FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[bramfrank]

Update time:

I just got off the phone with the Canadian inspector handling the file and he tells me that Yamaha Canada is still denying that there is a significant issue. They claim that the problem is tied to 'accessories' - which is just plain ridiculous; My accessories are wired directly to the battery. In fact of the affected bikes, fully 74+% either have NO high current accessories or they are wired to the battery directly.

Yamaha provided a list of the items that run through the S4 connector; the fans, headlight, heated grips and so on - unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that the ground then routes through another pin off to the next spider - so with the exception of the starter motor and alternator, EVERYTHING goes through the S4.

This brings me to the first request:

DOES ANYONE HAVE A CLEAN PDF OF THE ELECTRICAL DIAGRAMS WITH THE DESIGNATION PAGES FROM THE SERVICE MANUAL FOR THE GEN-II THAT THEY CAN SEND TO ME TO BE RELAYED TO THE INSPECTOR? I only have a paper copy and my scanner is limited to 8.5 x 14, which doesn't handle the 11x17 schematics. .- I suspect he would want everything in the 'wiring diagram' section of the manual for both the A and AE models. Additionally, there are a couple of pages which show where things are on the bike; If you would prefer to just send me the while manual I can extract the pages he needs and send those to him.

I'm not sure what the diagrams will do for him, mind you because they don;t document the spiders and what they do - for that I will send him the link to the excellent post here that explains where the power runs and what the current levels are.

Thanks to those who responded. I now have an electronic copy of the manual and am extracting the relevant pages for the inspector.

It also looks like we need a bit of community activism.

The inspector would also like to get a better grasp on the connector issue and would like to see a Gen-II machine in person, so I will be opening a thread to see if we have an Ottawa-based member with a Gen-II who might pull his tank to show the inspector where the S4 connector is and how it is oriented.

Edit: Ignacio will not allow me to open a separate thread to ask if someone will allow the inspector to visit him, so if you lve in the Ottawa/Hull/Gatineau area and see this here and can make yourself and your bike available at your place for him to look at, please let me know. Your bike need not have been bitten by the spider - he just wants to get a grasp on the physical attributes of the connector and the placement and exposure of the S4 connector on the bike.

 

Admin Edit: bramfrank was reminded for at least the second time that posting the same thing in two places is frowned upon in this forum and duplicate removed. / Ignacio

Of note is that the NHTSA is not co-operating with Transport Canada - they have (and I quote) "No Interest" in the problem - time for you US taxpayers to get vocal with them about their snotty attitude!!

Oh, I did manage to divine one tidbit of data during my conversation: It seems that the total number of 'wholesale deliveries' of the Gen-II bikes in the 2006 through 2010 model year to day in Canada is about 1000. Assuming that the standard 10:1 ratios hold true, it would seem to validate the presumption that Yamaha has delivered about 10,000 of the ,machines in the US . . .

 

[John d]

I can't believe how completely useless the factory service manual is on this issue! No mention of the grounding system wiring/spiders anywhere in the manual or in the wiring schematics.

 

[na1g]

NHTSA, your tax dollars and YOU:

Considering the 461 posts on this subject (yikes!) you'd think there is a problem. But why would NHTSA thinks so? I was just browsing their site and found these numbers of reports for the electrical gremlin (AKA: spider): 2010 = 0, 2009 = 3, 2008 = 0, 2007 = 8 + 2 more listed as model "FJR13", 2006 = 25.

It hardly looks like a Toyota-level issue when you look at these numbers. So all you guys and gals who have had spider bites and have not taken the ten minutes to report it to NHTSA, shame on you. This is NHTSA's job. It's what you are paying for. You may have done the repair on your FJR and moved on but the problem will continue to exist for other riders until NHTSA and Yamaha deal with it. Let's help them do that by giving them an accurate idea of what's going on.

pete :angry2:

 

[MartyA]

NHTSA, your tax dollars and YOU:

Considering the 461 posts on this subject (yikes!) you'd think there is a problem. But why would NHTSA thinks so? I was just browsing their site and found these numbers of reports for the electrical gremlin (AKA: spider): 2010 = 0, 2009 = 3, 2008 = 0, 2007 = 8 + 2 more listed as model "FJR13", 2006 = 25.

