FJRF009.0: Ground Spider Research

[bramfrank]

Had a nice half hour chat with the defect investigator who is handling the spider complaint I filed.

As of last week only two reports had been received, but armed with the links from this board that I provided and (I must admit) a carefully crafted and very literate cover letter, the department is 'concerned' about the problem because of the way it manifests itself.

Also, they raised the issue of a potential fire hazard (that hadn't occurred to me per-se) because the wiring sometimes burns up and it is in close proximity to the fuel tank.

They have contacted Yamaha Canada who now have a limited amount of time to respond to the query - I heard indirectly via my dealer that Yamaha knows it was me (so?).

Whether a notice or a recall has yet to be determined, but the investigator has said that there will be action of some sort - Transport Canada will exercise whatever powers they have at their disposal to do what is right for the riding public.

One item we discussed was that there is no obvious run of reports of this type of problem out of Europe, where there must be a significant number of FJRs and where the weather may be more humid and the riders putting on more mileage than here . . . very strange.

Doesn't hurt that the investigator's background includes time spent as a trauma worker with experience in the morgue as well, so he knows how bad it can be.

The obvious question is to ask where the US complaints stand. Has anyone followed up on their reports?

 

[iboldguy]

Had a nice half hour chat with the defect investigator who is handling the spider complaint I filed.
As of last week only two reports had been received, but armed with the links from this board that I provided and (I must admit) a carefully crafted and very literate cover letter, the department is 'concerned' about the problem because of the way it manifests itself.

............................................

Thanks for your great work on the "spider problem" with the gummint. I filled out and submitted the Transport Canada on line form

although I have not had the problem yet. I quoted that I didn't want to experience a catastrophic failure while on the road in order to raise the issue.

 

[vaughn]

Bram,

Thanks for the effort you have put into this (before and after the problem presented itself to you). Glad to hear you got in touch with a real person who

seems to be dedicated to getting to the cause of the problem.

It is quite tiresome that the dealerships respond to the FJR forum with the usual, uninspired "don't believe everything you read on the forums". It would serve

Yamaha and the dealerships well to spend some time on the forums to see what their customers are experiencing. The members of this forum are not only current

customers, but potential future customers as well.

Vaughn

 

[dcarver]

Is there any reciprocity between CA and US on issues like this?

 

[El Cajone]

I contacted Transport Canada yesterday to report the ground spider problem I had on my '07 FJR. The defect investigator I spoke to acknowledged they have received a few other complaints about this issue and that a case file has been opened. He also said that a notice was sent to Yamaha Canada within the last few days.

Then today I spoke with Scott Harrison, the customer service manager at Yamaha Canada (Toronto). He acknowledged they recieved a notice fron Transport Canada about 4 days ago and that they are just starting an investigation. He said they were surprised by the TC notice since there was nothing in the data they usually monitor (e.g. upsurge in FJR wiring harness orders) to alert them to a problem.

The good news is that there is the beginning of some action on this issue in Canada; both TC and Yamaha Canada seem to be taking this seriously. We'll have to wait to see where this goes. If there are any other Canuck riders that have had a ground spider problem but not reported it yet, now is the time.

Thanks again to Bramfrank for spearheading this.

 

[bramfrank]

Part of the problem here is that the majority of occurrences have been dealt with by the bike owners and local dealers and have NOT been publicly reported anywhere except here (and who knows how many affected bikes there are where the owner is NOT a member here?) - not even to Yamaha .

THE ISSUE IS NOT THAT IS HAS HAPPENED TO SOME, BUT RATHER THAT IT CAN HAPPEN TO OTHERS. Those who have pro-actively done something (albeit inappropriate - like soldering the grounds) are less likely to suffer the problem while on the road - it is those who are oblivious and who get caught in just the right (wrong) way that are most likely in harms' way.

That is the reason why I have been vocal about getting this reported in the US, where there is a fairly large population of FJRs and, since 2 weeks ago when it bit my bike, up here in Canada. This must be dealt with by the manufacturer as a design defect before someone is maimed or killed when their machine shuts down without warning in high speed traffic or on a dark twisting road late at night.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE SUFFERED THE PROBLEM TO REPORT YOUR CONCERNS - the fact that it happens puts the liability on Yamaha's shoulder's in the event that something happens; They can and will be held accountable by the courts if they do not take appropriate action and 'the worst' comes to pass. As reported in the previous post, Yamaha's position was 'what problem'? Yet we know for fact that wiring harnesses are out of stock in the US, having been fully drawn from inventory . . . and they DO speak among themselves.

