FJR AE Info

[gRed04]

I am interested in the AE as well.

Not so much for the electronic clutch but because I like the silver better than the blue ( no offense to yammy blue ).

One positive about the AE is the clutch disengages automatically at stop and engages automatically with a little throttle.

I like this as I do alot of riding in city traffic and it would be nice to not have sit at red lights holding the clutch in so I can get away if some yahoo decides not to stop.

Can't wait to hear some first hand riding reports.

 

[Pacman]

You can't rock the bike back and forth to get it out of gear if the battery is dead as the shifting is done electrically. This is a simple work around as one simply needs to put a polarized plug on the battery terminals when it is assembled the put the mate to the plug in the tool kit for such an emergency that you can either charge the battery or apply 12 volts so the bike can be shifted into neutral.
Tony

Not true. Perhaps with the ignition ON and the bike OFF, that MAY be the case. With the key off the ignition, all electrics are off, and so the gear box is just like any other one

 

[Randy]

The clutch requires battery power to disengage, so if you leave the bike in gear and leave an electric vest turned on and run the battery dead the bike is NOT MOVEABLE until battery power is restored!

Thanks for posting this info (not that I'm interested in one, but, it's good to hear the realities of how things will work). I think I'm having a problem with symantics. Do you mean it requires battery power to engage (similar to pulling the clutch in) or disengage (similar to letting the clutch out). If you mean disengage, the bike would be movable, but, you couldn't bump start it. If you mean engage, then couldn't shift the bike into neutral by rocking it back and forth to get the gears to disengage? I just tried it with mine with the bike off and not pulling in the clutch. On the center stand, I can pull the shift lever up until it goes into gear, and can continue to do this until I get to 5th. I then did the same thing to get it back to 1st then back up to neutral. So, the bike can be moveable. What would be challenging is bump starting it. Assuming you can get enough speed, there would probably be too much compression to keep the back tire from locking up.

As stated a gazzilion times before, mostly speculation and theory until the real world gets their hands on one.

You can't rock the bike back and forth to get it out of gear if the battery is dead as the shifting is done electrically. This is a simple work around as one simply needs to put a polarized plug on the battery terminals when it is assembled the put the mate to the plug in the tool kit for such an emergency that you can either charge the battery or apply 12 volts so the bike can be shifted into neutral.

Tony

Thanks for the confirmation on the point originally made by Rogue. I was thinking it was a mechanical shift for the foot lever, but, it makes sense that it's electronic.

Has anyone had much luck "bump starting" these fuel injected bikes? It's been my experience it's almost impossible.  Have worn myself out trying to on my Tuono

Haven't had to do it on my FJR, but, did it quite a few times on my F4i.

Doesn't the Tuono have the PPC clutch that acts similar to a slipper clutch? If so, I don't think its possible.

 

[twowheelnut]

I owned a 1969 VW beetle with an "auto shift". Anybody remembers that? Three speed + reverse transmission that would work just as a regular transmission BUT without a clutch pedal.

Hmmm, I learned to drive (illegally) in one of those... but I recall them being 2 speed tranny's, no?

 

[bikemonster]

The clutch requires battery power to disengage, so if you leave the bike in gear and leave an electric vest turned on and run the battery dead the bike is NOT MOVEABLE until battery power is restored!

Thanks for posting this info (not that I'm interested in one, but, it's good to hear the realities of how things will work). I think I'm having a problem with symantics. Do you mean it requires battery power to engage (similar to pulling the clutch in) or disengage (similar to letting the clutch out). If you mean disengage, the bike would be movable, but, you couldn't bump start it. If you mean engage, then couldn't shift the bike into neutral by rocking it back and forth to get the gears to disengage? I just tried it with mine with the bike off and not pulling in the clutch. On the center stand, I can pull the shift lever up until it goes into gear, and can continue to do this until I get to 5th. I then did the same thing to get it back to 1st then back up to neutral. So, the bike can be moveable. What would be challenging is bump starting it. Assuming you can get enough speed, there would probably be too much compression to keep the back tire from locking up.

As stated a gazzilion times before, mostly speculation and theory until the real world gets their hands on one.

You can't rock the bike back and forth to get it out of gear if the battery is dead as the shifting is done electrically. This is a simple work around as one simply needs to put a polarized plug on the battery terminals when it is assembled the put the mate to the plug in the tool kit for such an emergency that you can either charge the battery or apply 12 volts so the bike can be shifted into neutral.

