ES suspension - 'splain me

[mcatrophy]

You are correct that two cylinders on the front are devoted to the rear brake pedal, that's two out of eight cylinders, one for each pad, so the two drive one pair of pads out of the four pairs, but then only after a pressure threshold has been reached.

As for the front lever linking to the rear brake, definitely and absolutely not.

Don't know why you are so upset about the linking, as far as I am aware, no-one on this forum complains about their brakes. I can only assume you have some deep-seated prejudice against them. Live with them for a while, see if you ever come across a situation where the linking actually cause you a problem.

 

[mech 1 twa]

125 That part under 81 is rough but its straight for 1 mile at least. I don't ride that part. Turn after Pine Grove Left at Ravine. Go under 81 to the top. Cross 209 and that brings you to the end of rough section. Its much better.

Road conditions change with the weather. Big hills stuff washes down.

Try Rt 325 yet not far from there. 209 Tower City. Not a twisty road but you can fun some fun. Tree tunnel for 15 miles. Takes you to Susq. river.

 

[RBEmerson]

First, I was just about to say I just completed reading page 1-11 of the shop manual. Regarding the front brake lever, indeed only the front brake cylinders are activated. As one and all have said, the brake pedal activates one set of front brake cylinders as well as the rear brakes. Regarding the above, I admit to doing a rectal examination with my head.

I am, however, perplexed by the insistence of adding any amount of front braking with the full rear brakes in use.

- - - - -

A quick definition of center of gravity (CG), toss a bike in the air and let it spin, it will always spin around the CG. A cheaper example is to cut an outline, in stiff cardboard from the latest Twisted Throttle shipment, that looks sort of like a bike. spin it in the air and it, too, will spin around its CG. Or if you have a lot of patience and a really sharp pencil the cutout, the cutout balances at its CG.

One more thing and then onward. Assume the rider is siting directly over the CG. Draw a line from the CG to the Earth's CG (really - no joke). Put the bike on a truly level surface and the rider centered on the CG (which happens to rises according to the rider's weight or drops when standing on the pegs) and that line meets the surface at right angles.

Enough about terms and definitions.

Ride up a hill and the line from the CG to the earth's CG moves back, towards the rear wheel. Add a trunk or rear pack full of lead, and it's not that hard to have a non-stop wheelie. When the line from the CG moves to or after back wheel, life becomes very unhappy. Being reasonable, move the CG line back about 6", and the load on the front wheel has lightened slightly. Hit the front brake hard, and there's slightly less braking than on a level road until the CG moves forward. Hit the rear brakes, which have slightly more loading, because they're closer to the CG line, and the CG line moves forward, the front brakes now carry more load and become more effective.

Going down a steep grade, the CG line is closer to the front brake. They've got more load and become more effective. But that's not really a good thing. At the same time, there's less load on the back wheel. Who cares, the front brakes are designed to do more braking. Unloading the rear wheel brings it closer to losing traction. Hit the front brake hard in a turn on a steep descent, bang over a bump, what little traction the rear wheel has can let go and "a body motion remains in motion unless acted upon by an external force" (Newton's first law). In other words, the back end will try to move in the direction it was moving in when the tire lost traction (the front of the bike will drag the back end along - the external force - so the swing won't be as much as were the back end to continue on its own - very broken bike, now two unicycles). The CG moves outwards and bike control becomes ...um... interesting.

Go for the rear brake first and the CG will move back, off the front wheel. Add light front brake after going for the rear brake, keep the brakes balanced, the CG line stays more or less in the middle of the bike and control is easier. The frame's settled and doesn't dip or lift (centered CG line).

And that is why I really, really, really dislike linked brakes. Easy-peasy, eh?

The FJR has them and they're not going away, so I'll learn to cope.

 

[RBEmerson]

125 That part under 81 is rough but its straight for 1 mile at least. I don't ride that part. Turn after Pine Grove Left at Ravine. Go under 81 to the top. Cross 209 and that brings you to the end of rough section. Its much better.
Road conditions change with the weather. Big hills stuff washes down.

Try Rt 325 yet not far from there. 209 Tower City. Not a twisty road but you can fun some fun. Tree tunnel for 15 miles. Takes you to Susq. river.

Thanks! I'll try both of those soon.

 

[Harald]

I am, however, perplexed by the insistence of adding any amount of front braking with the full rear brakes in use.

