FJRF011: Fast Starter Syndrome

[BikerGeek99]

Had this happen to me yesterday.

Scenario: the last 2 times the bike was run, it was for maybe 30 seconds, definitely not long enough to really warm up, then it sat for a week in the garage.

When I hit the starter yesterday (I did hear the fuel thingy make its noise), it initially caught - BRIEFLY - then did the fast starter thing. I was pissed and in a hurry, so I just pushed it aside and, for good measure, hooked up the battery tender and left it for a half-hour or so.

After making sure the battery had a full charge, I did the WFO and hold the starter process. After a couple of tries, I could see the exhaust gasses passing out of the garage. Once she finally fired, I had to keep the revs in the 2000 - 2500 range to keep 'er running. After warming up, and a quick ride behind the WallyWorld close by, she was fine.

For good measure I'm gonna toss in some Sea Foam for a tank or two.

My suspicion is that after the two times of only being run for a few seconds, an injector leaked a bit of fuel and flooded it. But what the hell do I know...

Oh - the bike is an '04 with 85,000 miles on it.

 

[Colin24]

Just had this happen to me again. Unlike the first time (see earlier post) the engine was turning over faster than usual, but not as fast as it was when it happened to me the first time.

I think this time I was suffering the same problem as everyone else (whatever that is). I basically held the starter and kept turning her over while moving the throttle around. It kept coughing and sputtering and finally after 1\2 minute to a minute of this lit up and ran on its own. Reved it a bit to clear its throat and its run fine since.

FWIW: I had ridden the bike home from the IBR National to my GF's place. A couple days later I drove it back to my place and did an oil change. (1\2 hour drive). After oil change a very quick warmup to verify oil level. Then the bike sat for about 5 days before I came over today and encountered the problem.

- Colin

 

[alchemy]

Just had this happen this evening. Hit the starter- plenty of power spinning it over, but no fire??? Ran just fine a few days ago. FML <sigh> Stripped off the body panels to check for a loose wire, checked fuses- all appears good? Come in and read over this thread, go back to the garage and hold the starter while goosing the throttle. BAM we have ignition after 30 seconds or so. Locked the throttle lock on at around 2500rpm for a fast warm up/idle. It bogged a bit and then smoothed out. Kicked the lock off and it went into normal idle. Turned the bike off and..... restarted just fine

Bike has 100,600 miles on it and this is the first I've had this particular issue crop up.

 

[FJRMGM]

Just happened to me at 99,300 miles for the second time in my FJR ownership.

Came home from EOM and parked the bike for about ten days. Went out to start it and it kinda coughed and sputtered once then no fire.

Tried the varying throttle position thing and almost had it before I ran the battery down. Charged the battery and then did the push starter button then turn key on and it backfired a little then started but ran like crap for a bit. I could really hear the injectors clatter too.

Ran it until it warmed up and throttled down then shut off and all is good now.

Funny thing, I ran a can of Sea Foam through it on the trip to EOM so the injectors should have been pretty clean.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Might be nice to have an option of cutting the power to the injectors (no fuel injected) and then cranking the engine a few revs to dry out the cylinders before attempting a start after the engine has been unused for several days.

Switch off the 12 volt power to the injectors and let the engine function as an air pump for a few seconds.

 

[RaiderBill]

1. Hard time starting my fjr this afternoon, hit the starter and turned over but no go( it usually fires right up). Hit it again, trying but nothing, after about 10 tries it finally sputters to life and then warms up fine and ran like a raped ape for a nice ride. Thought I was trying to start my rocket 3 again, that bike hated cool weather. I store it in a shed with a battery charger always on it and stabil in the tank, last had ridden it on Saturday. Only 15,200 miles on her.

 

[sath182]

This may have happened on my 72k mile 2001. After finishing my European road trip, I let it sit for 2 months with a half tank. The final day of the trip was rain the whole way and I suspect some may have entered the tank. When I spun the starter, nothing worked even after holding the button for 15+ seconds and alternating full and 0 throttle. I ended up pulling all four plugs, torching them dry, and spinning the starter until no more fog/mist came from the plug holes. After that the motor lit using the prescribed method at about 1/3 throttle.

 

[bwv]

2012, 4500 miles, hasnt been run since last ride ~2 months. Kept at steady 45 degrees f, in dry garage. Full tank Startron added and run through injectors.