Tony

Thanks for the confirmation on the point originally made by Rogue. I was thinking it was a mechanical shift for the foot lever, but, it makes sense that it's electronic.

Has anyone had much luck "bump starting" these fuel injected bikes? It's been my experience it's almost impossible.  Have worn myself out trying to on my Tuono

Haven't had to do it on my FJR, but, did it quite a few times on my F4i.

Doesn't the Tuono have the PPC clutch that acts similar to a slipper clutch? If so, I don't think its possible.

The clutch wasn't the problem as I could get the engine to turn over by popping the clutch after a strenuous run. Just couldn't get the engine to fire. Figured it was the fuel pump or brain that wasn't getting enough charge to fire the motor. Was your bike dead, or just a low battery, i.e. turning over slowly with the starter button?

 

[Randy]

Was your bike dead, or just a low battery, i.e. turning over slowly with the starter button?

Dead. Wasn't even clicking. No LED lights in the dash. In just the length of my driveway, I was able to get enough speed to get it started.

 

[lotecredneck]

Not true. Perhaps with the ignition ON and the bike OFF, that MAY be the case. With the key off the ignition, all electrics are off, and so the gear box is just like any other one

If there is no battery power you ain't getting it out of gear! The shifting is electric even though it is a standard gearbox. It take 12 volts to power the solenoid to make the shift drum rotate and move the shift fork! Pushing the shift pedal or the paddle shifter only actuates a switch that shifts the gearbox. No juice - no shift!

 

[Pacman]

If there is no battery power you ain't getting it out of gear! The shifting is electric even though it is a standard gearbox. It take 12 volts to power the solenoid to make the shift drum rotate and move the shift fork! Pushing the shift pedal or the paddle shifter only actuates a switch that shifts the gearbox. No juice - no shift!

Not so. IF shifting is activated by a solenoid (and I'll give you that for the sake of arguying) that means the solenoid would "kick in" and "get out". just as the starter solenoid does(electrical) or the starter sprag clutch does (mechanical). It wouldn't mean it is constantly "gripping" the gear box. I cannot see any manufacturer doing that. A bad starter solenoid still allows any bike to be started by "bridging" the contacts at the starter.

If it were "your" way, that would mean the gearbox is locked UNLESS the engine ignition is on. That "electrical shifter" MUST be fused. What happens if the fuse blows? Dead bike in gear and you need to call a crane? (You ain't dragging a 650lbs bike!) C'mon !! IMHO... nonsense.

The paddle will actuate the switch that shifts the gear box. true. The PEDAL will actuate the gear box at all times AND the (for lack of a better word) "auto clutch" while the engine is running.

No juice no shift? No sales!! As simple as that!

TWN.. The VW "auto-stick" was 3 gears. Clutch would "electricaly" engage as soon as you moved the shifter. And you could shift it while off and parked. Bit though sometimes but doable.

 

[twowheelnut]

TWN.. The VW "auto-stick" was 3 gears. Clutch would "electricaly" engage as soon as you moved the shifter. And you could shift it while off and parked. Bit though sometimes but doable.

OK. Fading memory... (which, I guess is better that fading mammary!)

 

[FJRocket]

So when the battery is OFF (or dead) and there is no power to the system, is the clutch engaged or disengaged? I would think that it's normal status would be engaged as in "in gear". Do we know this yet? Did I miss that?

Not that it makes a difference. In gear, you probably couldn't get it rolling for a bump start. Maybe in third+ gear you could get it started down a mountain side. Clutch disengaged, well, you're jus going to coast and not move any pistons.

I certainly prefer leaving the bike in gear when parked, though.

BTW, I am describing this correctly, aren't I? When you engage the clutch, the gears mesh and when you disengage the clutch, the parts don't clutch each other and therefore the gears don't mesh. Duh?

I think this is quite interesting. I know it's probably destined for the NEPARTS bin.

Now we need MORE AE info! Waiting is such a terrible thing.

 

[rogerfjrfaster]

As far as bump starting the FJR that is why since having it go dead once I now carry a 11ft cable made from heavy duty speaker wire and small clips.

rogerfjrfaster

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

FJRocket  Posted on Jan 4 2006, 03:06 PM<snip>  So when the battery is OFF (or dead) and there is no power to the system, is the clutch engaged or disengaged? I would think that it's normal status would be engaged as in "in gear". Do we know this yet? Did I miss that?