I'm not the Yamaha Braking engineer, but I suspect this feature was added to protect the lowest common denominator from hurting themselves. There are actually riders out there that are scared of the front brake because of the old wives tale that "it'll toss you over the handlebars." By linking the brakes, at least they'll still have some front braking when they stand on the rear brake in an attempt to avoid hitting that obstacle ahead of them.

BTW, these riders are the same that say they "had to lay it down" to avoid hitting something rather than admit they don't know how to properly brake and not lock up the rear tire. Thanks to ABS they don't have to use that excuse anymore.

 

[mech 1 twa]

ooops

 

[RBEmerson]

I am, however, perplexed by the insistence of adding any amount of front braking with the full rear brakes in use.

I'm not the Yamaha Braking engineer, but I suspect this feature was added to protect the lowest common denominator from hurting themselves. There are actually riders out there that are scared of the front brake because of the old wives tale that "it'll toss you over the handlebars." By linking the brakes, at least they'll still have some front braking when they stand on the rear brake in an attempt to avoid hitting that obstacle ahead of them.

BTW, these riders are the same that say they "had to lay it down" to avoid hitting something rather than admit they don't know how to properly brake and not lock up the rear tire. Thanks to ABS they don't have to use that excuse anymore.

Agreed on all of the above. I went out on a borrowed bicycle to accompany some kids. The bike looked pretty, disk brake and everything else to make the bike heavy. The oldest of the group was studying physics and was to section levers related stuff. "It'll flip you over the handlebars". Clearly was going to be big on theory, not so good on practical application.

 

[bruinFJRguy]

So is the correct take away that a gen3 A can be more precisely tuned than the gen3 ES?

I've thought about upgrading, but optimal handling in the twisties is my real goal, as much as it would be nice to adjust on the fly.

 

[RBEmerson]

The only "on the fly" is the throttle mode : tour to sport and sport to tour. Let the throttle go back to zero, push the tab left, let go, and grab the throttle. With a bit of practice the change can be made without obvious slowing. But shifting from single rider to , for example, single rider with luggage requires motor running, but bike not moving. I guess you could change mode while waiting at a light or taking your time at a stop sign. But coming to the end of boringly straight to woohoo!! Nah.

 

[RBEmerson]

The more comments about the FJR (A&ES) suspension, the more I think the front end was left alone too much. Even the back end needs some help. FWIW, my late BMW K1200RS has Ölins in the front and back. (In the front, there's more than just forks, there's lever machinery, which uses a shock) Fortunately, the PO installed the set of Ölins. I've ridden both with and without Ölins. Of course they make a difference. It's even better when someone else paid for them.

Using the thinking from the thread relating to the evils of linked brakes: Andy Average doesn't have to think about balanced brake or using the wrongs brakes at the wrong time. The suspension will also make life easier for Andy, too. He doesn't have to really think about setting up the suspension properly. And heaven forfend should needs be to comprehend the front end. Andy, this one's for you! oloo

 

[BigOgre]

I've thought about upgrading, but optimal handling in the twisties is my real goal, as much as it would be nice to adjust on the fly.

The only "on the fly" is the throttle mode : tour to sport and sport to tour. . . . But shifting from single rider to , for example, single rider with luggage requires motor running, but bike not moving. I guess you could change mode while waiting at a light or taking your time at a stop sign. But coming to the end of boringly straight to woohoo!! Nah.

Just to clarify for any Andys reading this in the future, RBE is correct in that one can't change the preload settings (single rider, two-up, with or without bags) nor the operator presets (I think) for the on-the-fly dampening adjustments while the bike is in motion. However similar to the throttle modes, the rider can adjust his/her dampening (Soft, Standard or Hard with the presets -3 to +3 for each) while at any speed. Having to sometimes experience a couple hours of interstate and traffic before finding my happy riding ground, and also learning what New England frost-heaves can do to some fine roadways, I bought the ES with all that in mind. So far I've been enjoying my decision. (Not enough mind you, but enjoying it none the less.)

 

[MCRIDER007]

The only "on the fly" is the throttle mode : tour to sport and sport to tour.

I think you are forgetting the damping adjustments. You can change between your preset damping settings for Soft, STD, and Hard on the fly.
Opps....didnt see the above post before I posted....

 

[Fred W]

Why would anyone think that an ES would need a front fork preload adjustment when you have a rear preload adjustment? That tells me that you probably do not understand what a preload adjustment does. All that any preload adjustment does is to change the loaded ride height. It does not make the shock any stiffer. To make it stiffer you either have to change the spring rate or add compression damping.