Began to crank as normal, 2 seconds in no start,then sounded like no compression, fast crank. After no fire for 4 or 5 tries, applied WOT,cranked on 10 off 20 til starter slowed. Charged battery, cranked with varying throttle...bike fired intermittent at app 1/3 throttle...left there, started on 2or3 cyl...cleared up, great volumes white smoke and rich exhaust smell til 2bars, then fine for full warmup to fans cycling.

I'm thinking, fuel washed cylinders, low comp, flooded...

 

[HotRodZilla]

Don't think your garage conditions have anything to so with it. It's directly related to the last time you started your bike. Was it a cold start and then a shutoff a few seconds later? That seems to be what fills the cylinders with fuel and flood the bike.

 

[bwv]

Thank you HRZ

My last ride was December 22nd, for about 15 miles on the Startron treated E10 fuel

(Thank you again Forum ! ...I "remembered" that date and trip by going by my "I rode it" post in the W.D.Y.D.T.Y.FJR.T.? section).

I'm pretty sure I havent started it since then. It would be out of character for me to start an engine and then not let it warm up really well on something i knew I was gonna let sit for a long time.

I do agree it has to be something like the injectors leaking fuel into the jugs and washing the oil film off the cylinder walls (albeit hard to believe it could lose that much compression...but, it would be even harder for me to beleive it was leakign past the valves)... in hindsight, I am kickin' myself, as I probably should have pulled the plugs and put a couple drops of oil in there before cranking it so long trying to get it to start.

Hoping it doesnt recur, and wanted to add my information to this syndrome thread in the hopes that someone can use it.

If it happens again, I'll pull the plugs and put a couple drops of oil in there before cranking it that long.(feeling a little stupid for not doing that this time...)

 

[Fred W]

I do agree it has to be something like the injectors leaking fuel into the jugs and washing the oil film off the cylinder walls (albeit hard to believe it could lose that much compression...but, it would be even harder for me to beleive it was leakign past the valves)...

Not all that surprising. The valves are not a liquid tight seal. They are only tight enough to retain the rapid pressure build of compression and combustion from escaping from inside the cylinder.

Any time that you leak fuel onto the back side of the valves that liquid would eventually make its way into the cylinder.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I've never had an issue with starting no matter how long it sat. If stored for the winter, I put Seafoam in the tank and go for a short ride to run it through, then park it. Fast starter points to low compression, which may be crud build-up on the valve stems as one possibility. I would think cylinder wash is not the main culprit, as that should fix itself within the first few cranks, but maybe. It might be worth the trouble of removing the airbox and taking a peek into the intakes to see if there is significant build-up on the valve stems.

 

[bwv]

I doubt at 4500 miles theres a lot on my valve stems.. possible, but maybe unlikely.

And I agree cylinder wash should go away quicker...

But... Ya know.. now that I'm thinkin of it...

While I have not ridden it since December, and I have not started it since then...

I have turned the key on and off more than a couple of times, to get the glove box open, to raise the windsheild to clean it(and under it), to look at the mileage..whatever...

AND ... Each time i have cycled the key, the fuel system has pumped up...so if there is even a slight injector weep over time(a couple months), and/or if there is a stray pulse or two to the injectors maybe opening them ...even momentarily...maybe with each key cycle... there could be a bunch of fuel dropped in there..

And.. Valves leaking or not (You are probably right Fred, and they are indeed meant to seal from the other direction, and moreso with cylinder pressure)... they might have been in the open part of the cycle, and even if they didnt leak, the first crank would allow any fuel pooled behind them to fall right into the cylinder... washing the walls, and/or severely flooding it...

hmmmm

 

[lnewlf]

I doubt at 4500 miles theres a lot on my valve stems.. possible, but maybe unlikely.And I agree cylinder wash should go away quicker...

But... Ya know.. now that I'm thinkin of it...

While I have not ridden it since December, and I have not started it since then...

I have turned the key on and off more than a couple of times, to get the glove box open, to raise the windsheild to clean it(and under it), to look at the mileage..whatever...

AND ... Each time i have cycled the key, the fuel system has pumped up...so if there is even a slight injector weep over time(a couple months), and/or if there is a stray pulse or two to the injectors maybe opening them ...even momentarily...maybe with each key cycle... there could be a bunch of fuel dropped in there..