Further, it has been reported that Yamaha USA was inspecting wiring harnesses - though we already know WHY the problem happens - so the Americans know, which means that the Japanese know and, if they really didn't tell everyone else to be on the lookout, then the mother ship has been irresponsible (then again, they ARE Japanese and look at Toyota's recent rug sweepings (and now, apparently Honda and Nissan as well) for an idea of how they may be thinking at headquarters - it could be a cultural thing). And that's why we all need to keep the authorities advised and demanding explanations.

If your bike has been bit by the spider, why not append the spider graphic to your sig after you report the problen to your authorities? The link for the image is: https://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh458/E...roundspider.jpg

I'm curious. Has no one in Europe suffered from the problem?

 

[bramfrank]

I was reviewing the threads concerning the problem - the very first time we were told of the problem on this forum was HERE, when member un4gvn, who works as a tech at an Atlanta Yamaha dealership reported that they were seeing a lot of bikes starting to come through their shop with the problem . . . that was 18 months ago - and Yamaha has done nothing as yet about the problem - and Canada doesn't know about it at all?

We have to keep applying pressure at the government level to get the manufacturer to assume it's proper role in resolving the problem. Unfortunately, very few reports have been filed to date, even with the US NHTSA . . . . .

 

[dustyrains]

For all we know this issue may have already caused one or more serious crashes or fatalities. If it has caused a crash fatality, it seems likely to me that a crash investigation, if one is done, would be unlikely to uncover this problem. With the rider dead, it would most likely be chalked up to "rider error".

 

[bramfrank]

Well, I just had three telephone conversations; two with Yamaha Canada (the first with a person I suspect was a secretary, the second one was with Scott Harrison); The third was with Transport Canada,

The Yamaha discussions did not go as well as I'd have liked. It seems to me that the people I spoke with just don't quite 'get it'.

The first call was to schedule my leaving my bike with the dealer for 24 hours (which has since become '24 to 48') so they could 'inspect and investigate'. Well, I cleaned up the connector and put it all back together. So what is there to see? Nothing much different than what they'd see on new machine on any dealer's floor . . .

. . . I DID ask that they do the outstanding warranty work on my bike while it was there and I asked that I be able to be there when they were, given my electrical engineering background. I was refused and they don't know about any other claims.

When I spoke with Scott he told me that they have never moved a wiring harness (yet we have one member here who reported that his wiring harness was replaced - in British Columbia - and this board represents only a portion of the community, so it is likely there are others up here. I suspect that they could be in denial. He also said that they can't replace my harness because they have no inventory - to which I responded that replacing it would accomplish nothing because the defect is in the underlying design.

They then said that all they had to go on was my report to Transport Canada - I invited them to peruse the fjrforum web site, having provided the relevant links - they told me that 'the data was hearsay because they couldn't speak with the parties and it was in another country in any case . . . . now THAT is hogwash.

When I read the initial diagnostic post from un4gyn to them they said they didn't know who he was or what his qualifications were (it does say he works at a Yamaha dealership as a mech) and had no way to contact him directly.

I took issue and pointed out that I could easily solicit his contact information; Further they have lots of photos and the physics of the problem are not geographically limited (which again raises the question of whether the Europeans are seeing this problem). In fact, given the design and the nature of the problem, I wonder that it didn't occur to them that this could happen before they finalised the design - isn't corrosion a huge item for consideration in any vehicular environment?

Transport Canada has told me that they ARE taking this VERY seriously. They also told me that they don't interact with the Scott Harrisons of the company, but rather the engineering staff who ARE concerned.

Edit:

I went looking at posts on the subject - dcarver was the first person to report the symptoms that I can find - that was Aug 19, 2008 - the first diagnosis was the one conveyed by un4gyn referenced above. We KNOW that there have been repairs under the warranty in Canada, yet Yamaha says that they've never heard of it and that NO wiring harnesses for Gen-II machines have ever been sold in Canada - they don't even have the one they would put in my bike, even though it wouldn't 'do' any good.

My dealer has let it be known to me that Yamaha is not pleased with me. The good news is that the dealer likes me.

