator swaps, brake changes/maintenance. The one area I've been reluctant to tackle myself is when it comes to the internals of the engine. I've read up on valve check/adjustments but don't really have all the proper tools to pull it off and haven't invested in them. A couple years ago at my local tech day, RaYzerman19 and others worked on that for me. Glad they did 'cause an issue with #3 wasn't allowing them to get a feeler gauge in it and had I been doing it on my own...it wouldn't have ended well.

By the time this issue came up, I felt like I had enough experience taking the bike apart that I'd do the job. The unknown was how long it would take. With work and family/life stuff going on, it took a lot longer than I'd anticipated. I just kept at it, doing each section as mini-projects within the whole project. Once she fired up...that's when my confidence was elevated and was like

!

 

[RzrBak]

I dunno, I wouldnt think such a minor loss of compression would be all that noticeable. Also, I really doubt the valve stems were cracked. Valve guides, maybe, which wouldnt contribute to a compression loss. Cracked head would. Swapping the head shouldnt have cost $10,500.
I seem to recall a few folks that had CCT failures that resulted in bent valves and dented heads, who replaced the heads at far less cost than that. Glad you got it sorted out, but still a bit suspicious of your dealerships service capabilities.

Yeah Fred, you're right. I probably didn't state it quite like the conversation went with the shop. There were so many things they said needed to be changed, then threw that estimate at me and I got lost in it all and only was thinking...."how am I gonna pay for this, I don't have another bike so how am I gonna get to work..." It probably would have looked like a Charlie Brown scene where his teacher is talking but you can't understand a dang word being said.

As far as the shop's capabilities, I still am lacking confidence in them or at least the mechanics they hire. The first guy (who was eventually fired) left bolts out of my dash and didn't completely tighten the ones on the lower fairing. He also didn't tuck all my wires back like I'd had them, finger prints on everything...maybe I'm being too picky but...

 

[RzrBak]

Ditto.. did you examine the old head yourself?

Nope, didn't examine it but I have my old motor sitting in the garage. I think I'm gonna play around with it and maybe get some experience with the internals. Heck, I can't hurt anything and it's not like it's needed at the moment.

I went back and found the second email from the shop. They had revised the RO estimate for cylinder head replacement at the total cost of $7,538.73. The good thing is that I have all of the parts list if I want to take that on...hahaha!