It hardly looks like a Toyota-level issue when you look at these numbers. So all you guys and gals who have had spider bites and have not taken the ten minutes to report it to NHTSA, shame on you. This is NHTSA's job. It's what you are paying for. You may have done the repair on your FJR and moved on but the problem will continue to exist for other riders until NHTSA and Yamaha deal with it. Let's help them do that by giving them an accurate idea of what's going on.

pete :angry2:

Mine is still there, 2007 with the ODI No. ending in 411.

I think I see a pattern - no injuries, no deaths. (One injury listed in the 2006 list.) There are a couple (including mine) of sketchy mentions that the spider bite is potentially life-threatening, but only one report of injury, and no reports of deaths.

I worked for years as a quality professional in the supply chain to the Big 3. My companies helped develop the 1st and 2nd generation air bag deployment systems - the magnetic sensors. Another project was the 1st coil-per-plug system. I mention these example projects because there are 3 levels of failure that the automotive companies worried about during the development and initial implementation.

1. Inconvenience - like an ***** light comes on, strange noise, mild vibration.

2. Walk home - stalls or causes operator to pull over, or does not restart after parked.

3. Fatality - serious or complete loss of operator control during travel.

I am guessing that the NHTSA looks at the reports and ranks them similar to this. While I think their form is inadequate, what they might be seeing in the 2007 reports is a around a 2. Since there are only a couple of mentions of a potential safety issue in the comments section, I am guessing they are not going to get too excited with a few "2's". I think they might get a little more excited if EVERYONE who found a burned spider, whether their bike actually stopped like mind did, or not, would REPORT IT!

Here is an excerpt of an actual investigation that is underway, with only 35 complaints:

The Office of Defects Investigation has received 35 reports on the subject vehicles alleging a corrosion related failure of the driver's side front strut tower. In 18 of the reports there were allegations that the failures affected the vehicles steering, including five that reported the steering "shaft" or "column" broke resulting in a loss of steering. Severe corrosion of the frame/body structure in the area of the driver's side front strut tower can allow the strut tower to fail. If the failed strut tower contacts the steering column upper joint, or otherwise restricts the rotation of the steering column shaft, it can result in increased steering effort, steering impediment, or a complete loss of steering control.

(The bold is mine.)

Here is the USA link again:

https://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Owners

Click on the "File a Complaint" link on the left, then use the "Online Form."

 

[Harald]

So all you guys and gals who have had spider bites and have not taken the ten minutes to report it to NHTSA, shame on you.

pete :angry2:

Thanks for reviving this issue. My 07 failure was reported by me and I did mention that my headlights failed while I was riding home in the DARK! :angry2: I would think that qualifies as a safety concern, but they really need to hear from more FJR owners. It only takes a couple minutes after CLICKING HERE . Don't delay - do it now!

 

[spoilsport]

I am a new FJR owner, as of four days ago. When I posted in the newbie section, one of the first suggestions I got was to install a fix for the electrical system. So, I read up on that topic and I now have a few comments and suggestions. I have worked for many years in the electronics field where this kind of problem pops up from time to time, so I've got a few theories about it that I wanted to share. Feel free to shoot me down if I am wrong. Others have been on this problem for a long time - I'm new to the party and might be going down the wrong path.

This problem appears to be related to moisture degrading electrical connections. While there is some discussion of possibly underrated wiring, I've seen no evidence of this. Moreover, if the wiring were underrated, the problem would exhibit throughout the wiring harness. The fact that it is concentrated on the electrical connectors, particularly S4, points to a different problem.

Moisture is the nemesis of electrical connections because it caused oxidation. Oxidation causes contact resistance and contact resistance, when accompanied by high current, causes heat. You can see the evidence of this heat in the photos of the connectors, which show heat degradation extending a few inches down the insulated wiring.