BTW, I am describing this correctly, aren't I? When you engage the clutch, the gears mesh and when you disengage the clutch, the parts don't clutch each other and therefore the gears don't mesh. Duh?

I agree that "engaged" would probably be the preferred "static" condition -- not holding the clutch plates "open" against the springs. But, I don't think we know this for sure, yet.To answer your other question -- the clutch comes before the gears in the transmission of power; so, un-hooking or hooking up a gear to a trans shaft (they're always meshed, "constant-mesh") really is separate from the clutch. On the AE there are two computer operated electro-mechanical devices to do this (one to operate the clutch and one to shift the gears) and just one brain (I think?). Sort'a similar to the FJR you ride today (the one-brain part) -- 'cept you won't need to use yours as much (just use the Yammie one).

 

[Constant Mesh]

It's doubtful that a solenoid is used to actuate the clutch. A solenoid is a binary device -- energized or not. A solenoid would open or close a valve controlling the flow of hydraulic fluid to the clutch slave cylinder. An analog hydraulic control valve is most likely operating the clutch. The computer will have the capability to slip the clutch, engage the clutch gradually from a standstill, etc. The computer controlled hydraulic control valve should be able to provide a much more precise modulation of the clutch -- probably better than a rider with a manually operated clutch.

A pump similar to the one used in the ABS brake system most likely pressurizes the clutch control fluid. It's possible that the clutch and ABS brakes share a common reservoir of pump pressurized fluid.

Most likely when the engine is shut down the clutch automatically engages. If the transmission was left in gear, you'll have a parking brake. And, when you press the button to start the engine, the computer will first disengage the clutch and then crank the engine. The clutch will remain desengaged until you open the throttle.

 

[twowheelnut]

A solenoid is a binary device

Binary?! The little *******s can walk upright, too? Man, what'll they think of next?

 

[Skippy]

Has anyone had much luck "bump starting" these fuel injected bikes? It's been my experience it's almost impossible. Have worn myself out trying to on my Tuono, much easier just trying to find some jumper cables.

Had to bump start my 05 a few times while at the EOM due to a bad ground and a weak battery.

Just made sure that when I parked it she was pointing down hill a little, bump started very easily every time, even first thing in the morning when it was cold.

Skippy

 

[slapnpop]

In my infinite lack of wisdom, I posted a reply just the opposite of this one, and in reviewing my picture, I noticed this and realized I was wrong, so I deleted that original reply.

If the battery was off, you could just reach down and activate the linkage by hand, as pacman said. See the circled portion of photo below.

 

[lotecredneck]

If there is no battery power you ain't getting it out of gear! The shifting is electric even though it is a standard gearbox. It take 12 volts to power the solenoid to make the shift drum rotate and move the shift fork! Pushing the shift pedal or the paddle shifter only actuates a switch that shifts the gearbox. No juice - no shift!

Not so. IF shifting is activated by a solenoid (and I'll give you that for the sake of arguying) that means the solenoid would "kick in" and "get out". just as the starter solenoid does(electrical) or the starter sprag clutch does (mechanical). It wouldn't mean it is constantly "gripping" the gear box. I cannot see any manufacturer doing that. A bad starter solenoid still allows any bike to be started by "bridging" the contacts at the starter.

If it were "your" way, that would mean the gearbox is locked UNLESS the engine ignition is on. That "electrical shifter" MUST be fused. What happens if the fuse blows? Dead bike in gear and you need to call a crane? (You ain't dragging a 650lbs bike!) C'mon !! IMHO... nonsense.

The paddle will actuate the switch that shifts the gear box. true. The PEDAL will actuate the gear box at all times AND the (for lack of a better word) "auto clutch" while the engine is running.

No juice no shift? No sales!! As simple as that!

TWN.. The VW "auto-stick" was 3 gears. Clutch would "electricaly" engage as soon as you moved the shifter. And you could shift it while off and parked. Bit though sometimes but doable.

I am telling you the information that was given to me from a source at Yamaha that rode the bike and made his report. Take it or leave it. The bike must have electrical power to shift out of or into gear. When the ignition is turned on the clutch computer disengages the clutch so the engine can be started and the transmission can be either placed into gear or out. I asked alot of questions and this information is what was given to me.

Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger!!!

Tony

 

[jestal]

The "new" Hondamatic.....Remember those dogs? They had a 400 and a 750 model if I recall. Auto clutch with a manual shifter for the 2 gears.....Gutless.

Uh....not true.

Not that I am a fan of the old Hondamatic but it had a small torque converter inside and was NOT a mechanical clutch.

It was somewhat slower feeling than a conventional 750 of the day but having ridden one for a bit it was still reasonably quick and would accelerate well from a standstill. Not as well as a clutch drop at 6000 but it would move away smartly...and repeatably without having to modulate the clutch.

 

[jestal]

I think you guys are reading too much into the term "solenoid". Many different electromechanical devices are generically called "solenoids". Some of them operate slightly differently so there is no "generic" solenoid upon which to base all these arguements....so to speak.

The clutch is likely operated by a gear driven electric motor that can modulate the rate of motion of the "solenoid" action of the in and out action of the clutch control. Very similar devices are seen on many cars today in the form of idle speed control motors (often called solenoids) and force motors that are used to control electonic EGR valves and line pressure regulators in automatic transmissions. This technology is neither new nor difficult to invision operating perfectly fine to moduluate and actuate the mechanical clutch.

The gear shifting is very easy to envision being done by a simple off/pull or off/push solenoid to rotate the shift drum one notch at a time. Simple and easy to implement. The shift drum would be mechanically indexed by a spring (as it is normally) and the solenoid motion would pull or push the drum one notch of rotation at a time just like the shift lever normall does.

I suspect the normal shifting of the unit is just like the normal gear box with either a momentary ignition kill or fuel/injector kill to let the gear box unload so as to make the shift. This technology is not new or groundbreaking at all as it is commonly used on drag bikes (an air shifter with a coupled ignition kill) and is the basis for operation of the PCIII "quick shift" kit. You just have to nudge the lever yourself with the quick shift kit instead of having a linked solenoid or air shifter mechanism do it. With the aftermarket kits and air shifter kits this only works on the upshifts as that is what people want the device for but the concept will work fine for downshifts as well if the "kill time" is varied accordingly. That is the beauty of the interlocked electronic controls...it allows an infinitely variable kill time or kill sequence depending on RPM/load/speed/gear select/etc.

Not to take anything away from what Yamaha is providing but I think people are believing that there is a lot more to the system than there may really be. The mechanics of the clutch, gearbox and shift mechanism seem to be the exact same thing that is on current model FJR's. The eletrically activated (solenoid??) clutch mechanism and the electrically activated shift lever combined with the electronics to interlock the two are new and different but the operating principles of the transmission and clutch appear to be the same as normal.

Also not taking anything at all away from the technical development that had to go on with the software and interlocked controls and algorithms necessary to make this system work. There had to be a lot of development done to develop the control system necessary (the specific computer algorithms in the controller) to make the system work.

Don't fret too much over the details until some one has had a chance to really ride it and investigate the pieces more.

If the shift drum lever that is exposed can be moved by hand it is entirely possible that the bike can be rocked with the key off (or battery dead) to get it into neutral or first gear....but the interlocked solenoid action may prevent this thru a rachet or something....just have to try it and see.

If the battery is dead the clutch is likely engaged so rolling the bike and "bump" starting it may be possible if you can reach down with your hand and click the shift drum actuator into gear....if the shift drum solenoid will allow it. Yamaha may have prevented this due to the unbalanced and somewhat uncontrolled nature of trying this...rolling along with one hand off the bars reaching down to click it into gear.....potentially frightful.

In any case, all of this is just speculation until a real bike is present with the appropriate folks handling it.

Also expect some sort of override or limit to the number of full throttle holeshots you can do. Many of the European exotic cars with automatic clutches will allow only one or two full throttle launches before an inhibit kicks in to let the clutch cool before the next full throttle hole shot can be done. This could be a clutch inhibit (it just won't engage as the PCM will keep it disengaged) and/or the spark/fuel will be killed to some cylinders to significantly reduce power.

 

[JSimon]

I would be willing to bet the solenoid energizes to disengage the clutch.

So far as solenoids being discrete devices, this is incorrect, many DC solenoids work proportionally with pulse width mudulators. Nachi sells pulse width modulators for their proportional control valves as a matter of fact.

JS