 

[TILAM]

I had a simliar experience with Yamaha Canada when I was experiencing the ignition switch problem prior to the Canadian recall. They said they had never heard if it and since I hadn't purchased the extended warranty ($1200) I was on my own. The dealer quoted me a price of something like $600 for the ignition switch parts. The recall came during the winter when I was in the process of rebuilding the switch myself.

Yamaha will denigh everything until forced to aknowledge it by Transport Canada

I suspect that since there are less FJR's in Canada there will be less occurrances and therefore appearently less of a problem.

 

[TILAM]

If this were an aircraft problem they would be all over it like "Ugly on a Gorrilla".

 

[Harald]

The obvious question is to ask where the US complaints stand. Has anyone followed up on their reports?

I hadn't followed up, so I decided to search the database of safety complaints. Looking at www.safercar.gov for 2007 Yamaha FJR1300 complaints reveals only a single report which is the one that I filed! Is no one else filing reports? I did also look at FJR13 model Yamaha's, but all 14 reports were older ones about the ignition switch problem. All you 07 owners with spider problems need to step up to the plate!

I wasn't very happy to see that there's 2 different models available to pick from: FJR1300 or FJR13. This could lead to dilution of results unless everyone files under the same model number. Looking under 2006 bikes, I see that there's choices for either FJR1300A or FJR1300AE.

 

[phroenips]

The obvious question is to ask where the US complaints stand. Has anyone followed up on their reports?

I hadn't followed up, so I decided to search the database of safety complaints. Looking at www.safercar.gov for 2007 Yamaha FJR1300 complaints reveals only a single report which is the one that I filed! Is no one else filing reports? I did also look at FJR13 model Yamaha's, but all 14 reports were older ones about the ignition switch problem. All you 07 owners with spider problems need to step up to the plate!

I wasn't very happy to see that there's 2 different models available to pick from: FJR1300 or FJR13. This could lead to dilution of results unless everyone files under the same model number. Looking under 2006 bikes, I see that there's choices for either FJR1300A or FJR1300AE.

I haven't experienced this problem on either of my two 07s, and now that I've installed Brodie's harness, I don't expect to. But I did see that there were three complaints filed under the '09

 

[FJRGuy]

Interesting that there are no reports of this issue in Europe. :huh:

I have not had any spider issues and they look good on inspection. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Yamaha came through with a fix soon as I'm not spending my limited farkle dollars on overkill solutions to an issue without an isolated cause. Yamaha has the resources and should do a thorough investigation. I'll follow the progress with interest!

 

[RadioHowie]

Interesting that there are no reports of this issue in Europe. :huh: I have not had any spider issues and they look good on inspection. I'd be pleasantly surprised if Yamaha came through with a fix soon as I'm not spending my limited farkle dollars on overkill solutions to an issue without an isolated cause. Yamaha has the resources and should do a thorough investigation. I'll follow the progress with interest!

Fortunately for us Gen I pilots, the spider issue only appears to be a Gen II problem, but I think you're missing the point on the "overkill solutions to an issue without an isolated cause" statement. The Brody spider-fix, for instance, is NOT a high dollar, or overkill solution, and there certainly has been enough documented anecdotal evidence published on this forum alone that lends credibility to the fact ( or at least intelligent opinion ) that the problem is NOT "an issue without an isolated cause."

The cause has fairly well been determined that the "spider" design is simply inadequate for the current flow through the ganged ground, and the slightest bit of corrosion can quickly escalate into system failure.

I'm not Gen II bashing here (for a change ) just pointing out that trying the justify the problem away is no solution to an obvious current or future issue.

Just checking out FJROwners.com, I agree with you, though, that no Yurripeen reports I could find during my cursory search.

 

[El Choclo]

I've been bit by the spider: 2006 FJR1300 with 30880 miles on the clock, bought it used from a local Honda dealer on 4/8/10.

Started noticing weird hiccups less than a month after I bought it. I first started to notice problems on the way home from Deals Gap, NC while sitting in 98 degree rush hour Louisville traffic. Bike died on me: turn signal indicators lit up, gas gauge flashed, windshield stayed put, no headlight or taillight, no starter button, no fans. Pushed bike to side of road and fiddled with it for a few minutes, thinking it had just overheated. After a few minutes of sitting around, it fired right up. This pattern happened to me everyday for about a month. Decided to take it to the dealer when the bike died on me in a low speed, pucker-inducing turn with my fiancee on the back.