In the absence of moisture, I don't think this problem would arise. So, the question becomes how to prevent moisture from degrading the connectors. One suggestion has been to use dielectric grease. I think this is an excellent suggestion, since the purpose of dielectric grease is to block moisture penetration. Others have pointed out that dielectric grease is an insulator, and could possibly degrade the electrical connection. You don't see that in practice because the grease is designed to be displaced by pressure and reside strictly in cavities (where we want it). So, dielectric grease if one possible (and very cheap solution) to this problem. A lot of people can't seem to get around the idea that dielectric grease is an insulator, and have rejected it. At first, I thought that was nonsense, but I've decided not to use it because it is "possible" that the contact to contact pressure in some of these connectors might not be adequate to displace the grease. After all, if the contact pressure was high, we probably wouldn’t be seeing these problems in the first place.

So, I started wondering if there might be a better solution than dielectric grease - something that could fill the cavities, block moisture, and improve conductivity. It has been pointed out that that conductive grease wouldn't be good to use because it might short out the the individual leads. However, this is a grounding buss (albeit a very lame one), so that's not an issue. So, there's no reason conductive grease couldn't be used. But, we really need something that we can use on all the electrical connections. Then I recalled two products that I've used in the past, Penetrox and Noalox.

Penetrox is an interesting product. It is not a dielectric (insulating) grease, nor is it a conductive grease in the sense that it could short out adjoining connectors. However, it adds no resistance to electrical connections. So, it can be used on all the connectors without concern about shorting anything out.

I did a bit of surfing on it and found a good explanation of how it works. I am pretty confident that the failures seen could have been avoided by preventive maintenance with Penetrox. Here's the link: Penetrox

Note that penetrox is not compatible with polyethylene or rubber. I don’t think that’s a concern here, but maybe someone can confirm the composition of the connector housing. Keep it off of the wiring insulation.

Finally, I don’t think Yamaha has given the FJR Gen2 a very good grounding arrangement (but be thanking we're not talking final drives). It’s simply not engineered very well. So, in my view, the best solution is still to install one of the wiring solutions that are offered in the “group buy” section of the forum (and use something like Penetrox). These are real upgrades for the FJR and well worth the modest sum being asked. However, we know that for most people it's too much bother or too complicated to install these upgrades. So, for the rest of us, especially those that rely totally on dealer service, you might want to provide a bottle of Penetrox to the dealer. I imagine they’d be willing to treat the connections the next time the bike is in for service. You can get it from DXengineering and a bunch of other sites.

 

[Fingerflicker]

I felt that moisture was also a problem when I had my first breakdown. I only had time for a quick fix the first time I repaired it, but I noticed that the connector was in a spot where it was exposed to rain & wind. The 2nd time I had to do a repair I took extreme measures to keep out moisture. I check the grounding spider every spark plug change and it all seems to be holding up very well.

 

[na1g]

Great info, Spoilsport. Penetrox is used in connections of aluminum radio antennas (ham radio and others) which are exposed to the elements and it works well in that application. Should work just as well on wire connectors. The technical info you attached is also very informative. I suspect (not founded in actual experience) that Penetrox is not compatible with polyethylene and rubber because it does not bond to or "wet" those materials

so cannot create a seal. I don't think (often the case) it would damage those materials.

I was considering slathering the connectors with "liquid electrical tape" which is effective at sealing out water. But it would make future removal of the connectors difficult and may not withstand the heat in our application.

So I'm going with Penetrox unless something changes my mind before I get to it. Penetrox or similar may be available at a good electic supply house but a ham radio store should have it, too.

Just one question: will winter never end???

pete

 

[spoilsport]

Great info, Spoilsport. Penetrox is used in connections of aluminum radio antennas (ham radio and others) which are exposed to the elements and it works well in that application. Should work just as well on wire connectors. The technical info you attached is also very informative. I suspect (not founded in actual experience) that Penetrox is not compatible with polyethylene and rubber because it does not bond to or "wet" those materials

so cannot create a seal. I don't think (often the case) it would damage those materials.