The reason you want to adjust the rear ride height is to compensate for added load which is causing the rear to sag more. When you add luggage or passenger weight almost all of that weight is supported by the rear shock, so the rear end sags and slows the steering response. Adjusting the rear ride height back up with the preload will re-establish the correct attitude and steering geometry. As was said a few posts earlier, you can steepen the steering angles and quicken the steering by adding rear preload with no added cargo.

Note: the Hard/Soft lever on an A model is not a preload adjustment. It ingeniously changes the rear shock spring rate by mechanically locking out the shorter stage 1 spring. The rear ride height will, coincidentally, be higher in the hard position due to the stiffer spring rate supporting the bike and load. The downfall with that whole scheme is that there is no change in compression and rebound damping when the lever is flipped, which really needs to be changed when you change spring rate.

Anyone who thinks that the roads of PA are rough has clearly not spent very much time riding in New England or eastern Canada where smooth roads are an anomaly. With nearly 35k NE miles on my 2014ES I can say unequivocally that the ES suspension does a great job on rough roadways for me.

As far as the linked braking, as has been established, the linking is unidirectional, front brake force added only when using the rear pedal, not vice versa. But there are also two valves that control the hydraulic linking. There is one valve that restricts the linking to the front until a certain pressure threshold has been exceeded. This allows one to trail brake with just the rear brake if you want to, or to manually apply front and rear brakes as you see fit. It is really only when you stomp on the rear pedal that the threshold is exceeded and brake pressure goes to the front.

There is a second metering valve that adjusts the amount of pressure from the rear master cylinder that will go to the front after that threshold has been exceeded, and there are three ABS circuits (front, rear, and linked) so that the linked front brake will not cause a wheel lock-up.

This whole discussion reminds me of the fairy tale, the Princess and the Pea. Of course YMMV

 

[RBEmerson]

The only "on the fly" is the throttle mode : tour to sport and sport to tour.

I think you are forgetting the damping adjustments. You can change between your preset damping settings for Soft, STD, and Hard on the fly.
Opps....didnt see the above post before I posted....

[/ scratching head ] Maybe I missed something in the OM, but I think that changing from two up with bags to solo while rolling isn't possible.

While I am perfect, I did think I made a mistake once. Turns out I didn't. LOL

 

[RBEmerson]

I can quickly get in over my head about setting up any suspension correctly. NTL it's my opinion (humble or not) that tweaking the suspension in the back effectively makes changes up front. The point I'm trying to make is any vehicle's suspension should be viewed as one system with two major components. In that setting, changing one part will have an effect on the other part. Having adjustments in one part, which are not reflected in the other part, strikes as less than the best way to address a vehicle's suspension adjustment.

PS My roads are worse than anyone's roads. And I can p*** further than anyone else, too. Let the contest begin! [/ big wink ]

 

[Fred W]

Within your selected preload, you can change from Soft to STD to Hard on the fly. It will use the -3 to +3 values that you had previously selected for those. I posted a chart of the various damping settings on here somewhere. Not sure if it still displays after the Photobucket screw job. There is quite a bit of overlap in the various selections.

There is always a certain amount of crossed purposes when adjusting suspensions. For instance, if you do increase spring rate, you would want to increase the rebound damping, but decrease the compression damping. The vast majority of motorcycle riders are clueless as to what they should be accomplishing when adjusting. Automating the adjustments makes the suspension work better for that majority.

Its a lot like the argument against ABS, that a highly skilled rider can stop faster under optimum conditions. Unfortunately we have a real lack of highly skilled riders and optimum conditions.

 

[RBEmerson]

What's the meaning of "on the fly" here? I take it to mean "while moving". Is shifting from, say, hard to soft within, for example, one-up, possible while moving?

 

[Fred W]

Yes. Don’t you own the bike? Try it! You’ll like it!

 

[bruinFJRguy]

What's the meaning of "on the fly" here? I take it to mean "while moving". Is shifting from, say, hard to soft within, for example, one-up, possible while moving?

Yeah, by "on the fly" I meant slowing down rebound or opening up compression, for example, while riding without having to pull over and bust out the screw driver or get off the bike.

I actually adjust my front rebound on the fly, but I can't reach the bottom of my fork and shock without stopping and getting off the bike.

 

[bruinFJRguy]

While we're on the topic of ES, can anyone chime in as to the reliability of the components? Would you be comfortable buying a used ES without an existing warranty?

I bought an A for a few reasons: easier to upgrade, cheaper to buy, cheaper to fix. But there are a couple used ES FJRs and Teneres that have caught my eye...