Dealer spent 7 hours of labor to diagnose the problem. Had the choice of replacing the entire wiring harness ($$$$) or changing and rewiring the grounding block for free. I chose option #2. Thank you Dreyer Honda for paying Dreyer Yamaha's labor to correct this issue! It is a real safety hazard that should definitely be a recall from Yamaha.

We will see how things go. So far, so good.

 

[bramfrank]

I've been bit by the spider: 2006 FJR1300 with 30880 miles on the clock, bought it used from a local Honda dealer on 4/8/10.
Started noticing weird hiccups less than a month after I bought it. I first started to notice problems on the way home from Deals Gap, NC while sitting in 98 degree rush hour Louisville traffic. Bike died on me: turn signal indicators lit up, gas gauge flashed, windshield stayed put, no headlight or taillight, no starter button, no fans. Pushed bike to side of road and fiddled with it for a few minutes, thinking it had just overheated. After a few minutes of sitting around, it fired right up. This pattern happened to me everyday for about a month. Decided to take it to the dealer when the bike died on me in a low speed, pucker-inducing turn with my fiancee on the back.

Dealer spent 7 hours of labor to diagnose the problem. Had the choice of replacing the entire wiring harness ($$$$) or changing and rewiring the grounding block for free. I chose option #2. Thank you Dreyer Honda for paying Dreyer Yamaha's labor to correct this issue! It is a real safety hazard that should definitely be a recall from Yamaha.

We will see how things go. So far, so good.

I'm sorry to hear you are another member of the club. Spider bites suck - and, from your quick description, you are lucky perhaps to be alive.

But were you aware of the issue from the site?

Why the heck should it have taken 7 shop hours to diagnose? All they had to do was to go to Google and enter the symptoms and it pops right up. It is the first result for the query: "Yamaha fjr1300 gas gauge flashes, headlights fail, brake lights fail, stalls, gauges swing".

Oh, I forgot. Yamaha's official line is that 'if you read it on the internet, then it can't be true'.

I sent you a PM to remind you to file your complaint with the NHTSA . . . and why are you thankful the dealer stepped up to fix the defective bike he sold you? That was his obligation under the law, since it was a hidden defect and it showed up within 30 days of delivery. Yamaha corporate SHOULD have paid for it themselves or you might have even sued for a new bike if your state has a powerful lemon law. But to date there have been no signs of them owning any cojones and taking responsability for their crappy design.

 

[kaitsdad]

Seems I got bit by S4. Had the bike apart to replace the CCT today, and while I was at it, I installed a ground harness.

I had not had any symptoms, but found this when I uncovered S4 -

This melting happened in the last 250 miles. Very sudden.

The female connector was discolored, and two of the wires had started to melt the insulation - but had not yet exposed copper. I caught this just in time.

Complaint filed with NHTSA.

 

[canucklehead-biker]

Add one more...

'06AE, 60300 km, third season of use, generally in dry environment (Calgary). ALL electrical farkles are run through an aux fuse block rather than wired into the bikes electrical system.

*EDIT* VIN is 000062

As documented in my tale of woe returning from CFR... I've been bitten by the S4 spider, same as everyone else, and the component part looks EXACTLY like all the others... hole burned through the black cover, wires inside fried, etc.

Dealer in Michigan where I went for roadside repair cut the offending connector off, spliced the wires together, and cleaned up the other ground spiders in the harness... which should hopefully get me home to Calgary. Will install a new harness AND Brodie's aux harness once I get there.

Checked the connectors 2 weeks before leaving for CFR, and they were ok. This comes on VERY quickly when it decides to go.

Will report/s] Just reported the issue to Transport Canada. Thanks for opening this thread to document the problem.

As an aside, Yamaha US tech support wasn't very helpful, according to the dealer. When the mechanic mentioned the spider, and that the customer (me) had pointed them directly to the problem without opening anything or doing any diagnostics, because the problem was well documented here, they (apparently) got very defensive and denied that this was a known issue. Seems pretty obvious to me...

Hopefully we can make enough noise to get this resolved, and QUICKLY, before someone gets hurt.

 

[road runner]

Seems like they are trained to not admit, or discuss any issues until they have a fix. Which kind of makes sense.

I am confident Yamaha will come up with a fix for this, because it seems to be effecting more and more bikes. I just hope they do before someone gets hurt.