I was considering slathering the connectors with "liquid electrical tape" which is effective at sealing out water. But it would make future removal of the connectors difficult and may not withstand the heat in our application.

So I'm going with Penetrox unless something changes my mind before I get to it. Penetrox or similar may be available at a good electic supply house but a ham radio store should have it, too.

Just one question: will winter never end???

pete

It's 65 in Denver today. I should be riding. It's supposed to get up to 70 on Wednesday, when I will be! Massachusetts can't be too far behind us.

 

[RZ350]

For those new to the party, you might want to check out this other thread created a while back on fixing the grounding issue: <LINKY> It was created to keep this thread focused on polling the owners bitten by the dreaded spiders.

My recommendation is you add some extra ground path(s) to relieve spider S4 a bit since nearly all current in the main harness eventually funnels through one terminal in that ground connector on its way back to the battery. Of course, keeping all connectors in good condition will minimize electrical issues as the bike ages.

Just my two cents...

 

[kurtfriedrich]

Seems like this Penetrox is good stuff. The place mentioned has a $20 minimum order. I went to www.galco.com and ordered it, they had a good price, but $15 for shipping seemed a bit high.

One big question, is it necessary to unplug the connecters to apply this stuff?

 

[spoilsport]

Seems like this Penetrox is good stuff. The place mentioned has a $20 minimum order. I went to www.galco.com and ordered it, they had a good price, but $15 for shipping seemed a bit high.

One big question, is it necessary to unplug the connecters to apply this stuff?

Penetrox is an oxide inhibitor. It needs to coat the surface of the electrical contact - most importantly, the contact to contact surface area.

 

[Checkswrecks]

FWIW as a data point: No problems with my 2007, which rides all year in DC commuting. This includes rain and they do use salt on the winter roads here. Just took apart each of the spiders and every one was clean as could be.

Hit each with contact cleaner anyway and re-assembled with dielectric grease packing each. Added RoadRunner's grounding harnesses for fans and lights when putting it back together, simply because I'd already bought them and they can't hurt. (Nicely built, Art, & very easy install would not have required lifting the tank.)

Farkles are heated jacket and gloves, plus a large radio and occasionally the GPS.

 

[BkrK12]

For those of us having either strange or intermittent electrical issues on their Gen II bikes, don't be too quick to assume the ground spiders can't be the culprit in your case. Everyone should read Brodie's explanation of how the entire grounding circuit is connected. Those little devils are everywhere and affect everything.

Late last Fall, I picked up a slight buzzing in the bike that hadn't been there before. It wasn't bad and, if I hadn't had it running so smoothly before, I probably would have ignored it. I chased it last Fall and this Spring and wasn't able to get rid of it. When S4 produced the magic blue smoke for me several weeks ago, the dealer replaced the whole harness. The ride home, after the major surgery, revealed no buzzing. Several rides since then continue without the buzzing. I didn't touch anything. I confirmed with the dealer that they didn't touch anything, beyond the harness replacement. The conclusion I draw is that there was something in the harness that was creating a constant, non-fatal environment resulting in the buzzing. I can't give you a logical explanation of what it could have been. But, given the circumstances, it seems highly likely that it was the result of something in the grounding circuit.

As another part of the puzzle, this Spring I was having some strange dash light patterns come up intermittently. I suspected the ground spiders but couldn't get it to fail consistently. It seems to me that there were things going on that were leading up to the total failure of S4. Weird stuff is going on in there and it isn't always logical. I've read of people having an S4 failure and doing a perfectly good looking repair. In at least one case, the spider failed again, within several minutes.

Again, YMMV. Just a caution to not assume it can't be the spiders because it isn't a logical symptom. Also, a suggestion that you need to install Brodie's harness (mine will be here Monday) or another solution of your choice, as long as it's more robust than stock.

 

[bramfrank]

So, have you filed your report with the NHTSA?

 

[luxrybound]

I got the spider bite awhile back and i have since repaired it using Brodie's harness. If you have not dealt with Brodie and have questioned his harness I will vouch for him. The package I received was first class work.