And.. Valves leaking or not (You are probably right Fred, and they are indeed meant to seal from the other direction, and moreso with cylinder pressure)... they might have been in the open part of the cycle, and even if they didnt leak, the first crank would allow any fuel pooled behind them to fall right into the cylinder... washing the walls, and/or severely flooding it...

hmmmm

If you turn the kill switch off you can cycle the key without the pump running..

 

[bwv]

Nice... Thank you.

I always think ignition when I see that switch... I would not have thought of that... You know... Forest... Trees...in this case, I wasnt smart 'nuff to look for either one...

I do honestly believe that may be the cause in my case... kinda stupid of me to keep pumping it up and leaving it. Almost 50psi... that is considerable.

 

[blrfjr]

Good thread! Thanks to all for your input and thanks to all for keeping this type of thread ON TOPIC!! Good info

 

[Cosmin]

My bike is also suffering from this syndrome - it happened till now in each spring after 2-3 months of keeping in the garage without starting the engine (during winter). My workaround (for saving the starter/battery life) was to take the bike out in the street, leave it take some 10-15mph speed to the valley (the road in front of the yard is a little steep) and releasing the clutch in 3rd with ignition on (years ago I used this method for my first car when I had problems with the battery). It finally starts with some momble/slight cough but I wasn't able to check the smoke - after less then a minute it runs smoothly...

In case the root cause is related to non-sealed injectors, one workaround could be draining the gas from fuel line before a long storage of the bike (leave the engine idle until it stalls with disconnected fuel pump electrical connector and even cranking some more to release all the gas from injectors and fuel rail). This would prevent gas leaking in the cylinders during long storage and should eliminate this issue but still I think this is not healthy for the injectors and fuel line (especially the rubber O-rings and parts which should remain sunk in gas for preventing aging).

 

[Cosmin]

On Friday I tried to start the bike after a parking it in the garage on 27.10.2013 (so almost 5 months - battery removed and periodically put on dedicated charger). As I expected, it almost started after 1-2 seconds of cranking (the front lights were put on by computer as if the engine started successfully) but immediately stopped. At the next attempts it starting cranking at high speed without any attempt to start. As usual (in each spring) I took the bike in the street, let it roll to the valley and easily started in 3rd gear.

I also tend to believe the version with leaking injectors; as mentioned before, I see 2 workarounds for preventing the "fast starter issue":

1) draining the fuel before long storage of the bike (leave the engine idle until it stalls with disconnected electrical connector of the fuel pump and cranking some more to release all the gas from injectors and fuel rail). Still this need to be confirmed by a more skilled member: keeping the injectors and fule rail almost "dry" in winter could damage rubber seal, nozzles etc?

2) blocking the throttle in wide-open position during long bike storage; this should allow a partial evaporation of the leaked gas to the air filter and, perhaps, through the air filter outside in the atmosphere. Don't know if this could work - in theory it should prevent the sparks from being wet be excessive gasoline - also this approach needs input from more skilled members

 

[Donal]

I remain to be convinced by the 'leaking injector' hypothesis. You can simulate this by starting the bike from cold and let it run briefly. Then shut it down for a short period and then try re-starting. The bike will sometimes 'catch' and get running but generally it will exhibit the fast starter symptoms.

My 'guess' is that there is something in the ECU start sequence that 'over fuels' during what it believes is a cold start. If the bike is run briefly i.e. not allowed to warm up to the point where it resets something in the start sequence, this condition is stored until the next attempt when an additional cold start routine is added to the stored event. This explains why the 'over fuelling' can occur even after the bike has been stored for a (very) long period. YMMV

 

[Just Krusen]

I had the same no start problem last Friday on my '13.

Started it the Sunday before for a few seconds checking something. Friday I'm all geared up ready to ride to GA and the bike won't start. It fired and died then just spun the motor. I did try the WOT but must not have cranked it long enough. After almost 2 hours of checking things out and charging the battery I tried it again. A sudden cough gave me hope and then I went WOT and it fired up. My weekend trip was saved!

I never liked firing up a motor without warming it up. Other motors usually just make ugly noises when fired up afterwards. This is the first vehicle I ever owned that would not start after a cold shut down.

Just a report that a 2013 had this problem. @15,500 miles

Edit for mileage