My s4 was burnt and damaged 3 wires. I could have cut the ends off and solder the wires back together but i wanted to keep it original looking.

I talked to Brodie and he has some of the female wire ends and the female holders.I got Brodie to send a holder and some female wire ends with his harness.

I took a pick and released the wire ends on the burnt plug and had to cut 3 of the wires out due to the melting damage. When I received Brodie's wiring i Cut the female wire ends off and installed new ends supplied by Brodie and installed in the new plastic holder. If you look at the harness now it looks just like it left the factory just without the extra black melted wires

To make this repair I went ahead and drained the antifreeze and removed the coolant pipe.Its not that much more work and it made getting to the s4 plug a lot easier to make a solid repair.

After the repair of the s4 I just followed Brodies harness installation and all when as described.

Before the repair I had symptoms of this going bad The bike would cut off but start right back up, my fuel gauge was inaccurate I could fill up and ride 10 miles and the gauge would drop to a half a tank. Then on my last trip the bike cut off and I had to cycle the ignition key several times to get it started again (which was fun sitting in 5 clock traffic out off town) I was lucky it did make it back home without leaving me stranded.

After the repair my fuel gauge works accurate and I swear it runs better now than ever before .My millage has come up also.

I would highly recommend Brodies kit. My bike is a 2009 with 12000 miles so hopefully now more problems

 

[BkrK12]

I assume that question was directed at me and the answer is yes. I filed a report the first time and filed another report this time.

 

[luxrybound]

A few weeks back I had a s4 melt down out of town. I was fortunate to make it be home. I had a few signs before like cutting off,fuel gauge reading strange etc.

While on our trip it shut off and like all the other times it would fire back up with the start button. Then it finally got where I had to cycle the key off and on. Real fun in 5 o'clock traffic out of town

After I returned home i investigated and sure enough S4 was burnt! Who would have guessed that

I contacted Brodie on his wiring kit and asked if he had any female wire ends and the plastic connector and he did.I bought the kit and the extra female ends and the body and when I received the kit I was really impressed. If anyone has second thoughts on the quality of Brodie's work don't worry its a professional job.

I could have solder the ends and so on but I wanted to keep it factory looking.

I drained the antifreeze and removed the coolant pipe which is not that much work so i could get to the plug and do a solid repair on the connector. I removed the good females connectors with a pick to unlock it from the plastic housing then I had to cut the others out due to melting. Once I did that i cut the bad part out of the harness then crimped the new female ends on the wire then snapped then back into the new plastic body supplied by Brodie.

Once that was all done I put the coolant pipe back on and fill the radiator.Now im ready to install Brodies harness I just followed his instruction and all went like clock work.

Now that its back together I have noticed my fuel gauge works more accurate than ever. I could fill up and with in 10 miles it would drop to a half a tank now its reads on the money. It starts better and I'm getting the mileage I used to get when new. Had dropped in low 30 to 35 mpg and now mid 40's. I swear its running better also.

Long enough just thought I would share and recommend Brodie on the repair harness. I hope I have no more problems with the bike some guys I ride with are calling my ride a Yamaharley I cant have that

 

[yamafitter]

I installed the Brodie harness as a precautionary measured before my cross-country ride out to WCR last year and can vouch for the solid workmanship that goes into the new harness by Brodie.

Even though I had no signs of any spider issues I was not willing to tempt the gods. The bike ran flawlessly for the entire trip. This is a 'must do' mod for anyone with a Gen II if nothing more than peace of mind.

 

[BkrK12]

Just installed my Brodie harness. A relatively simple procedure. The biggest problem is getting the caps off S5 (just for the maintenance and put back together), S7 and S8. You are conscious of how fragile those connectors are and you are trying not to stress them while you get a firm enough hold to unclip the locking tab on the cap. All electrical connections are back together, the tank is back on and the bike runs fine. As a matter of fact, the bike seems to run better, as I mentioned in a previous post about getting the new harness installed. I suspect low level grounding issues are affecting things all over the electrical system.

Thanks, Brodie.

Tootsie rolls are one of my favorites.